Stone0fFire

why dont you go out and get yourself some mad stall?

then you wont need this thread to back you up

samz28

can you explain in detail how a stall feels like with my A4 2.73? I was looking at the yank super stock 3600 since they seem to have the best rep. What exactly do they feel like driving around in the city? how does the lockup effect once moving? most the city stoplight to stoplight i dont wanna lay drag every time i have to move. Of course tuning would go to match the stall and i do roll nitto 555R's daily since i drive like 2-3 miles to work. but sometimes thats a 30 minutes drive

1madss

iTrader: (10)

Hmmm... 3 out of the top 5 All motor 346 cars are M6s.

With #1 spot being a M6

BigPlanTransAm

with a stall you will need to give it more gas to get moving from a stop. it kind of feels like your car got heavier. now, once the converter locks up, there should be no difference betweem stock and the big stall.
more gear would take away some of the "heavy" feeling but chances are one you get the converter you will have traction problems and you should solve those before you hit the tires harder with more gearing.

chrismcdaniel

iTrader: (14)

bro you dont have a clue, my little brother and i have matching 00 ss camaros, matching except for the fact he has a m6 and i have an A4. when our cars where brand new we took them to the track, i ran 8.9 in the 18th, and he ran 9.2. we traded cars for a couple of runs and the times of the cars dint vary much. he dropped 410 ratio gears in and i stuck with stock set up 3:23 and i still smoked his car.he put nittos on and with the 4:10's and the 555R's we finaly had a good drag race. ill be the first to admit that the m6 is more fun to drive on the street, and that it can deffinatly take me from a roll, but the fact are the fact, the a4 is just quicker stock in the drag race arena than the m6. now that we have had a few years to mod the two cars, we are both running pretty well, he is quicker though with the help of those gears those tires and 100hp shot of no2.

darrensformula

Go to the drag racing section here. The top sticky thread is the ET database. Head on in and click the link in the top post to get to the database.

Now look at the top 20 ET's. I could care less about all motor crap. Run what you brung. Nineteen of the top twenty times were made by Automatics.

Hmm and 1-8 were autos with the only M6 in the top 20 fastest times in that database coming in at number nine.

19/20 = Auto

1/20 = manual

Just more proof that if you want to rule the highways and dyno machines then get a M6. If you want to rule the tracks and ET's then get an auto. But before you can rule anything you need to spend some $$$.

1madss

iTrader: (10)

That all motor "crap" as you call it is the best way to compare apples to apples. There are only so many things that can be down to make power NA giving a more even playing field. I do beleive that the point being discussed was "all things being equal". To me this means raceweight and HP levels. Once you venture into the PA area, its whoever wants to use the biggest shot or the most boost that makes the most power.

The main reason that most of the heavy hitters run autos is due to past problems with clutch technology (that is now fixed for the most part) and consistency in runs. It takes a very skilled driver to run consistent times to win money races. Not everybody has this skill.

This is an age old argument. I do agree that in most cases the auto will be quicker, not faster. It takes a very skilled M6 driver to make up the difference against an auto.

BTW My stock times were 13.2@109 in my poor old M6

Z-Rated

Thats pretty true

Autos are faster, 6 speeds are way more fun. But if you havent driven a high stalled A4 your really missing out.

Nestromo

In stock vs. stock form a stick will win, but when you throw a big stall in the mix the auto will whoop some ***. BUT.... a 6 speed car keeps it's street manners a lot better than a car with a big stall.

darrensformula

I'll say it again.

RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG.

M6 guys tend to change thier shifter, rear end and gears while A4 guys tend to change thier TC and
gears.

The automatics rule at the track. If you like impressing people with your dyno chart or MPG numbers then by all means get an M6. If trap speeds are all you care about then get the M6. If you enjoy shifting gears yourself on the street while pretending to be yout favorite nas car driver then by all means get the M6.

But if you want the fastest and most consistent 1/4 mile ET's on your timeslip then get an automatic with at least 323 gears and a aftermarket torque converter.

BTW you can drop up to .7 off your ET with a 3600-3800 stall that are highly streetable but it's true that the biggest doggs at the track run the 4400 stalls that would be too loose for my taste.

Run what you brung and don't be surprised when a lot of A3's & A4's at the track beat you in a M6. That doesn't make automatics better or worse it just makes them better at drag racing when properly stalled and traction is found.

oh and 13.2 @ 109 did not impress me. But then again it does't have to. As long as you are happy with that time then that's all that matters.

I myself won't be happy until I'm deep in the 12's. Shouldn't be too hard for me to get to with about 2k or so worth of mods. I really don't want 11's just yet as I am not prepared to put in a roll cage and lose my back seat yet.

Go go automatics!

Hannibal

A4's are quicker.
M6's are faster.

There IS a difference.

1madss

iTrader: (10)

OK how about I run what I brung and you run what you brung

The answer to a big stall is big gears. And as far as having to put big money into a M6 to go fast, how much do you think that A3 conversion costs and converter costs? It's not free.

I only brought up my stock times to illustrate the point that apples to apples, the auto is not always the faster, not to attempt to impress you

1madss

iTrader: (10)

Thanks

Glad the that point has gotten across somewhere.

PewterNHRA2001

iTrader: (1)

not tring to get too far off topic, but when i was aking about torque converters a ton of ppl told me it will tear up my transmission.

darrensformula

Ok here we go again. Yes I agree with the statement that A4's are quicker and M6's are faster. If you race a 1/2 mile race then the M6 should win. If you race the 1/4 mile race then the atalled A4 should win.

You keep saying apples to apples. Do you have some facination with fruit or something? Here is the problem I have with that. We all know (or at least should) that the M6 has more RWHP stock due to less FWHP loss thorugh the drivetrain. The numbers I usually hear is about 10 RPHP more in the M6 of equal year.

So you want to compare lets say two 00 models where one dynos 300 rwhp and the other 290 rwhp. The M6 starts with a slight advantage right off the bat. So lets even that playing field and add a lid to the A4 so they both dyno an even 300 rwhp. Now lets race them in a 1/4 mile. Who will win?

M6 will probably win but there are no guarantees. Mind you now the M6 has the stock shifter and no skip shift eliminator. So with very good drivers I'd say the M6 should just edge out the A4 but barely. But lets factor in mediocre drivers in both cars. I'm guessing the A4 will edge out the M6 but it should be close. Now lets put an unexperienced manual driver in the car and he'll probably be owned my the A4 if he misses a gear or messes up the launch bad enough.

So what we have is sometimes the M6 will win and sometimes the A4 will win. Now lets start modding those cars. First thing the M6 guy will do is get a shifter, skip shift eliminator, 4.10 gears, lid, headers and cutout. With sticky tires he may be upgrading to a 12 bolt as well just to be on the safe side.

The a4 will go out and get a Torque converter, trans cooler, 3.42 or 3.73 gears, headers and a cutout. He should still be ok on the 10 bolt for now.

Now who wins? Probably the A4. But the A4 could spin bad off the line and never reel in the M6. The A4 could hook but bounce the rev limiter because Shift points were not properly adjusted after the TC went in. So sometimes the M6 will win but most of the time the A4 will.

Now lets give both cars heads, cam and a nice shot of N20. At this point the A4 needs that 12 bolt and the trans should be in danger as well and may need to be beefed up. Both cars with equal drivers should see the A4 win with the right TC. He should put down some 1.5x 60' times which is why the M6 can not usually reel in the A4.

That is why I believe the A4 is quicker.

Now the M6 can pull hard in third at highway speeds well over 100 MPH and you still have three more gears. The A4's are a bit sluggish after 125. The torque converters do not play a roll at high speeds because they usually lock up between 40-50 mph. So equal HP cars will see the M6 pull on the A4 at speeds of 100+ and they will keep pulling and pulling and pulling. Assuming of course the M6 does not miss a gear.

That is why I believe the M6 is faster. Plus you can not argue the ability to get better gas mileage with 6th gear on the HWY.

Now I consider a torque converter to be a must get mod but it is NOT a HP mod. If you dyno a A4 after a 4000 stall TC is put in it will not dyno better numbers. In fact there is a chance you will dyno worse. So it's not that we are adding HP to beat the M6 guys but rather we are putting more of the all ready existant HP and torque to the launch and lower rpm rolls. We have dead spots unfortunately where the trans won't downshift to get us peak powerband. A good example of this is when you floor the gas from a 35 MPH roll. It accelerates bad because the trans will not downshift to first to bring the rpm's up and get us into power band.

M6 guys don't have that problem because they downshift themselves (obviously). So a TC is not an unfair advantage or taking away from your apples to apples theory. The TC by itself is not adding any HP but instead just allowing us to even out the ability to jump into powerband from lower speed rolls. This also however allows us to launch some great 60' times which is huge for the 1/4 mile ET's.

Now that I have that out of the way lets move on. I am a firm believer of run what you brung (obviously). I have owned my car for about three months and have just started modding. I would be more then happy to race you and lose. I have no problem with that. Heck, if you lost then then either your car broke down or you really suck at driving.

But I have about $500 in HP mods in my car right now. How much do you have? Now my goals for now is a 3800 stall TC, Nitto DR's, 224/224 cam, LT headers with HF cats in an ORY, baur TB, asp underdrive pulley, 9" rear, STB, SFC and a 125 wet shot. When that is finally all done I'll be glad to race again and maybe the result won't be so cut and dry anymore

But that's ok because no matter how fast you think you are, someone is always faster (or quicker).

If you want to bring up the advantages or disvantages to each tranny that's cool. But don't try and tell me about how 3 of the 5 fastest cars are M6's. I've seen the opposite at the track and in this forums own ET database.

wicked 98z

Im gonna go with the auto on this one. My camaro is a A4 and I like the way I have it set up. Its pretty damn hard to get a 6 speed to run like it in the 1/4 mile unless like the Colonel said u upgrade all kinds of **** on it. 1.58 on a stock 10 bolt. I would like to see that in a 6 speed. But my corvette is a 6 speed and I have so much more fun in it then the auto. But hands down the a4 will get you in a dig if its set up right

darrensformula

It is absolutely true that the transmision will be put under more stress with a 3000+ stall TC. You want to get a trans cooler and shift kit (shift kits are debateable but I believe they help a lot). All of the above will still wear and tear on your tranny a little harder then normal but it's worth the trade off IMO.

I'd rather have my transmission last 50,000 miles with a kick a$$ TC in it removing all dead spots then have it last 75,000 miles the way it comes from the factory. But that's just my opinion. Transmissions are wear and tear items and should not last as long as the engine so I plan to use the death of mine as an excuse to upgrade to a th400 or at least a level 2 4L60E.

1madss

iTrader: (10)

Wow, that's quite a book. I'm just giving REAL WORLD examples of auto vs manual cars. Not a whole lot of bench racing.

Apples to apples is a common reference used here to mean comparing the same things. Once you are around here a little longer you will see it used.

I was just kidding about the racing, no need to get testy.

Again this is an old tired argument that has no real black and white answer. My only point is that the blanket statement that auto's rule at the track is not entirely true. That's all I'm trying to say. It always cracks me up that this discussion can get so serious. It's just a choice of tranny people. Not a life choice

Now go and mod that car and come and get sum

1madss

iTrader: (10)

Hmm, Lets take a closer look at your arguments...

What does skip shift have to do with WOT?

An a4 will never "reel in" an M6 car with a compatent driver. A4 had better do it in the first 1/8th or it done. The A4s advantage is in the 60' and the 1/8 mile, after that it's M6 territory. A properly geared m6 will make the second half of the 1/4 all in 4th gear (no shifting and 1:1 gearing).


I cut 1.5 60's without the use of a PA now. Unless the A4 car can cut 1.4 or better, or I miss a shift, he will be reeled in.
I agree %100 with this statement. Just as I agree that gears are a must for M6 cars, due mostly to the 2.66 first gear in the LS1 T56.

I never said that a tq converter was an unfair advantage. Apples to apples refeers to cars running similar HP mods (Cubic inches/NA vs PA). Again, a TQ converter is to an A4 as gears are to an M6.

That comment was a dig for the Colonel. It is unfortunate that you took it as you did. But it is a black and white fact that these,similar sized motor N/A cars, that 3 of the five fastest are M6 cars. The numbers don't lie.

darrensformula

I have gone to the track several times and watched guys run. I have a friend who likes to go and we hang out at the track , drink a few beers and watch all the guys run on TnT. It does not get more real life then that and the best runners are all automatics with big stalls.

If you want to win street races at high speeds then the M6 is definately the way to go. But I would rather win the 1/4 mile race at the track (which is legal and I get a timeslip to prove it) then be faster and win highway races that are illegal and can land you in jail or the morgue real fast.

I'm not trying to be testy but It bugs me when M6 guys try to put down automatics and say we are slow. Like I stated in my novel the TC is not a HP mod and actually is needed IMO to make it a true "apples to apples" comparison.

Because after all if you want to say lemme take a car that is 10 RPHP more and always in peak powerband and compare it to a car with 10 less RWHP and dead spots then I say that isn't a true "apples to apples" comparison.

It's all how you want to look at it I suppose. And the statement "autos rule at the track" is not true. "autos with high stalls and traction rule at the track" is a bit more accurate. Which trans a person goes with is a personal choice and there is no right or wrong but this didn't start with you saying autos don't necesarily rule at the track. This started with you making a statement on how 3 of the top 5 NA cars were M6's. Then I responded with how 19 of the top 20 ET's here were automatics.

Here is my position summed up fairly simply,

If you want to be faster 0-120 then get an automatic and put a big stall in it. If you want to be faster 60-160 then get a M6 and pray you don't get caught.

But if you want to have a fun and enjoy a sweet ride then get a LS1 and it does not matter which transmission happens to be in it.