Let's talk about lightweight clutch/Flywheel combo's
10-07-2015, 07:46 PM
#61
10-08-2015, 04:14 PM
#62
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The problem that arises for those who like to drag race a c5 is that most people have a hard time launching these cars especially with a dual disk clutch that hits much harder than stock.
Now couple that with the fact that most people also don't want to run slicks which are best for the strip.
So now you have a lightweight clutch with a very small MOI that hits relatively hard in a traction limited rear wheel drive car with 3.42 gears and a wide drag radial( because wider is always better) and that translates into someone who can't launch the car to save his/her life. Not to mention the increased potential for wheel hop which is inherent to these cars with the wrong setup or wrong technique. Plus with the above setup in a c5Z you'll have to rev the car high in the rpm band to launch it properly which increase the risk of driveline failure especially with a fragile c5 stock rear differential. So, if you want to spend a bit of time drag racing your c5Z and cut a good 60' than consider all of this. And a mild bolt on c5Z probably makes ~375whp so that should also help determine the clutch necessary.
Now couple that with the fact that most people also don't want to run slicks which are best for the strip.
So now you have a lightweight clutch with a very small MOI that hits relatively hard in a traction limited rear wheel drive car with 3.42 gears and a wide drag radial( because wider is always better) and that translates into someone who can't launch the car to save his/her life. Not to mention the increased potential for wheel hop which is inherent to these cars with the wrong setup or wrong technique. Plus with the above setup in a c5Z you'll have to rev the car high in the rpm band to launch it properly which increase the risk of driveline failure especially with a fragile c5 stock rear differential. So, if you want to spend a bit of time drag racing your c5Z and cut a good 60' than consider all of this. And a mild bolt on c5Z probably makes ~375whp so that should also help determine the clutch necessary.
10-08-2015, 05:01 PM
#63
The problem that arises for those who like to drag race a c5 is that most people have a hard time launching these cars especially with a dual disk clutch that hits much harder than stock.
Now couple that with the fact that most people also don't want to run slicks which are best for the strip.
So now you have a lightweight clutch with a very small MOI that hits relatively hard in a traction limited rear wheel drive car with 3.42 gears and a wide drag radial( because wider is always better) and that translates into someone who can't launch the car to save his/her life. Not to mention the increased potential for wheel hop which is inherent to these cars with the wrong setup or wrong technique. Plus with the above setup in a c5Z you'll have to rev the car high in the rpm band to launch it properly which increase the risk of driveline failure especially with a fragile c5 stock rear differential. So, if you want to spend a bit of time drag racing your c5Z and cut a good 60' than consider all of this. And a mild bolt on c5Z probably makes ~375whp so that should also help determine the clutch necessary.
Now couple that with the fact that most people also don't want to run slicks which are best for the strip.
So now you have a lightweight clutch with a very small MOI that hits relatively hard in a traction limited rear wheel drive car with 3.42 gears and a wide drag radial( because wider is always better) and that translates into someone who can't launch the car to save his/her life. Not to mention the increased potential for wheel hop which is inherent to these cars with the wrong setup or wrong technique. Plus with the above setup in a c5Z you'll have to rev the car high in the rpm band to launch it properly which increase the risk of driveline failure especially with a fragile c5 stock rear differential. So, if you want to spend a bit of time drag racing your c5Z and cut a good 60' than consider all of this. And a mild bolt on c5Z probably makes ~375whp so that should also help determine the clutch necessary.
So are you saying you're against a lightweight set up? Or just when it comes to a corvette?
10-08-2015, 05:19 PM
#64
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Well put Rob. People that don't do research generally run into the issues you mentioned. Have you seen people at the drag strip with a super light clutch in a C5Z having problems? In the future I'll be running on slicks and skinnies. I've found its a waste of money to run drag radials and drive on them all the time. 1. The et streets aren't the safest scenario and 2. They wear out too fast if you put miles on them. I'd rather throw my drag purpose set up on when needed.
So are you saying you're against a lightweight set up? Or just when it comes to a corvette?
So are you saying you're against a lightweight set up? Or just when it comes to a corvette?
If someone told me I had $1500 for parts to modify my stock c5z for the drag strip and had to run a radial I'd get:
- 4.10 ring and pinion installed myself $350
- CAI $250
- Hoosier 255 50 16's aired up to $450
- Used 16" rims $400
- Cheap video camera to film my mid 11 sec. pass $50
It if didn't run mid 11's in good air in the fall here I drive off a pier into the Atlantic, carefully mark the location with my GPS, and bottom fish over it a month or 2 later.
-
10-08-2015, 05:27 PM
#65
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Have you seen people at the drag strip with a super light clutch in a C5Z having problems? Yes, all the time esp. with hard hitting dual disk clutches
In the future I'll be running on slicks and skinnies.
Good, you should have separate tires for street and strip.
So are you saying you're against a lightweight set up? Or just when it comes to a corvette?
Yes when speaking of drag racing a late model street corvettes when you fist get it and have under 400whp.
In the future I'll be running on slicks and skinnies.
Good, you should have separate tires for street and strip.
So are you saying you're against a lightweight set up? Or just when it comes to a corvette?
Yes when speaking of drag racing a late model street corvettes when you fist get it and have under 400whp.
10-08-2015, 06:00 PM
#66
The problem that arises for those who like to drag race a c5 is that most people have a hard time launching these cars especially with a dual disk clutch that hits much harder than stock.
Now couple that with the fact that most people also don't want to run slicks which are best for the strip.
So now you have a lightweight clutch with a very small MOI that hits relatively hard in a traction limited rear wheel drive car with 3.42 gears and a wide drag radial( because wider is always better) and that translates into someone who can't launch the car to save his/her life. Not to mention the increased potential for wheel hop which is inherent to these cars with the wrong setup or wrong technique. Plus with the above setup in a c5Z you'll have to rev the car high in the rpm band to launch it properly which increase the risk of driveline failure especially with a fragile c5 stock rear differential. So, if you want to spend a bit of time drag racing your c5Z and cut a good 60' than consider all of this. And a mild bolt on c5Z probably makes ~375whp so that should also help determine the clutch necessary.
Now couple that with the fact that most people also don't want to run slicks which are best for the strip.
So now you have a lightweight clutch with a very small MOI that hits relatively hard in a traction limited rear wheel drive car with 3.42 gears and a wide drag radial( because wider is always better) and that translates into someone who can't launch the car to save his/her life. Not to mention the increased potential for wheel hop which is inherent to these cars with the wrong setup or wrong technique. Plus with the above setup in a c5Z you'll have to rev the car high in the rpm band to launch it properly which increase the risk of driveline failure especially with a fragile c5 stock rear differential. So, if you want to spend a bit of time drag racing your c5Z and cut a good 60' than consider all of this. And a mild bolt on c5Z probably makes ~375whp so that should also help determine the clutch necessary.
I think what you're saying is that a dual disk clutch will not slip like a single when you drop it and thats true in some cases however the moi is the real reason it becomes harder to launch. A good single like a monster level 3 isnt hitting any less hard than a single when you drop it so that point is sort of moot when you get into really good frictions like a monster level 3 or spec 3+. A lighter dual disk clutch will not shock the drivetrain worse than a heavy single. Thik about it you're unloading 50lbs of inertia onto the tires at one time vs 25 maybe with the other, the slightly increased rpm wont make up that. The reason a lighter clutch is harder to launch is because it transfers LESS inertia (shock) to the drivetrain making it bog if not enough throttle is given. Given the same rpm the heavier clutch has more of a chance to spin the tires because it transfers MORE energy.
The moi thing is a tradeoff but it still doesnt mean the car isnt launchable with a little practice. Hio's car weighs the sameas a c5z and cuts 1.6 60's so ya with practice its not hard. I can easily launch my 34 lb setup without bogging as well. Have you personally tried a light clutch?
It sounds to me like you would rather have a 50lb clutch robbing you of power ever second you're running through the gears than practicing your launch. Thats an ok approach for a lot of people but I want the most performance possible with what power I make.
10-08-2015, 09:20 PM
#67
11 Second Club
Made up a short video driving around the block (sorry for the wind noise). To demonstrate how easy it is to modulate, towards the end of the video from a stop I do a 1-2-3 shift. Really is easy to drive once you drive it a couple times.
They all used iron blocks up through 2005.
Wow, that Mini Twin is sexy. I went back and forth on that clutch and the SuperTwin when I was shopping. I'd love to hear your feedback once you have it installed.
Wow, that Mini Twin is sexy. I went back and forth on that clutch and the SuperTwin when I was shopping. I'd love to hear your feedback once you have it installed.
10-08-2015, 10:04 PM
#68
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Those 2 statement contradict themselves. One one hand you're a dual disk will hit harder than stock and on the other hand you're saying it will hit less because it has less moi.
I think what you're saying is that a dual disk clutch will not slip like a single when you drop it and thats true in some cases however the moi is the real reason it becomes harder to launch. A good single like a monster level 3 isnt hitting any less hard than a single when you drop it so that point is sort of moot when you get into really good frictions like a monster level 3 or spec 3+. A lighter dual disk clutch will not shock the drivetrain worse than a heavy single. Thik about it you're unloading 50lbs of inertia onto the tires at one time vs 25 maybe with the other, the slightly increased rpm wont make up that. The reason a lighter clutch is harder to launch is because it transfers LESS inertia (shock) to the drivetrain making it bog if not enough throttle is given. Given the same rpm the heavier clutch has more of a chance to spin the tires because it transfers MORE energy.
The moi thing is a tradeoff but it still doesnt mean the car isnt launchable with a little practice. Hio's car weighs the sameas a c5z and cuts 1.6 60's so ya with practice its not hard. I can easily launch my 34 lb setup without bogging as well. Have you personally tried a light clutch?
It sounds to me like you would rather have a 50lb clutch robbing you of power ever second you're running through the gears than practicing your launch. Thats an ok approach for a lot of people but I want the most performance possible with what power I make.
I think what you're saying is that a dual disk clutch will not slip like a single when you drop it and thats true in some cases however the moi is the real reason it becomes harder to launch. A good single like a monster level 3 isnt hitting any less hard than a single when you drop it so that point is sort of moot when you get into really good frictions like a monster level 3 or spec 3+. A lighter dual disk clutch will not shock the drivetrain worse than a heavy single. Thik about it you're unloading 50lbs of inertia onto the tires at one time vs 25 maybe with the other, the slightly increased rpm wont make up that. The reason a lighter clutch is harder to launch is because it transfers LESS inertia (shock) to the drivetrain making it bog if not enough throttle is given. Given the same rpm the heavier clutch has more of a chance to spin the tires because it transfers MORE energy.
The moi thing is a tradeoff but it still doesnt mean the car isnt launchable with a little practice. Hio's car weighs the sameas a c5z and cuts 1.6 60's so ya with practice its not hard. I can easily launch my 34 lb setup without bogging as well. Have you personally tried a light clutch?
It sounds to me like you would rather have a 50lb clutch robbing you of power ever second you're running through the gears than practicing your launch. Thats an ok approach for a lot of people but I want the most performance possible with what power I make.
As I stated very specifically above, this information is geared toward new c5 owners, like Scott, who like to drag race a lot with their street cars with 400hp or less.
But the real question here is how many c5's have you had experience with launching with different clutches?
I get that you are proud of your clutch and it can be effective in the 1/4 mile if you have the car setup well, and of course it will help down track but it's not the right clutch for a new c5z owner who needs to learn the how to launch the car. That's what I'm saying.
And my next question here is: "Why change out the clutch at all?"
Here's why you shouldn't.
1) It's a huge expense for parts and labor
2) There's a significant chance there can be an issue with the install (ask thousands of c5 owners).
3) Some clutches chatter and have other inherent problems
4) A clutch that locks up isn't good for launching and shifts
5) Aftermarket clutches are harder on the driveline
6) More prone to wheelhop
etc..
Furthermore the c5z clutch has held up to 100's of launches in bolt on cars.
Some of us have done so without parts failure on the drag strip. These clutches recover very well also.
And the stock clutch is good for 1.6x's and better with practice.
There's a c6 owner who I've helped over the years who has something like 400 passes on his stock c6 clutch and cuts 1.4x's at will with gears and around 450whp.
My advice is that unless your clutch is failing on a consistent basis in a c5 then keep it in there and learn the launch with it with less chance of wheel hop and driveline shock. Take that $2000 and get the proper tires, gears, or headers and tune or some combination similar.
I bet Doug's lightweight Tilton, besides his well thought out setup, and great driving contributes to his impressive mph in the 1/4. Now if his Tilton was cutting 1.2x's vs. 1.5'x on the stock clutch, I might say it's worth it. ( sorry, I had to, inside jk)
But I can't tell you how many people struggle to launch their vettes with hard hitting dual disk clutches. And once you break the rear in these cars and it takes out the trans you'll be gun shy for a long time if you can afford to get it rebuilt right away.
Just looking out for other c5 bruthas with no motives or agenda other than to help them not make some of the mistakes I see happen all the time. And this is all assuming the OP and other are drag racing a lot with the car and are trying to cut a good 60'.
Last edited by vetteboy2k; 10-08-2015 at 10:35 PM.
10-09-2015, 06:06 AM
#69
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Lol....thanks for the dig vetteboy 
I thing scotty is looking to do a somewhat serious fbo set up with his vette......like 10's not mid 11's. One thing for sure you can help guide him there. But I'll take a light clutch over the stocker and think it's money well spent anyday.
I thing scotty is looking to do a somewhat serious fbo set up with his vette......like 10's not mid 11's. One thing for sure you can help guide him there. But I'll take a light clutch over the stocker and think it's money well spent anyday.
10-09-2015, 07:28 AM
#70
10-09-2015, 08:26 AM
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That's my plan. I already have a nice pile of parts. I've been considering a Mamo ported FAST 102 and I have my eye on a NW 102 on EBay. I'll most likely have all the bolt on’s I can think of excluding a vacuum pump and a crank scraper lol. Clutch selection will be one of the last things I purchase. Might as well have a little fun on the stock piece and when it starts to fail I'll upgrade accordingly. Hopefully by then I will have enough "practice" under my belt to qualify me to buy a twin disc lol.
Consider gears as an option too.
You guys should come up/down to a track rental here and we can work on the 1/4 mile times. I'm basically retired from racing and spend most of my time with other people's cars. I'll probably wind up selling my ride. Will be at Atco on October 23rd also be down at MIR in early November. I may bring my ride so my friend can take a few passes. Doug, that would be right up your alley.
10-09-2015, 11:21 AM
#72
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Man I would love to meet up with you guys but I won't even get my car to the track this year. Just have to much domestic stuff on my plate to worry about tearin up my car right now. There was also some changes I wanted to make and just can't seem to get to them. My shop has been full with my work.....which is good. But hard to get anything done to my own stuff.
Hopefully I can get the stuff done by spring I would like to do.
Hopefully I can get the stuff done by spring I would like to do.
11-01-2015, 05:19 PM
#73
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Redbird555, have you gotten that spec clutch installed yet? On the link you told me about they said it wasn't recommended for daily street driving. What is your take on that, and do you know of any other reviews on it?
Thanks!
Thanks!
11-01-2015, 07:24 PM
#74
Which link was that bud? On their website its for limited street driving. When I spoke to them they said it would be fine with some daily slips. Cobranotch on here used to run one and he had about 8-10k on his daily driving before the car gt wrecked. Bighammer runs one as well I believe he has about 4k on his. Mine will be in soon just trying to find a free weekend lol
11-01-2015, 09:48 PM
#75
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Which link was that bud? On their website its for limited street driving. When I spoke to them they said it would be fine with some daily slips. Cobranotch on here used to run one and he had about 8-10k on his daily driving before the car gt wrecked. Bighammer runs one as well I believe he has about 4k on his. Mine will be in soon just trying to find a free weekend lol
I'm going to make a decision in the next month or so before I put my new drivetrain in the truck so your feedback would be greatly appreciated! Now go get that thing in there!
11-20-2015, 08:52 AM
#76
I talked to more people about the lightweight combo on a Z06 page. Not one person is in favor of them. Most of the comments pertain to the car bogging horribly and breaking **** on a dead hook with the lighter clutch.
Maybe they are right? Maybe not enough people have tried them?
I'm starting to see what Vetteboy is talking about when pertaining to a C5. Maybe the lightweight combo is better suited for an F body?
Maybe they are right? Maybe not enough people have tried them?
I'm starting to see what Vetteboy is talking about when pertaining to a C5. Maybe the lightweight combo is better suited for an F body?
11-20-2015, 08:36 PM
#77
On The Tree
No......Ask the guys that race, not the guys that pay other guys to do the thinking for them.
I completely disagree witih the heavy flywheel combo. Sure it's easy to just let off the clutch, and get going, perfect for towers. But, if you are racing, I bet you will practice a little anyways, and then it is completely negligible. Lighter is faster. From corvettes, to dirtbikes...
I just finished installing a ACT twin in my car today, 36lbs, and I was upset that it was that heavy. But, needed the tq capacity.
Just order whatever fits your fancy. Daily cruiser, doesn't matter. Drag racing a dually?....heavier....Drag racing a 3000lb z06, which is what I have......Lighter.
I completely disagree witih the heavy flywheel combo. Sure it's easy to just let off the clutch, and get going, perfect for towers. But, if you are racing, I bet you will practice a little anyways, and then it is completely negligible. Lighter is faster. From corvettes, to dirtbikes...
I just finished installing a ACT twin in my car today, 36lbs, and I was upset that it was that heavy. But, needed the tq capacity.
Just order whatever fits your fancy. Daily cruiser, doesn't matter. Drag racing a dually?....heavier....Drag racing a 3000lb z06, which is what I have......Lighter.
11-20-2015, 10:56 PM
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I talked to more people about the lightweight combo on a Z06 page. Not one person is in favor of them. Most of the comments pertain to the car bogging horribly and breaking **** on a dead hook with the lighter clutch.
Maybe they are right? Maybe not enough people have tried them?
I'm starting to see what Vetteboy is talking about when pertaining to a C5. Maybe the lightweight combo is better suited for an F body?
Maybe they are right? Maybe not enough people have tried them?
I'm starting to see what Vetteboy is talking about when pertaining to a C5. Maybe the lightweight combo is better suited for an F body?
11-21-2015, 06:03 AM
#79
I don't see how a lighter flywheel by itself is going to break parts, simple physics says it should take a lot of stress and initial shock off of the rest of the drivetrain because it wouldn't hit as hard. Like swinging a lighter hammer vs a heavier one, the heavier one will always hit harder if swung at the same speed. Now if it was paired with an aftermarket, very grabby clutch then I could see that happening.
Hio that posted above has a super light set up and has drag raced his car a bunch. I'm sure he can vouch for how it is launching it.
