Tried clutch swap, I failed! Whats wrong?
10-11-2010, 09:06 PM
#1
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Tried clutch swap, I failed! Whats wrong? I just had my trans rebuilt and put in a new rear main seal and pilot bushing, put a new clutch in (RAM PowerGrip), then reinstalled the trans (I pulled/installed the trans and had D&D do the trans rebuild).
Everything seemed to go together just fine, but when I went to test it all out I realized that the shifter wouldn't go in gear with the engine off, then with the engine running it still wouldn't go in gear, and I felt the clutch pedal pulsing a bit.
What might be wrong? What are some good things to check without having to pull everything again?
UPDATE: It goes in gear fine now with the engine off, but still no luck with the engine running.
UPDATE #2: Resolved with new clutch disk (thinner, no marcels). Page 3.
Everything seemed to go together just fine, but when I went to test it all out I realized that the shifter wouldn't go in gear with the engine off, then with the engine running it still wouldn't go in gear, and I felt the clutch pedal pulsing a bit.
What might be wrong? What are some good things to check without having to pull everything again?
UPDATE: It goes in gear fine now with the engine off, but still no luck with the engine running.
UPDATE #2: Resolved with new clutch disk (thinner, no marcels). Page 3.
Last edited by 1quickTransAm; 11-13-2010 at 08:32 AM.
10-11-2010, 09:07 PM
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The only thing that I can think that I may have done wrong is that I did use the trans bolts to pull it up to the bellhousing, which I read you aren't supposed to do as it would bend the clutch disc if not properly aligned. It slide in pretty easy right up to where the guide pins touched the bellhousing but I had a hard time moving it forward. I figured that it was just the difficulty of trying to get the trans pins perfectly aligned to slide in with that big heavy trans hanging off one end.
10-12-2010, 08:37 PM
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Didn't change or do anything with the master cylinder.
I tried shifting it again today with the engine off (haven't changed anything) and the clutch pedal feel seems normal, but the gear lever just won't go in any gear. Makes me think it might be the clutch alignment. I would think the clutch pedal would feel off if the clutch fork slipped off the throwout bearing, right?
I tried shifting it again today with the engine off (haven't changed anything) and the clutch pedal feel seems normal, but the gear lever just won't go in any gear. Makes me think it might be the clutch alignment. I would think the clutch pedal would feel off if the clutch fork slipped off the throwout bearing, right?
10-12-2010, 08:53 PM
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Didn't change or do anything with the master cylinder.
I tried shifting it again today with the engine off (haven't changed anything) and the clutch pedal feel seems normal, but the gear lever just won't go in any gear. Makes me think it might be the clutch alignment. I would think the clutch pedal would feel off if the clutch fork slipped off the throwout bearing, right?
I tried shifting it again today with the engine off (haven't changed anything) and the clutch pedal feel seems normal, but the gear lever just won't go in any gear. Makes me think it might be the clutch alignment. I would think the clutch pedal would feel off if the clutch fork slipped off the throwout bearing, right?
10-12-2010, 08:53 PM
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If the clutch fork slipped off usually the pedal will go to the floor and stay or be really really hard to press. But its easy to check on the lt1 just take off the two bolts holding the slave and remove it. Did the trans slide in flush to the bellhousing before you bolted it down or did you have to suck it in with the bolts? Did you try and shift the trans out of the car before you installed it?
10-13-2010, 12:47 AM
#7
what did you TQ the PP bolts down to?
you really should not pull the tranny in with bolts....cold have damaged the pilot bearing. if in the process of stabing the tranny you let it hang with spline just in disc you could tweak it.
clutch release issues can be:
PP bolts tighter than 22 ft lbs
clutch fork not on right or bent/cracked
clutch fork stud lose
bad hydraulics
broken TO bearing
you really should not pull the tranny in with bolts....cold have damaged the pilot bearing. if in the process of stabing the tranny you let it hang with spline just in disc you could tweak it.
clutch release issues can be:
PP bolts tighter than 22 ft lbs
clutch fork not on right or bent/cracked
clutch fork stud lose
bad hydraulics
broken TO bearing
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10-13-2010, 09:56 PM
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Answers to the above questions & comments:
-I'm pretty sure the shifter ball is in the linkage... kinda hard to mess that one up. Plus, the pulsing of the clutch pedal doesn't jive with that theory (although I did only have the engine running for a few seconds before shutting it off as to not damage anything).
-I torqued to PP down to I think 25 ft-lbs. My torque wrench is a cheapie so I thought I would go a little higher, although that isn't always better.
-Clutch pedal feel pretty normal with the car off, but pulses a little with the engine running. I pressed the clutch fork onto the TO bearing, but it did seem to go on there pretty easy...much easier than it came off the old one.
-I did use the trans bolts to pull the trans up to the bellhousing, but this was only after the alignment pins were right up to their holes and the gaps around the trans were even, then I gently went around a little at a time. They tightened easily as if it didn't really have resistance. I am afraid that this may have been my mistake though.
-I did not let the trans hang from the spline at all. I had the jack under it until it was fully bolted up.
-I did not try shifting the trans prior to installing (that was dumb).
-If the pilot bushing is bad, how would that cause me to not be able to shift? I don't understand that.
-I'm pretty sure the shifter ball is in the linkage... kinda hard to mess that one up. Plus, the pulsing of the clutch pedal doesn't jive with that theory (although I did only have the engine running for a few seconds before shutting it off as to not damage anything).
-I torqued to PP down to I think 25 ft-lbs. My torque wrench is a cheapie so I thought I would go a little higher, although that isn't always better.
-Clutch pedal feel pretty normal with the car off, but pulses a little with the engine running. I pressed the clutch fork onto the TO bearing, but it did seem to go on there pretty easy...much easier than it came off the old one.
-I did use the trans bolts to pull the trans up to the bellhousing, but this was only after the alignment pins were right up to their holes and the gaps around the trans were even, then I gently went around a little at a time. They tightened easily as if it didn't really have resistance. I am afraid that this may have been my mistake though.
-I did not let the trans hang from the spline at all. I had the jack under it until it was fully bolted up.
-I did not try shifting the trans prior to installing (that was dumb).
-If the pilot bushing is bad, how would that cause me to not be able to shift? I don't understand that.
10-14-2010, 11:26 AM
#10
try an new master, the one from Tick is the easiest. I fabbed my own for less than 1/2. Were you instructed to shim the slave? BTW I went through 2 ram powergrips in less than a hear on H/c
10-14-2010, 12:27 PM
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Is it the stock shifter or aftermarket? If its an aftermarket with adjustments, check the adjustment screws. If they loosen up far enough, you wont be able to move the shifter.
10-14-2010, 01:24 PM
#14
If it wont go into gear with the motor off, its clearly something in the transmission. If it is ONLY hard to put in gear with the motor running, continue reading.
The disk is barely dragging when the clutch pedal is pressed meaning you are not getting complete release. I have seen it many times on this board with that RAM PG clutch. The damn thing is just hit and miss. I have posted in similar threads in very specific details why it happens and can be found with a search.
If you are keeping that clutch, you need the fork to move the TOB more in order to get full release. Only an aftermarket MC with more travel or more fluid displacement will do this. Or else, its try a different clutch. LT1 clutches are much tighter spec WRT the air gaps at full release compared to everything else.
The disk is barely dragging when the clutch pedal is pressed meaning you are not getting complete release. I have seen it many times on this board with that RAM PG clutch. The damn thing is just hit and miss. I have posted in similar threads in very specific details why it happens and can be found with a search.
If you are keeping that clutch, you need the fork to move the TOB more in order to get full release. Only an aftermarket MC with more travel or more fluid displacement will do this. Or else, its try a different clutch. LT1 clutches are much tighter spec WRT the air gaps at full release compared to everything else.
10-14-2010, 02:35 PM
#15
Interesting set of symptoms. Even if the disc was backwards the car should shift when turned off. Because the pedal is consistent and the pedal doesn't stick it is unlikely that this is relative to the fork having slipped out of the bearing. I think you are best looking at the shifter. This is the most logical point of issue due to the inability to shift with the car turned off. Let me know if you have any further questions. Thanks!
10-14-2010, 03:27 PM
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yea sounds like you have a couple issues on hand. first thing is figure out why the hell it wont go into gear with the car off, either something with the shifter or when you had it rebuilt, they messed something up, once it will shift with the car off, look into the clutch problem if there is still one....
10-14-2010, 04:16 PM
#17
Answers to the above questions & comments:
-I'm pretty sure the shifter ball is in the linkage... kinda hard to mess that one up. Plus, the pulsing of the clutch pedal doesn't jive with that theory (although I did only have the engine running for a few seconds before shutting it off as to not damage anything).
-I torqued to PP down to I think 25 ft-lbs. My torque wrench is a cheapie so I thought I would go a little higher, although that isn't always better.
-Clutch pedal feel pretty normal with the car off, but pulses a little with the engine running. I pressed the clutch fork onto the TO bearing, but it did seem to go on there pretty easy...much easier than it came off the old one.
-I did use the trans bolts to pull the trans up to the bellhousing, but this was only after the alignment pins were right up to their holes and the gaps around the trans were even, then I gently went around a little at a time. They tightened easily as if it didn't really have resistance. I am afraid that this may have been my mistake though.
-I did not let the trans hang from the spline at all. I had the jack under it until it was fully bolted up.
-I did not try shifting the trans prior to installing (that was dumb).
-If the pilot bushing is bad, how would that cause me to not be able to shift? I don't understand that.
-I'm pretty sure the shifter ball is in the linkage... kinda hard to mess that one up. Plus, the pulsing of the clutch pedal doesn't jive with that theory (although I did only have the engine running for a few seconds before shutting it off as to not damage anything).
-I torqued to PP down to I think 25 ft-lbs. My torque wrench is a cheapie so I thought I would go a little higher, although that isn't always better.
-Clutch pedal feel pretty normal with the car off, but pulses a little with the engine running. I pressed the clutch fork onto the TO bearing, but it did seem to go on there pretty easy...much easier than it came off the old one.
-I did use the trans bolts to pull the trans up to the bellhousing, but this was only after the alignment pins were right up to their holes and the gaps around the trans were even, then I gently went around a little at a time. They tightened easily as if it didn't really have resistance. I am afraid that this may have been my mistake though.
-I did not let the trans hang from the spline at all. I had the jack under it until it was fully bolted up.
-I did not try shifting the trans prior to installing (that was dumb).
-If the pilot bushing is bad, how would that cause me to not be able to shift? I don't understand that.
given the description on how you pulled the tranny in, doubt that is the issue
bad/damaged pilot bearing would not prevent shifting.
as mentioned sounds like there is issue with tranny itself
10-16-2010, 05:33 PM
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UPDATE: I went out to my car again today and tried to bleed the master cylinder, but there really weren't any air bubbles coming up. Then when I went to re-install the actuator cylinder I noticed that it slipped out of the indent on the clutch fork (I am guessing this is what was wrong last time too now) so I was careful to make sure that it stayed seat.
Now the car shifts just fine with the engine off, but still will not go in gear with the engine running. I read somewhere about another guy who had this problem and it turned out that his CAGS and reverse lockout plugs were mixed up so I am going to go check that.
Any other ideas guys? Thanks for all the input so far.
Now the car shifts just fine with the engine off, but still will not go in gear with the engine running. I read somewhere about another guy who had this problem and it turned out that his CAGS and reverse lockout plugs were mixed up so I am going to go check that.
Any other ideas guys? Thanks for all the input so far.
10-16-2010, 07:20 PM
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Plugs were all correct. Tried bleeding the master cylinder more, but no change.
I do feel the clutch pedal pulsing a little bit. What would cause that? Could I have pushed the pilot bushing back further and not actually be in it? That could cause the pulsing, but would that result in being upable to shift?
Anyway, I am planning on getting up early tomorrow to start tearing into it again.
I do feel the clutch pedal pulsing a little bit. What would cause that? Could I have pushed the pilot bushing back further and not actually be in it? That could cause the pulsing, but would that result in being upable to shift?
Anyway, I am planning on getting up early tomorrow to start tearing into it again.
Last edited by 1quickTransAm; 10-16-2010 at 07:31 PM.
10-17-2010, 12:57 PM
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Pulled the transmission out again today. Everything seemed okay. I am pretty sure that it was correctly aligned with the clutch and the pilot bearing seeing as how it was fully bolted up and the pilot bearing was still in the correct place (not pushed further in).
After pulling the trans I tried to alignment tool again and it was able to go in and out pretty easy, but it did drag a little. However, I can't image this being an issue since the trans was able to fully bolt up.
I measured my RAM clutch thickness since I heard this was an issue sometimes, and it is right about 0.325" average with thinnest being 0.316" and thickest being 0.332". What is it supposed to be? From what I have found that seems about right.
Only other thing worth noting is that the detent spring/fingers on the clutch fork were a little loose. They still kept it in/engaged, but with quite a bit of play. Think this could have been the issue?
PLEASE KEEP REPLYING GUYS!!! I still need some help
After pulling the trans I tried to alignment tool again and it was able to go in and out pretty easy, but it did drag a little. However, I can't image this being an issue since the trans was able to fully bolt up.
I measured my RAM clutch thickness since I heard this was an issue sometimes, and it is right about 0.325" average with thinnest being 0.316" and thickest being 0.332". What is it supposed to be? From what I have found that seems about right.
Only other thing worth noting is that the detent spring/fingers on the clutch fork were a little loose. They still kept it in/engaged, but with quite a bit of play. Think this could have been the issue?
PLEASE KEEP REPLYING GUYS!!! I still need some help
Last edited by 1quickTransAm; 10-17-2010 at 01:09 PM.