How can I increase shifting speed?
02-01-2008, 05:46 AM
#1
How can I increase shifting speed? I have a 99 Borg Warner transmission with those new parts:
3-4 steel fork
bronze pads
billet keys
carbon clutches
new stock LS6 clutch
new 02 slave cylinder
new bronze bushing
The hydraulics are free of air for sure.
...it shifts fine but still too slow, I'd like to be able to go from one gear to another in on throw. Right now the shifter stops for a little while before going in the mext gear. Maybe 1/2 second.
Is it a good idea to reduce the throttle cracker values? Or is that a mechanical issue?
Or is that just normal?
Thanks
Stefano
3-4 steel fork
bronze pads
billet keys
carbon clutches
new stock LS6 clutch
new 02 slave cylinder
new bronze bushing
The hydraulics are free of air for sure.
...it shifts fine but still too slow, I'd like to be able to go from one gear to another in on throw. Right now the shifter stops for a little while before going in the mext gear. Maybe 1/2 second.
Is it a good idea to reduce the throttle cracker values? Or is that a mechanical issue?
Or is that just normal?
Thanks
Stefano
02-01-2008, 07:56 AM
#3
I forgot the oil: it's a Dexron III from BP, no idea if it's synthetic or mineral.
Before I rebuilt the tranny ("paper" synchros) I tried a full sysntetic oil (Agip) and it grinded from time to time.
I also tried the GM Syncromesh: it shifts too slow at low temperatures. Once warmed up it didin't shift faster than now.
OK, now I have the carbon blockers... mayb I could try the full syntethic stuff.
Over here (Switzerland) we don't have the same oil brands than in North America, so I'll have to stick with what we have...
02-01-2008, 09:38 AM
#4
A GM "Hurst" shifter from a 2002 car with a stock stick.
I forgot the oil: it's a Dexron III from BP, no idea if it's synthetic or mineral.
Before I rebuilt the tranny ("paper" synchros) I tried a full sysntetic oil (Agip) and it grinded from time to time.
I also tried the GM Syncromesh: it shifts too slow at low temperatures. Once warmed up it didin't shift faster than now.
OK, now I have the carbon blockers... mayb I could try the full syntethic stuff.
Over here (Switzerland) we don't have the same oil brands than in North America, so I'll have to stick with what we have...
I forgot the oil: it's a Dexron III from BP, no idea if it's synthetic or mineral.
Before I rebuilt the tranny ("paper" synchros) I tried a full sysntetic oil (Agip) and it grinded from time to time.
I also tried the GM Syncromesh: it shifts too slow at low temperatures. Once warmed up it didin't shift faster than now.
OK, now I have the carbon blockers... mayb I could try the full syntethic stuff.
Over here (Switzerland) we don't have the same oil brands than in North America, so I'll have to stick with what we have...
Yea, if you can you could try Mobil 1 ATF, I use Pennzoil Synchomesh, the cold does effect it, but its like butter when its up to operating temp.
I was hammering on my Oz700 and I shift pretty quick now, I think its more like to do with practice.
The only other thing you can do is the drill mod
02-01-2008, 11:04 AM
#6
Drill mod is done...
The shifter is not the best one, but it won't shift better with another one, it's really a matter of how fast the tranny parts get atthe right speed.
Mobil 1 ATF... I'll see if I can find it here. That will be hard.
What about the throttle cracker tables? When you close the throttle the idle pintle stays open for a little while depending on vehicle speed and RPM. This doesn't help while shifting...
The shifter is not the best one, but it won't shift better with another one, it's really a matter of how fast the tranny parts get atthe right speed.
Mobil 1 ATF... I'll see if I can find it here. That will be hard.
What about the throttle cracker tables? When you close the throttle the idle pintle stays open for a little while depending on vehicle speed and RPM. This doesn't help while shifting...
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02-01-2008, 02:21 PM
#10
LONG POST, BUT READ THE WHOLE THING
I am going through this same exact issue right now and have been doing a LOT of research and making a lot of calls to get it figured out. I've also spent a bit of money on ALL new parts (some of which I was replacing anyways, like the trans) and have it narrowed down to what is showing to be the actual problem at this point. See below.
The first step for you to do, judging from what you've already said it has done, is to do the "clutch test" that Amber at Six Speeds Inc made me aware of. To do this:
- Stop the car completely on a totally level surface so that in neutral, it doesn't roll forward or back. MAKE SURE NOTHING IS IN FRONT OF THE CAR!
- Push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor so that it is "disengaged".
- Put the shifter into first gear.
- Now keeping the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, slowly bring the RPMs up to about 5500-6000.
- If at any point (mine did so at 5000) your car starts to move and/or you feel the clutch grab slightly, then you have a clutch disengagement problem. It will most likely do this at high RPMs, 5000 or above, and this is very likely what's causing the high RPM shifting problem.
Like I said, I am going through the exact same thing right now and have replaced everything: new tranny, OEM master cylinder, slave, clutch/flywheel, drill mod, shifter. What I have discovered from talking to everyone and doing a LOT of reading is that I most likely need an adjustable master cylinder (RAM and McLeod both make them).
This is because even with the shim installed behind the slave, the pedal still isn't pushing far enough when it hits the floor to completely disengage the clutch, and it shows at high RPMs.
I have a new RAM adjustable master cylinder on the way to my house right now and will probably be installing it early next week. I will then let you know how it goes.
Also, I was told by Amber that if driven hard for too long, this issue may damage the blocker rings in the tranny, and even if the adjustable master cylinder fixes the issue, you may still see these same symptoms at high RPM shifting if the blocker rings are indeed damaged, although the "clutch test" shouldn't cause the car to move anymore since it will be fully disengaging.
Hope this helps.
PS - this issue is also most likely going to cause premature clutch failure if driven too long/hard without being resolved. Just a heads up.
I am going through this same exact issue right now and have been doing a LOT of research and making a lot of calls to get it figured out. I've also spent a bit of money on ALL new parts (some of which I was replacing anyways, like the trans) and have it narrowed down to what is showing to be the actual problem at this point. See below.
The first step for you to do, judging from what you've already said it has done, is to do the "clutch test" that Amber at Six Speeds Inc made me aware of. To do this:
- Stop the car completely on a totally level surface so that in neutral, it doesn't roll forward or back. MAKE SURE NOTHING IS IN FRONT OF THE CAR!
- Push the clutch pedal all the way to the floor so that it is "disengaged".
- Put the shifter into first gear.
- Now keeping the clutch pedal all the way to the floor, slowly bring the RPMs up to about 5500-6000.
- If at any point (mine did so at 5000) your car starts to move and/or you feel the clutch grab slightly, then you have a clutch disengagement problem. It will most likely do this at high RPMs, 5000 or above, and this is very likely what's causing the high RPM shifting problem.
Like I said, I am going through the exact same thing right now and have replaced everything: new tranny, OEM master cylinder, slave, clutch/flywheel, drill mod, shifter. What I have discovered from talking to everyone and doing a LOT of reading is that I most likely need an adjustable master cylinder (RAM and McLeod both make them).
This is because even with the shim installed behind the slave, the pedal still isn't pushing far enough when it hits the floor to completely disengage the clutch, and it shows at high RPMs.
I have a new RAM adjustable master cylinder on the way to my house right now and will probably be installing it early next week. I will then let you know how it goes.
Also, I was told by Amber that if driven hard for too long, this issue may damage the blocker rings in the tranny, and even if the adjustable master cylinder fixes the issue, you may still see these same symptoms at high RPM shifting if the blocker rings are indeed damaged, although the "clutch test" shouldn't cause the car to move anymore since it will be fully disengaging.
Hope this helps.
PS - this issue is also most likely going to cause premature clutch failure if driven too long/hard without being resolved. Just a heads up.
Last edited by PewterScreaminMach; 02-01-2008 at 02:26 PM.
02-01-2008, 03:21 PM
#11
9 Second Club
I used Fuchs ATF4000 in my last box. Its cheap, and I never had any shifting problems.
Id think you should be able to get that quite easily where you are ??
Id think you should be able to get that quite easily where you are ??
02-06-2008, 05:59 AM
#14
Sorry guys for letting you wait, but I didn't receive any email about your answers
PewterScreaminMach this is a simple thing to check, I'll give it a try.
My master is stock and is adjustable.
My slave is new.
stevieturbo I don' tkonw this oil...
here we have BP, Esso (Exxon) and Agip.
Fran D yes, this is the stock Hurst wit the funny insulator.
I have once made one myself without the insulator: direct and short, but also noisy (it amplifies the tranny noises).
OK, now you can tell me my hand-legs-feet coordination isn't correct...
I release the gas pedal and at the same time I push on the clutch.
At this point I can feel the shifter can move and I bring it there where the next gear is and apply a little pressure.
Once the synchro's have don their job (1/2 - 1 sec later) the tranny sucks the shifter in the gear.
Sometimes it goes very fast, sometimes it don't. It's better if I release the gas pedal completely and then push the clutch. But this takes time too...
PewterScreaminMach this is a simple thing to check, I'll give it a try.
My master is stock and is adjustable.
My slave is new.
stevieturbo I don' tkonw this oil...
here we have BP, Esso (Exxon) and Agip.
Fran D yes, this is the stock Hurst wit the funny insulator.
I have once made one myself without the insulator: direct and short, but also noisy (it amplifies the tranny noises).
OK, now you can tell me my hand-legs-feet coordination isn't correct...
I release the gas pedal and at the same time I push on the clutch.
At this point I can feel the shifter can move and I bring it there where the next gear is and apply a little pressure.
Once the synchro's have don their job (1/2 - 1 sec later) the tranny sucks the shifter in the gear.
Sometimes it goes very fast, sometimes it don't. It's better if I release the gas pedal completely and then push the clutch. But this takes time too...
02-06-2008, 08:34 AM
#16
Make sure the clutch hydraulic line is insulated from heat. could be that you are cooking the hydraulics a little at high rpm.
also, practice, practice practice.
I noticed while drag racing against a lot of cars, my 1-2 shift was really slow compared to theirs. I had great comparable launches, but on the 1-2 I'd be killed. A combination of change in shift technique + a hurst short throw shifter changed that. More so the change in technique, I matched it up better to my 3-4 shift, but a little care and side pressure must be put in to ensure that you don't end up in 4th.
also, practice, practice practice.
I noticed while drag racing against a lot of cars, my 1-2 shift was really slow compared to theirs. I had great comparable launches, but on the 1-2 I'd be killed. A combination of change in shift technique + a hurst short throw shifter changed that. More so the change in technique, I matched it up better to my 3-4 shift, but a little care and side pressure must be put in to ensure that you don't end up in 4th.
02-06-2008, 11:23 AM
#19
The fluid is pretty fresh and the old one wasn't brown or smelled strange.
Practice... I drove stick the past 20 years... ok, 2 years A4 with this care before I swapped the tranny
02-06-2008, 12:58 PM
#20
driving in the city with no precise timing is one thing
Driving at the track and shifting in under a second at high rpm while the car is slamming you in your seat is another.
On a good hook with little wheel spin, the car slams you into your seat pretty hard all the way to redline at the same time you are fighting the steering wheel to keep straight. You really expect that under that kind of pressure you can do a perfect 1-2 shift?
Once you mod the suspension (torque arm, LCA's, LCA relocation kit, pan hard, shocks and drag swaybar) the car will have an easier time going straight, but back when mine was stock, half the concentration was gaining traction and half was keeping the car straight all in the short time it takes to hit 6k rpm in 1st. Hence why it takes a LOT of practice.
With heated 315 nittos, a clutch drop at 4k and a near perfect launch, I finally pulled a 1.9 60 ft, the near perfect 1-2 shift in which I chriped that shift HARD and chirped the 2-3 shift and SCREWED UP the 3-4 shift on account of a sweaty hand. Managed a 12.9 on that pass, but I imagine if I didn't mess up I had a mid 12 or lower in the making. After that the nittos were dead and couldn't do better than a 2.2 60 ft.
It's harder to shift on track than it is in normal driving. I've got 2 friends that have driven stick for a good 10+ years while I've only driven stick for 4 years officially, 3 years with this car. Yet neither have come close to attempting the speed shifts and power shifts I can do. 100+ track runs will teach you a lot.
Driving at the track and shifting in under a second at high rpm while the car is slamming you in your seat is another.
On a good hook with little wheel spin, the car slams you into your seat pretty hard all the way to redline at the same time you are fighting the steering wheel to keep straight. You really expect that under that kind of pressure you can do a perfect 1-2 shift?
Once you mod the suspension (torque arm, LCA's, LCA relocation kit, pan hard, shocks and drag swaybar) the car will have an easier time going straight, but back when mine was stock, half the concentration was gaining traction and half was keeping the car straight all in the short time it takes to hit 6k rpm in 1st. Hence why it takes a LOT of practice.
With heated 315 nittos, a clutch drop at 4k and a near perfect launch, I finally pulled a 1.9 60 ft, the near perfect 1-2 shift in which I chriped that shift HARD and chirped the 2-3 shift and SCREWED UP the 3-4 shift on account of a sweaty hand. Managed a 12.9 on that pass, but I imagine if I didn't mess up I had a mid 12 or lower in the making. After that the nittos were dead and couldn't do better than a 2.2 60 ft.
It's harder to shift on track than it is in normal driving. I've got 2 friends that have driven stick for a good 10+ years while I've only driven stick for 4 years officially, 3 years with this car. Yet neither have come close to attempting the speed shifts and power shifts I can do. 100+ track runs will teach you a lot.