waxenate

iTrader: (5)

Ok... Been learning about water meth injection as an inter cooler and octane booster. So it got me wondering if it would be possible to use 87 octane gas in conjunction with it to reduce fueling cost and improve gas mileage. Anyone have much experience on the subject?

Thanks

2000PewterT/A

I would just save the hassle and run 93. Its not that much more money and in my opinion it wouldn't justify the work to do all this for how much would be saved.

KILLER-LS1

iTrader: (18)

the cost of a proper methanol system & constant refilling of methanol would outweight the cost of just buying the premium fuel. you can run 89 octance if you are a very conservative driver

bpalma

iTrader: (1)

This is a great topic actually. Instead of using meth to cheap out on higher octane fuel, what about using meth in conjunction with 91+ octane? How much more ignition timing would we be able to run? Engines that run meth are typically spotless internally, all the carbon deposits cleaned away as well.

Is a $500 meth system really worth it? Could we run maybe 10o more of advance timing possibly?

Also, blue washer fluid is a cheap substitute for a meth system. The washer fluid tank would take a long time to drain, its vacuum and only runs are higher throttle positions.

xxrillixx

iTrader: (118)

You can run meth on a NA car. But it will not give a huge advantage. It would be like running 100 octane instead of 91/93. Yes you notice a difference and can tune more agressive... but if you wanted that, just use 100.

I personally would spend the money on something else. But I also wouldnt boost without it.

Daniel0026

If you are dead set on using a supplemental injection, what about injecting E85 to help boost octane? I have been toying with this on my blown 408 setup vs running straight e85 because of the lack of availability where i live. Its more cost efficient and relatively easy to find.

mjs1012

iTrader: (36)

just run 93 octane.

bpalma

iTrader: (1)

I typically run the highest octane available in Ontario(94 octane). However, I am still only able to run 18o of timing on a basically stock engine besides p/p tb, magnaflow muffler, slp lid and a really good tune.

Im adding next week ARH 1 7/8 headers, Yank SS3200 and an SSRA. Besides the added timing I will be able to run with the above breathing mods, I really wonder how much more timing I could run with meth injection?

E85 isnt readily available here in Ontario, Canada. It would be really nice to run around with the benefits of race fuel on a daily basis.

Has anyone ever tried meth injection in a bolt on LS1?!?!?! What are the gains like?

murphinator

iTrader: (2)

maybe a stupid question but did the really good tune involve the use of a wideband to get wot fueling in the 12.5-12.8 to 1 AFR area ?

if it didnt once fueling is dialed in you can try to get more timing in it , reason I ask/ think of it my buddys "tuned" 00 ss/a4 car when we put my wideband on it was 13.5-14 to 1 afr got the fueling in line and was able to add a decent amount of additional timing , woke it up pretty good , he couldnt believe the difference we made in about 45 minutes of additional tuning.

Best fuel in the world isnt going to make up for not enough of it to begin with and narrowbands will report rich as long as afr is south of 14.0 so they will report rich when in fact you are lean as they are reporting what they see which is as rich as they are able to register .

They are called narrow bands because they measure a very narrow band of the afr spectrum , they do it very well and that is the area of the spectrum critical to economy , at WOT you go into open loop where fueling takes place without reference to 02 sensors and falls back on the current file in the pcm , its the tuners job to ensure cars hit safe afr targets after modifications , oem manufacturers assure this using widebands on stock components during research & development.

bpalma

iTrader: (1)

Yup, tuner used a wideband, and I do believe I am dialed in around the 12.8 afr range. Pretty sure that was at 18.5o of timing advance. The tune was done on 91 Octane. I do know at this point though my intake was restrictive, I was running a factory lid with P/P TB and was only getting about 96-97% of manifold vacuum reported by the MAP.

Im just saying, you can get a good meth kit for around 500 bucks. If you could get 10-15hp out of it by running a tonne more timing, seems like even better bang for your buck then a fast 92/92 system would be for the price?

Blackpanther99

iTrader: (8)

You can just run higher octane than spending money on a water/meth system IMO. You will see some gains by getting a more aggresive tune but I dont think running it will be worth it. You will benefit some HP and cooler engine temperatures though. Its up to you.

Blackpanther99

iTrader: (8)

I also agree with this^

Pseudonym

iTrader: (3)

Im also thinking about doing a water/meth kit. Check this out.
http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-t...lications.html

Helvehammer

Helvehammer here - I joined this site just for the Naturally ***-Pirated (oops, meant "***-spear-it-ed" - ADI issue. Ferris was the only engineer who "reinvented the wheel" and got immortality. I have A LOT of NA ADI injection experience and it's not how I make my living so I would be happy to save y'all a bunch of dead ends, if you are interested.
In return, a favor? Call it "Anti Detonation Injection Fluid". The Pratt and Whitney and Curtiss-Wright approved stuff is 50% de-ionized water, 49% Methyl Alcohol and 1% Dromas Oil. We mechanics called it "milk" for it's appearance. Just calling it "Meth" makes my teeth grit.
I would like to help out. And, yes, you can suppress any amount of detonation with it.
You could run 14.5 to 1 compression on Zippo Lighter Fuel and ADI IF you wanted to bad enough! The devil is in the details... NA has instantaneous throttle respnse, and ideally you need instantaneous water response. THAT'S a tall order, and it's actually way, way easier to artificially slow down throttle opening to match water delivery than any other strategy. That sucks, but that is the state of the NA ADI art right now, 3-25-2014.
Anyway, young fellas - (I'm 64 but young at heart) - I will be happy to tell you what I do and don't know, all you gotta do is ask.

willmann_9

Not to go too far off topic but I am trying to decide on whether or not a methanol injection kit would benefit a naturally aspirated engine or not. I've done plenty of research and looked at the kits out there (i.e. Alky, Devils Own, Coolingmist and Snow Performance) It's obvious they benefit supercharged engines most for their cooling attributes. From what I can tell there isn't much the kits do for n.a. engines aside from being able to bump the timing up a bit. So, my question is, have I missed anything or is it simply not worth it to inject methanol on n.a. cars? (even with aftermarket mods such as exhaust, cold air intake, larger throttle body and a tuner which is my case) I would appreciate any input and can take this up on a new thread if that's best. Thanks!

murphinator

iTrader: (2)

it will surely benefit an NA engine if said NA engine happens to be high compression , the higher the compression the greater the benefit.

willmann_9

Yea that makes sense. I'm assuming there isn't any features that determine what a high compression engine is, that is, even stock engines can be high compression it's just a matter of what the ratio actually is.

AINT SKEERED

iTrader: (2)

What about the added cylinder pressure from the water being injected? Should also help some and the keeping your engine clean is a plus

vmapper

iTrader: (8)

I know this is an old thread, but this needs to be mentioned... the 94 octane marketing ploy in Canada.

the 94 octane referred to is garbage. Petro-CAN aka Suncor now. (or mohawk) fueling stations carry super 94 as its called.
How did they obtain 94 octane? well...instead of making 94 octane gasoline, they add ethanol... the reason why it is garbage is because its up to 10% Ethanol - unregulated/uncontrolled (as stated on the inside of the pump - look for the sticker - Contains UP TO 10% ethanol) meaning, you will fill up once the fuel MAY contain 4% Ethanol and then the next time you fill up it MAY contain 9% ethanol.

Ethanol changes stoich!!! so guess what that does to your AFR? it moves it every time you fill up. guess what that does to a dialed in calibration? it means your calibration will drift... for the worse 100% of the time.

Your ECM will drift and your calibration goes out the door. and since each tank you fill is a range of continual drifting, you will lose power - logged and proven repeatedly. TRIMS will always be higher than expected and WOT will suffer. - guaranteed.

You need to find a premium gasoline unmolested by Ethanol. the ONLY 94 octane gasoline in Canada unmolested is Chevron... only available in BC and AB. otherwise 92 or 91 is it.
This premium 'gasoline' without ethanol will provide more stable and yes.. more power than filling up with Mohawk or Petro-Can 94 crap.

E85 is the only ethanol fuel Id use as we know the content of the fuel.. contains 85% ethanol.

HCI2000SS

iTrader: (2)

I've seriously considered running meth on my car. It wants more timing, and on the dyno adding 3 degrees made 15 hp more, but on 93 octane I can't do it. For about 500 bucks I could gain a solid 15 hp with cooler temps especially on hotter days. Plus there would be no changing any of the fuel system. If the car makes more power on more timing this will work well, but if not then it's not worth it IMO