buschman

Well I was trying to get it into reverse today and [sarcasm]thanks to my trusty McLeod master cylinder[/sacasm] I had to grind it into Reverse to get the Hawk backed up.

It seems there are times when the pedal pressure is right on and shifting is smooth. This is usually when the car has been running for a while and being run under 4.5K RPM. However there are other times when shifting is anything but smooth. The pedal feels very limp and no pressure is building up. I usually have to pump it 5-10 times to get pressure built up enough. Sometimes it will stay built up, but like this morning sometimes it will go away after a couple of shifts and my pdeal has almost no pressure again. When it's acting like this shifting is near impossible. The engagement point is right on the floor and the tranny just struggles to get into gear. I'm assuming the shifting is slow and tough because the synchros are doing the work that the clutch should be doing, but it's not fully disengaging.

Is anyone else having problems like this with their McLeod? If you're thinking it's the bleed I seriously doubt it. I spoke to Jason at Thunder Racing. He suggested several methods to bleed the M/C. I've tried them all and still the problem persists. This isn't even my first McLeod M/C. I sent the first one back cause it was not functioning properly. Now I get this one and it too seems to have problems.

What are you opinions? I need to get this hashed out this off season. I was running a 12.9 on the Z06 clutch, now that I'm 20 rwhp stronger and have the new McLeod clutch and M/C I'm running a 13.1! These are not the gains I was hoping for from my investment.

Give me your thoughts? If you've had problems with your McLeod M/C let me know. If you think the M/C is not my problem let me know. If you know of a better M/C let me know. I'll consider anything at this point. I'm just tired of having it the way it is.

Thanks,
Mike B.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

Have you check the slave cylinder? From the way you describe it, it sounds like you still have air in the system since you say it returns to normal after pumping it numerous times.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

DERTY

Mike,

I have the same exact problem. I ultimately ended up replacing the slave and rebuilding the master with the McLeod rebuild kit. I bench bled the hell out of it. Not one microbubble in the line, I use a PVC hose on the quick connect to bleed into. That way you can see the fluid and the air. You also can't suck air back into the line that way.

I'm going to be calling McLeod about this when I can this week. It's really frustrating and it's pissing me off for the same reasons you stated. I'm debating if their clutch has anything to do with this as well.

Let me know what you find.

buschman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by derty:
<strong>Mike,

I have the same exact problem. I ultimately ended up replacing the slave and rebuilding the master with the McLeod rebuild kit. I bench bled the hell out of it. Not one microbubble in the line, I use a PVC hose on the quick connect to bleed into. That way you can see the fluid and the air. You also can't suck air back into the line that way.

I'm going to be calling McLeod about this when I can this week. It's really frustrating and it's pissing me off for the same reasons you stated. I'm debating if their clutch has anything to do with this as well.

Let me know what you find.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Well you could be right, but how on earth can I assure it's being bleed correctly? I bleed it through the slave already. I've bench bled it. I bought the MityVac pump and bled it with that. I sent Jason from Thunder Racing my entire hydrolic setup(excluding the slave cylinder) and he sent it back bled and ready to be installed. Initial results were good but after a week(my hawk only sees weekend action) the spiradic weak presure returned. I suspected maybe some air was trapped in the slave so I then bled the system through the slave. Again, initially everything worked fine but before long it returned.

It seems closely related to temperature. Some people suggested that it was heat off the headers. I didn't see how, as the braided line never got within 2-3 inches of the headers at any point. But just to be on the safe side I put on a "earl's thermo sleeve" which should protect the line up to 2000*. Again, same results.

At the track I have to really muscle it into gear. The 1-2 and 3-4 shifts are livable, but the 2-3 shift feels like an unfolded lawn chair. Half the time it won't go in and I have to abort the run. Sometimes it grinds bad but I can get it in if I hold it. At low RPMs this shift is no problem. But at WOT it's feels like I'm trying to shift through a brick wall. Perhaps when I remounted the tranny the shifter was reinstalled in a way that the upper stop bolt is not allowing 3rd to properly engage. This gear is giving me hella problems! It's the only on that pops out during normal driving.

If you guys were in my shoes, what would you try next? Thunder keeps telling me to bleed. I think my only remaining option is to try and talk to McLeod themselves. Perhaps they can explain the inner workings in a way that we can figure out the issue.

Your advice, suggestions, and expertise in this matter are greatly appreciated.

Mike B.

Edge Hawk

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by buschman:
If you guys were in my shoes, what would you try next</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Get an A4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

j/k bro. I hope you get it straighten out.

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Lee

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Edge Hawk ]</small>

DERTY

I'm calling McLeod and telling them that rebuilding the cylinder did nothing for me. Yes, after you bleed it it will always feel good for a short period of time. After that it quickly disappears. From what I can tell you are doing nothing wrong. Even the line being close to the headers is a crock of ****. Mine is at least 6" away. I also run ATE Super Blue which takes a ton of heat to boil. I'm just fed up with the whole damn setup at this point.

What clutch do you have with yours? Curious if it could be a pressure plate or some springs in the clutch that just act up. Not sure, doesn't seem reasonable.

buschman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by derty:
<strong>I'm calling McLeod and telling them that rebuilding the cylinder did nothing for me. Yes, after you bleed it it will always feel good for a short period of time. After that it quickly disappears. From what I can tell you are doing nothing wrong. Even the line being close to the headers is a crock of ****. Mine is at least 6" away. I also run ATE Super Blue which takes a ton of heat to boil. I'm just fed up with the whole damn setup at this point.

What clutch do you have with yours? Curious if it could be a pressure plate or some springs in the clutch that just act up. Not sure, doesn't seem reasonable.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I went with the McLeod Single Disk Kevlar and steel flywheel.

The only possible thing I can think of is that when I was installing the pressure plate I set the torque wrench to 52lbs. and then went a tad bit further. But how much could that be, 2-3 extra pounds of pressure? I seriously doubt that's the issue. But it might be worth asking them about. Did you install your own clutch Derty? I believe you were giving me advice on some issues I was having earlier on, right? Sounds like the kind of guy who turns his own wrenches to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Let me know how your conversation with McLeod goes, I'm very interested to hear about it. If they treat you like this is an isolated incident shot me the name and number of who you spoke to and I'll give them an earfull!

For the money I paid this crap should not be happening. FWIW, I too used ATE SuperBlue cause that's what everyone said is the best.

Mike

p.s. Lee- No girlie tranmission for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" />

<small>[ November 11, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: buschman ]</small>

Dustin Butts

iTrader: (5)

Sounds like you may need to adjust out your pedal a tad more...clutch not releasing fully between shifts or when the clutch pedal is depressed. If that doesn't cure it you may have to look at a new slave cylinder...? Have you drilled out the restriction in the braided steel pressure line on the M/C side?

I and several others around here have been running the McLeod M/C and they have been great. ALL have the drill mod. Only problem I've had is burning up clutch discs due to excessive abuse/power and mis-shifting from 2nd to 5th...haahahaaaa!!

Brownie

I have the same issue. I can still shift the car though, but my pedal gets near the floor. It does is sporadicly and I know it gets worse when the car hasn't been used for a few days.

It has been reverse bled through the slave and that made it better for a while, but then the issue returns.

The pedal pressure goes from very hard to very weak and the engagement point goes from the top to near the floor. I am lucky in that I can always get into gears with no problem. But I can't always be sure where the engagement point is going to be.

Its annoying as hell!!!!

The shop that did the install has been in touch with McLeod (George) but there has been no resolution yet.

We thought it was air, but this clutch has been reverse bled 3 times now.

I hope we get this figured out!

Mike

<small>[ November 12, 2002, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Brownie ]</small>

Dustin Butts

iTrader: (5)

Brownie..
Your problem definitely sounds like a slave issue...

Brownie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Dustin Butts:
<strong>Brownie..
Your problem definitely sounds like a slave issue...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Thanks for the heads up!

What leads you to believe this??

Mike

CONFUZED

iTrader: (3)

I KNOW Im repeating what others have said,but ,bench bleeding isnt the only thing when you bleed it.we bench bleed mine,it worked ok,but the pedal moved around a little,didnt feel quit right,tried bleeding it at slave,3-5 times pumping pedal,etc.still wasnt right.then finally i took a whole bottle of brake fluid(smaller bottle)and bleed the hell outta it,used the whole can plus what was already in the can.it works great now.now the pedal is in the same place all the time,same engagement points.sometimes you may think its got all the air out,but you really dont.i was getting pissed at mine to till i bleed the **** outta it.

buschman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CONFUZED:
<strong>I KNOW Im repeating what others have said,but ,bench bleeding isnt the only thing when you bleed it.we bench bleed mine,it worked ok,but the pedal moved around a little,didnt feel quit right,tried bleeding it at slave,3-5 times pumping pedal,etc.still wasnt right.then finally i took a whole bottle of brake fluid(smaller bottle)and bleed the hell outta it,used the whole can plus what was already in the can.it works great now.now the pedal is in the same place all the time,same engagement points.sometimes you may think its got all the air out,but you really dont.i was getting pissed at mine to till i bleed the **** outta it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey Confused,

Could you go into more detail on how you finally got your M/C to work correctly? I can't speak for the others but ersonally I have tried every method of bleeding to get this thing to work correctly. I'd be willing to try anything if someone tells me they had the same problem as we're having and this is how they fixed it.

When you bled an entire bottle through the M/C what specifically did you do to bleed it properly? What fluid are you using? How does it handle high RPM shifts? Thanks.

For the guys saying it's the slave cylinder, what makes you say that? I'm not doubting you're correct. Just curious what you think is going on inside to cause this problem. For me I ordered a new slave cylinder from gmpartsdirect when I ordered the clutch. It's an 02 slave and should function properly.

Thanks for all the posts guys. I think a lot of epople are sheding some light on this problem and maybe we can all find a resonable solution.

Mike B.

CONFUZED

iTrader: (3)

i bled it at slave,got friend to pump pedal like 20-25 times(full pump,all the way down,all the way up)hold it down on the 25 th time.crack bleeder on slave,slowly ,let it ooze brake fluid(like count one thousand 1 one thousand 2)then close it.check fluid in resevoir,keep it filled.repeat that about 10-15 times.thats what i did.worked for me.

Jason99T/A

iTrader: (21)

Confuzed is correct. I installed his original Centerforce clutch, upgraded 145 slave, and Mcleod adj. m/c. I bench bled the m/c and slave and installed them. Pedal pressure was great for awhile, but the engagement point moved around some after a few days. By the time we got to re-bleed it, the centerforce disk blew up. <img border="0" alt="[kaboom]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bomb.gif" /> and I then installed a Spec stage 3. The engagement problem continued, so we bled at the slave a few times. This helped some, but the problem did not go away. He went home and another friend helped him put more fluid through the car. This did the trick. If you think you have it bled, keep bleeding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> You will eventually get the air out.

BTW, Kip, you owe me a new Polo shirt. My other one is still stained with brake fluid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> lol

Jason

991LE

iTrader: (2)

I think everyone is saying replece the slave because you have tried bleeding and working on the MC. The other most likely point of failure is the slave.

Good Luck

buschman

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by CONFUZED:
<strong>i bled it at slave,got friend to pump pedal like 20-25 times(full pump,all the way down,all the way up)hold it down on the 25 th time.crack bleeder on slave,slowly ,let it ooze brake fluid(like count one thousand 1 one thousand 2)then close it.check fluid in resevoir,keep it filled.repeat that about 10-15 times.thats what i did.worked for me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hey Thanks for the advice Confuzed. I have a buddy comming over tomorrow. He's a stang driver so I'll make him work that pedal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="gr_tounge.gif" /> J/K But anywho, I'll give it a shot and report back. I'm sure it will work great this weekend, but I'll keep you guys in the loop about what happens in comming weeks.

Let me ask you this, I've heard you can airrate(air bubbles get so tiny that they are impossible to get rid of) the fluid by pumping it too fast. Perviously, I had pumped slower so as not to do this. Could you tell me when doing this 25 pumps, did you do it slow or at a normal speed? Or is it possible that I want to airrate the line and the shear mass of fluid will help push the airrated fluid out of the system?

Any idea why the McLeod's are so tough to bleed?

I'll give it a shot tomorrow and report back.

Mike

Brownie

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jason99T/A:
<strong>Confuzed is correct. I installed his original Centerforce clutch, upgraded 145 slave, and Mcleod adj. m/c. I bench bled the m/c and slave and installed them. Pedal pressure was great for awhile, but the engagement point moved around some after a few days. By the time we got to re-bleed it, the centerforce disk blew up. <img border="0" alt="[kaboom]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bomb.gif" /> and I then installed a Spec stage 3. The engagement problem continued, so we bled at the slave a few times. This helped some, but the problem did not go away. He went home and another friend helped him put more fluid through the car. This did the trick. If you think you have it bled, keep bleeding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> You will eventually get the air out.

BTW, Kip, you owe me a new Polo shirt. My other one is still stained with brake fluid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> lol

Jason</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Every try reverse power-bleeding it?? The shop had done this 3 times with only slightly better results. Does seem to help a little. What are the odds that reverse power-bleeding (from the slave all the way up) would not get air out?

Another scenario - could air be re-entering the system days down the road? (not sure how)

Clutch works great after a bleed for a week and then the problems return.

Mike

buschman

Well I got it done today. 25 pumps, hold the 25th and crack the bleeder valve on the slave. We did this 60, that's right not 10-15, but 60 times! The first 30 I was holding the bleeder valve open 2-3 seconds. But we were getting inconsistant results. I was afraid that even though fluid was constantly flowing, thatb some how air as creeping back in. But the last thirty I was holding the bleeder open a fraction of a second. While the amount of fluid released was a lot less, the pedal response became more consistant.

Unfortunately, it is raining pretty bad here so I haven't gotten a chance to take it out on the road yet.

Initial impression... The pedal pressure is not as stiff as it has been in the past, but not as limp as it is when it is having issues. It worries me that it is not as stiff as it has been in the past, but since this M/C has never worked correctly perhaps this is what it is supposed to feel like. It has been consistant.

The first M/C I got, with the clutch assebly, was very quite and smooth. Since that one would build up no pedal pressure at all we had a replacement sent out. The replacement I got has always been VERY squeaky! I'm not sure if those squeaks indicate air in the system or what. It's annoying but a secondary problem to the actual hydrolic issues.

I don't feel confident that the problem is fixed, but I have to give the mCleod a fair shake before getting to pissed off. I'll let you know what she feels like when I get her on the road. but the true test will be what she feels like after a few weeks.

I'll kee you guys updated.

Mike B.

buschman

Tested the clutch out today.

Results not great. pedal pressure changes just like it always has. Several times I was unable to get the tranny in gear and had to pump the pedal to get normal pedal pressure.

When the pedal is stiff, it shifts like a dream. When it's limp it makes me yurn for a mustang's cable linkage!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />

At this point I want to swap the slave out for a new one before approaching Thunder Racing(where I bought this master cylinder). This means I need to pull the tranny once again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="gr_images/icons/mad.gif" />

Mike