scotty2000ss

iTrader: (2)

Plan on posting any videos driving around with the new clutch?

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Yes I will. I just need to get the wheels down and fine tune the master cylinder adjustments. Was hoping to get it tonight, but had prior plans.

Exidous

iTrader: (11)

I've come back to this thread just to look at the pics about 7 times. I want one to hang up on the wall.

I've done the whole pull trans replace clutch on 4 gorilla ramps solo using hand tools and a low pro floor jack three times now. IT SUCKS but it totally possible. Good on ya man! Have to do it again in the next week or so because I've got an RPM specific vibration and I'm suspecting the flywheel/pp combo. 2000-2300RPM the vibration is pretty bad but gets better after that.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Holy ****** **** this is a great clutch!

Took all of two minutes to get used to, no chatter, very smooth, quiet engagement, holds power

****** A, I'm stoked! I ran it full throttle once and it severely roasted the tires. Severely. And I have 305's on it

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

It IS the "Holy Grail" of street/strip clutches....

I have driven high powered manually shifted cars since 1980 and all types of clutches along the way. The ones that worked great from a performance standpoint all had so many trade-offs associated with them it took away from the fun of driving your car (noise, chatter, really stiff pedal, etc.).....the ones that drove nice didn't shift well, were too heavy making the engine lazy, or couldn't hold the power. This clutch design does it all honestly and does it with zero compromises (besides the cost of admission)....and it should last the lifetime of your car with the carbon based friction materials.

You do get what you pay for in life more times than not.....this is just another prime example of that situation.

I'm thrilled your finally experiencing it.....I can recall many conversations we had 6 months ago about this clutch and your desire to own one.

With the exhaust and the new clutch the car must feel like you just stepped it up another notch....must be really fun to drive now!





Talk soon.....let me know in advance about the next dyno day. I may try and make it out there....just depends what I have on my plate at that time

Cheers,
Tony

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

I'm really glad I saved up for this one rather than letting the price tag scare me off.

Look, being real, it sucks sometimes when you pay so much for something and you see cheaper options out there, but when you get it in the car, and you don't have to settle or "live with" an issue, excusing it as a natural consequence of a performance vehicle, the pain disappears quickly.

I've done one budget build and one full-on build in the same vehicle, and I doubt I'll ever do another budget build. It is so much nicer knowing there is nothing left on the table, there were no compromises, and the car is easy to drive.

dailydriver

Thanks!

It seems that I have yet another item to start saving my pennies for (it will take A LOT of them. ).

But this thing IS a 'work of art and science', almost too pretty to cover up!


You're probably correct on what Danny is using in his C5 Z06, but, they are required to do a 30+ mile street rally/cruise type deal to prove that they ARE actually street cars, so I doubt it can be a TOTAL on/off switch like some of the tiny, weightless road race clutches are.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

When these tiny weightless road race clutches are attached to a 50+lb crank with 8 almost 4inch pistons bopping around they tend to be forced to straighten their act up


Mine has 40,000 miles on it.....and my ex gf used to dd it. How hard can it be?

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

OK, here is a list of light clutch tuning tips. It was much harder to get the motor to settle down than I expected. Part of it is the reduced MOI, and part of it is that the motor is so damned responsive. The engine reacts faster than the IAC can react to the motor, so once it started hunting, it was almost impossible to settle it down.

I would definitely not suggest installing a light clutch on a performance engine without owning good tuning software - like HPT or EFILive, not something basic like the handhelds. You will need to invest some serious time into getting a good idle, and to pay a tuner to invest the time will be close to the cost of owning the software.

0. Save your tune so you have a baseline to go back to. Don't change your current tune and not be able to go back to a known state or you may end up having to go all the way back to stock.

1. Disable the idle proportional fueling. This adds and cuts fuel to keep the O2's switching at idle. Problem is, the motor wants to run "lean" at idle if you've got a performance cam in. It's not actually lean, but the O2's read false lean, so the amount of proportional fueling is high to get the O2's switching. Causes a perfectly rhythmic 2-second surge pattern.

2. Cut way back on proportional integral and derivative idle tables. You have to slow the IAC down so it makes smaller, slower movements.

3. Take the IAC calibration values and move them 6 cells to the right. This greatly helps with getting it to move less.

4. Raise the idle RPM. You're not going to idle at 750 with a light clutch and a choppy cam. I'm at 1000 to get it stable.

5. Be prepared to open the set screw or drill the throttle. If you have Electronic Throttle, maybe things are easier. You will need more idle air and a higher RPM. Part of this is to make the IAC a lower percentage of the overall incoming air, so when it adjusts, it is a relatively smaller adjustment.

6. The throttle cracker will throw it into a loop. I now have very little cracker air. However, the follower is a big help for low RPM off idle surging, so you shouldn't just disable by setting to a very high on/off speed.

7. You will end up doing a lot of TPS resets and idle learn cycles. Don't try to take short cuts. Make a change, relearn it.

8. If you get WAY out of whack, go back to the stock tune idle settings and start over.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Good info...glad you sorted it out.

Welcome to the world of Light clutches

scotty2000ss

iTrader: (2)

Hope we get to see some in car videos of it revving

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

I know this isn't the tuning section, but it's more relevant to this discussion, anyway

After doing everything above, it would still hunt around between 800 and 1200, and I really don't like it idling at 1000, so I decided to try a different approach to the idle, and I really think this method is great after you have the car where it will start up and stay running and is basically "Close". If it won't even do that much, this won't help you.

Most of this is using the scanner, not the editor, but you'll see why in a minute. Also, your base running airflow needs to at least be close for this to work for you:

1. Get the motor good and hot and idling.

2. in the scanner, open the bi-directional controls - where you can turn stuff on and off.

3. Find the minimum MAP timing number as I described in the other post, and leave the timing there. Set the timing to that number, and make sure it holds steady. Set the idle control to "On", which actually turns it off. Then, over in the "special" tab set the IAC position to a number that is right in the middle of where it wants to idle at or near your desired RPM.

4. Watch the RPMs for a few minutes. Mine bounced around from about 930 to 1100 with no air, fuel, or timing changes. What this means is that any attempt to control air to a smaller range than this will actually CAUSE, not prevent, RPM hunting. The IAC can't react fast enough.

5. So, I figure this is +/- 75 RPM, and I made that the minimum error to even engage the proportional air control. I set the integral to 25, but the adjustment here is so small, it doesn't do as much as the proportional anyway. So, within 75 rpm, there will be no adjustments to idle air, so the IAC stays fixed.

6. In the main spark tables, I set the timing number from step 3 in the idle regions. In those same regions in the idle table, I set this to 28. Here is why: At that timing peak, either increasing or decreasing timing will result in a loss of torque, and a drop in RPM, which induces hunting. by setting it to 28, I give some room for the ECU to add spark to help prevent stalling. Also, when coasting down, you'll idle at 33 degrees. When you stop, it'll drop to 28 degrees. This will give you a bit of added torque when steering or braking to help prevent stumbling - similar to the cracker adding airflow for the same reason.

7. Then, in the over/underspeed tables, I set 25 rpm error to 1 degree timing, 50 to 2, 75 to 3, and 100 to 4 degrees. anything beyond 100, I also set to 4. The basic premise here is that within 100 rpm of the target, use spark controls only to fine-tune the idle speed. Beyond 100, make an airflow adjustment.

8. Flash all this to the car and start her up. Should hold pretty steady. Might end up tweaking the amount of timing you use between the deadband of no air adjustments, but it stabilized mine to +/- 25 RPM.

9. Now, you can go back to the scanner and manually control the RPM to see how low you can take it without either starting to surge or else you run out of IAC. In my case, just below 800 RPM, I ran out of IAC (zero counts), but at 850, it wanted to resume surging. Restoring a 900-rpm set point settled it right down. took a note of the commanded airflow of the desired RPM, and I put that value back into the RAF table at operating temp.

10. I then set idle speed to 900 at operating temp, and am now waiting for another cold start to log the RAF for the rest of the temperature range.

After doing all this, I was able to drop the idle speed down to 900. I did not attempt to go any lower, because I ran out of IAC (starting getting zero counts) at 800, but it was surging at 850, anyway.

The lesson learned here was that the ECU was not capable of using airflow to hold any more stable than +/- 75rpm. That is how much cam surge is present. Any attempt to control cam surge with airflow seems to induce more surging than it prevents. I needed to take the time to figure out how much the cam would surge on its own before screwing around with air adjustments. However, the ECU IS capable to using spark to hold to a very fine number. I just had to figure out to tell it to only use spark if it's in the cam surge window, or airflow if it's outside the cam surge window, but not both at the same time (which effectively doubled the adjustment) every time.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Good post darth. Yea the iac don't react nearly as fast as it needs to.

stevieturbo

That's why a lot of OEM ecu's also use ignition timing as an idle control strategy. It is fast, so used in conjunction with the air bypass there is a wide range of control available.

scotty2000ss

iTrader: (2)

Any updates on this? Still liking it?

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Still loving it. I don't have a good driving around video to post, but I've been able to feather a 3K rpm start chatter free. I need a third hand to film driving. I just need to find a time to run around with a passenger when something isn't on my mind or I'm not in s hurry.

Quite easy to drive. Narrow engagement window but that has as much to do with the tick master as anything.

HioSSilver

iTrader: (8)

Yea.....a smaller master would be a bit more forgiving.

98_WS6_M6

iTrader: (18)

Is the Tick Master cylinder not optimal for this clutch setup?

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

Maybe not, but I like it. It's a narrow window, but it's more consistent vs the stock master. My pedal always does exactly the same thing vs what it used to do on several stock masters

Harder to feather, but nuts on when I want to make twin black stripes at a red light.

Tony @ Mamo Motorsports

Both work fine but technically the clutch is actually designed to work with the OEM hydraulics.

The original designs in the first few prototypes I drove (5+ years ago) required the larger clutch master to get the most from the set-up and I encouraged Rob to look into a different pressure plate design that gave the same throw with less movement of the actual throw out bearing in the bellhousing which is what the hydraulics are operating.

The newer plate designs are basically just that and don't require the larger master/longer throw to get the clean disengagement etc. The other benefit of the stock hydraulics is a slightly lighter clutch pedal (and the larger engagement window). Biggest benefit of the larger master is a really short amount of clutch travel from rest point to making a clean shift.....with a pedal stop in the mix you can get some real quick shifts off with the small amount of throw required.....even the stock hydraulics have a short throw but its exaggerated with the larger aftermarket master cylinders.

My advice for most that purchase this clutch from me......if you still have the OEM hydraulics just leave things be and try it that way.....most would be very happy with the overall results and its a little more "stock" in feel with a slight softer pedal and slightly larger engagement window.



Hope this helps!

-Tony