Horsepower or torque?
04-03-2004, 02:47 PM
#6
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Horsepower is what makes your car fast.
The idea here isn't to decide which is better,as HP is dependent on TQ and RPM. Without TQ you'll have no HP.
HP= TQxRPM/5252
Build for both TQ at the RPM you will be working in. That will result in the most HP.
The idea here isn't to decide which is better,as HP is dependent on TQ and RPM. Without TQ you'll have no HP.
HP= TQxRPM/5252
Build for both TQ at the RPM you will be working in. That will result in the most HP.
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04-03-2004, 03:35 PM
#8
Originally Posted by sscamaro387
horsepower get u to the finish line, and torqe wins races. 
without torque...your engine doesnt turn over.....resulting in you pushing the car past the finishline with 3 of your buddies, and a little sweat.....
the more torque you have the more horsepower you have at a given rpm...
simple math
Horsepower = Torque x RPM / 5252
(which is why all dyno graphs cross at 5252)
04-03-2004, 04:03 PM
#9
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i think torque is the ONLY thing that matters,
and the only reason why hp means anything is because
since making torque at higher rpm rates at a higher hp,
(due to the stupid equation)
high-rpm torque is valued more than low-rpm torque,
even if the amount of torque itself is the same.
but is it valued more because it results in higher hp?
the hp shouldnt matter.
the real reason why high-rpm torque is "better" than low-rpm torque,
is because you can use gearing to focus on that high-rpm torque peak,
where if you made the torque lower, close-ratio gears and lengthy rpm bands would skip right over the powerband.
the reason why i hold such a grudge against this stupid formula,
is because ricers will make like a pathetic 150ft/lbs of torque,
but at the 11,000rpms they make it at,
that equates to 314hp!
is that fair they get such a high hp rating due to not the torque they make,
but where they make it?
hp is for dyno-queen ricers.
its all about the mad tq
and the only reason why hp means anything is because
since making torque at higher rpm rates at a higher hp,
(due to the stupid equation)
high-rpm torque is valued more than low-rpm torque,
even if the amount of torque itself is the same.
but is it valued more because it results in higher hp?
the hp shouldnt matter.
the real reason why high-rpm torque is "better" than low-rpm torque,
is because you can use gearing to focus on that high-rpm torque peak,
where if you made the torque lower, close-ratio gears and lengthy rpm bands would skip right over the powerband.
the reason why i hold such a grudge against this stupid formula,
is because ricers will make like a pathetic 150ft/lbs of torque,
but at the 11,000rpms they make it at,
that equates to 314hp!
is that fair they get such a high hp rating due to not the torque they make,
but where they make it?
hp is for dyno-queen ricers.
its all about the mad tq
04-03-2004, 04:26 PM
#10
If it were all about torque we'd all be running deisel engines. The reason we're not, besides them being heavy, is they redline so low they make low power. A diesel engine would pull hard cause of the torque, but you'd have to shift right away (4000 rpm or so). So no, torque doesn't win races. Area under the curve wins races.
04-03-2004, 04:42 PM
#11
TECH Resident
Originally Posted by P Mack
If it were all about torque we'd all be running deisel engines. The reason we're not, besides them being heavy, is they redline so low they make low power. A diesel engine would pull hard cause of the torque, but you'd have to shift right away (4000 rpm or so). So no, torque doesn't win races. Area under the curve wins races.
but they dont make it for long.
if they made more torque..
as in duration, not intensity,
then theyd be the chit.
area under the curve.. i like that! thats a good one!
but i still say hp is a worthless consequent of torque and rpm.
04-03-2004, 11:43 PM
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P mack is on to to it about diesels but
truck engines in general make more low
end due to towing needs and since diesel
can only burn so fast(hence a 3000 redline
give or take) they are all TQ as HP figures
peak much higher.
Basicly is comes down to this, although
hp is a function of tq, the application of
it is different, which is why HP figures were
figured in the first place.
Acceleration-TQ
MPH/top speed-HP
Yes gearing comes into it but motor wise that is
how they relate. All the TQ in the world won't
make you go 200 mph without HP. And that's why
decently high HP cars with low TQ run lousy 1/4's
truck engines in general make more low
end due to towing needs and since diesel
can only burn so fast(hence a 3000 redline
give or take) they are all TQ as HP figures
peak much higher.
Basicly is comes down to this, although
hp is a function of tq, the application of
it is different, which is why HP figures were
figured in the first place.
Acceleration-TQ
MPH/top speed-HP
Yes gearing comes into it but motor wise that is
how they relate. All the TQ in the world won't
make you go 200 mph without HP. And that's why
decently high HP cars with low TQ run lousy 1/4's
04-04-2004, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Ponyhtr
What if your car doesn't get to 5252 RPMs. Then the Torque and HP will never cross? Is that correct? Holy Crap you guys are smart!
There is actually alot more to acceleration than HP and TQ.
Gearing,weight,and suspension have just as much to do with low ET's as power. Matter of fact what separates the quick guys from the best usually comes down to those three things.
You have to think of a vehicle as a system. No one part is more important than the other and if all are designed and used to work together you'll get the most out of the vehicle.
A good example of an unbalanced car is your "average" tweaked Supra Turbo. 700 rwhp and running 11's. The same amount of power in a well sorted package is good for easy low 9's.
I'll bet my T/A is barely putting 300 to the ground if that. I ran a 12.9@105 today.A near stock '03 Cobra that's probably putting down 380+ was running the same time with more MPH.
04-04-2004, 09:32 PM
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other then HP and TQ, you have weight, traction, and suspension.
a well balanced car will run faster then A huge HP car, or a car with no power and tq, and LOW LOW weight. There are 500 rwhp cars running nines, while there are 900 hp cars still in the high 10;s.
TQ like stated before takes precident to HP, since HP is a after effect of TQ. everything else stated, i cant comment on cause leraije is correct.
and yes we have some smart guys on the board. ranging from highschool kids, to people with their PHD's!!!
Gray
a well balanced car will run faster then A huge HP car, or a car with no power and tq, and LOW LOW weight. There are 500 rwhp cars running nines, while there are 900 hp cars still in the high 10;s.
TQ like stated before takes precident to HP, since HP is a after effect of TQ. everything else stated, i cant comment on cause leraije is correct.
and yes we have some smart guys on the board. ranging from highschool kids, to people with their PHD's!!!
Gray
04-04-2004, 09:33 PM
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Several of you guys are saying that torque means EVERYTHING, and it is more important. It is true that without torque, horsepower wouldn't exist... but if your engine can't rev very high, that torque becomes pretty useless.
Let's use an extreme example - say your redline is 2,000 RPMs and you have 500 ft-lbs of torque. If the torque curve is flat the entire time, your HP peak would be 190 HP. Since your redline is so low, you are going to be shifting in to your higher gears sooner, and the torque multiplication of the lower gears will be forfeited too soon. Now, let's make that same engine rev to 7,000 RPMs. You will be able to keep the torque multiplication of the lower gears much, much longer. If the torque curve stays flat at 500 ft-lbs, this will result in 666 HP.
Basically, your car is nothing without torque... it doesn't move. However, if your engine can't rev, that torque is meaningless, as it will produce no horsepower, and nothing will be done. The simple answer is that you need both... you need to make torque, and you need to rev to produce horsepower.
The best combination for me comes down to an engine which is able to rev high, producing large amounts of torque at the high RPMs, so that I can take advantage of the torque multiplication in the lower gears longer -- while at the same time, keeping a decently flat torque curve throughout the ENTIRE range, for good low-end punch. This is a matter of personal preference though... some guys are pure low-end torque junkies, and others want to hit 8,000 RPMs before anything happens.
Let's use an extreme example - say your redline is 2,000 RPMs and you have 500 ft-lbs of torque. If the torque curve is flat the entire time, your HP peak would be 190 HP. Since your redline is so low, you are going to be shifting in to your higher gears sooner, and the torque multiplication of the lower gears will be forfeited too soon. Now, let's make that same engine rev to 7,000 RPMs. You will be able to keep the torque multiplication of the lower gears much, much longer. If the torque curve stays flat at 500 ft-lbs, this will result in 666 HP.
Basically, your car is nothing without torque... it doesn't move. However, if your engine can't rev, that torque is meaningless, as it will produce no horsepower, and nothing will be done. The simple answer is that you need both... you need to make torque, and you need to rev to produce horsepower.
The best combination for me comes down to an engine which is able to rev high, producing large amounts of torque at the high RPMs, so that I can take advantage of the torque multiplication in the lower gears longer -- while at the same time, keeping a decently flat torque curve throughout the ENTIRE range, for good low-end punch. This is a matter of personal preference though... some guys are pure low-end torque junkies, and others want to hit 8,000 RPMs before anything happens.
04-04-2004, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lerajie
They will not "cross" if you cannot rev to 5252.You'll have more torque than HP.
I am sure you already knew this, but I just wanted to clarify for the other guy...
Just because the torque and HP curves cross at 5252, doesn't necessarily mean that you will have more PEAK horsepower than peak torque.
My HP peak is 345 at the wheels, and my torque peak is 360 at the wheels.
04-04-2004, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by P Mack
If it were all about torque we'd all be running deisel engines. The reason we're not, besides them being heavy, is they redline so low they make low power. A diesel engine would pull hard cause of the torque, but you'd have to shift right away (4000 rpm or so). So no, torque doesn't win races. Area under the curve wins races.
