Chimneyyo

Hi! My name is Tim and I'm new to the forums. I'm looking into buying my first muscle car, and I'm pretty dead set on a LS1, particularly a WS6. But a ss/z28 camaro is also an option. I don't know a lot about these vehicles though, I know the LS1 is better than an LT1 generally speaking but that's debated by some. I know the spark plugs suck to change, and that's about the extent of my knowledge. When looking for my LS1 whats some key things to look for if any? And what has been your experience in owning your LS1? I have around 10K to spend and I want to do it right because I probably won't have this much at one time again for quite a while. Also, repair costs, outrageous or reasonable?

GMTheOnlyWay1

iTrader: (1)

You wont be disappointed with an LS1 that's for sure. Great first muscle car and ls1 fbodys have a huge aftermarket and are really cheap to mod and repair parts to be honest. compared to the rest of the car world that is. You should be able to get a good deal on a WS6 with 40-60k miles if you take your time and look around for that price, possibly even cheaper if you want an auto. The weakest link in these cars are the 10 bolt rear end, but shouldn't really be a concern if your picking up a low mileage car. Piston slap is also fairly common but nothing terrible at least from what ive read just a tapping during cold start. Id just take a good look at how well the car has been taken car of see how well it runs and decide for yourself. you will know when you find the right one! goodluck!

GMTheOnlyWay1

iTrader: (1)

Also If your looking for something already modded a little you can get some killer deals in the classified section. The best advice anyone ever gave me when buying mine was don't settle, it might take awhile to find the car you truely want but it's worth it in the end. Another option is to buy a car with a few more miles and use the extra change to do bolt ons. 01- 02 cars have the ls6 intake already which is something to take note of. When I get home ill link you the list of differences in the 98-02 cars.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I imagine you will find this link helpful:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/chevrolet...s-pleases.html

I wrote some long posts for it which outline in detail many of the differences in model years, some of the common problem areas, and general LS1 information for a new shopper/buyer.

The internet is filled with rumors and opinions, but the information I provided in the above link is based directly on my 16+ years of personal experience with all the various model years and trim levels of these cars.

Firebrian

There are dozens to hundreds of threads here that will quickly get you up to speed on the weak links, known problems, what to pay, etc. Start reading as much as you can here. For $10K the best you can probably do for a WS6 is a '98-'00 with 65K+ miles...and even then figure you'll find $500 to $1,000 to "fix" within the first few months of getting it home. In watching autotrader last year, the best overall price I saw for a WS6 A4 was a white 2001 with approx 20K miles for $12K (Vermont). It didn't last long. You'll get essentially identical performance with a Firebird (costs $2K less) or an SS (also $2K less) or a Z28 ($3K to $4K less). Resale and demand is of course better on the WS6, especially the more popular colors. In my mind the overall car comes first, not the color. But, I'm the minority there. Desirable options like performance exhaust/CME, leather, CD stack, upgraded wheels, SLP listed options, all help.

Problems: owners who didn't change fluids regularly, 6 speeds and rear ends that have been beat on, noisy or ticky T56 transmissions especially neutral rollover noise at idle (it's normal though), orig AC systems that are now 13-17 years old, weak jacking points under the car that are often cracked/bent, upper door panel cracks on Firebirds/WS6's, M6 clutch hydraulics that were never designed well for high rpm or WOT maneuvers (many end up upgrading the master cylinder, go to speed bleeders, new slave cylinders, higher end clutch, etc.), plastic battery tray lips that can easily crack, chrome wheels that pit, to name a few.

The factory fill DexCool orange coolant was advertised as good for 100K mile...and it doesn't mix well with the green stuff. The owner's manual never has you change the manual trans fluid. So when looking at lower mileage cars, you just might run into some with orig coolant, trans fluid, differential fluid, power steering, and clutch fluid. So inspecting all the fluids would be helpful, especially the easy to get to ones right under hood. The clutch fluid easily picks up clutch dust when the car is driven hard. The longer it remained dark, the better chance the slave cylinders have been damaged. To access those the transmission has to be dropped. While F Body parts might be affordable, the $100/hr labor at your local shop to do the work is certainly not...if you can't do a lot of it yourself. I'd imagine all this applies as well to comparable Mustangs, GTO's, Vettes, etc. If you miss anything important in the drive train of any performance car it could run $1K or more. Check that the limited slip differential actually works. For $10K you can probably find a 25-45K mile, well cared for, 1-2 owner Z28 A4. If you're in the Northeast (or other areas that got massive floods in the past few years) keep an eye out for any ex-"storm" cars. Car Faxes or Autochecks are helpful, but not foolproof. One car I considered in 2011 had a myriad of significant repairs not listed on the Car Fax. They did show up on the GM service warranty repair history.

Your job should be to find a set of owners that have successfully navigated through all these problems....or....babied their car with moderate driving and still have a nearly 100% stock setup that works fine. The forum sections I would visit would be "what's it worth," "general maintenance," "new LS-1 owners," "transmission," "gears and axle," to get an idea of what keeps popping up as issues.

Make sure that the WS6/SS (ie SLP cars) are really that when looking at them. The RPO codes should be clearly listed on the inner door decals. Most will still carry a copy of the SLP options sheet with VIN #. You don't want to pay a WS6 price for a cloned Trans AM. It doesn't happen near as much as cloned classic cars from the pre-1975 era. And do follow the recommendations of seasoned players like RPMWS6, NCO1TA, and others. If you run across their posts, read them. Feel free to post your potential finds in the WIW section to get some feedback. Better to spend a few months learning the ropes than just going out and buying a car. If an M6 is in your future test drive as many as those as you can. Each one will probably sound and feel a bit different. In my mind it's easier to abuse the M6 than the A4. The best bang for the buck are probably cars that have been upgraded or nicely modded a bit yet cost barely more than a stock version. The demand for modded cars is much less than well taken care of pure stock versions. So what you can buy cheap today, will be a tougher sell down the road. An engine and trans upgraded for over 400+ hp could be a problem with the stock rear end and sticky tires.

There are a decent number of nice cars for sale all the time. Don't rush into it thinking the WS6 down at your local used car dealer is a gem that must be snapped up immediately before someone else gets it. That rarely happens. Last night I was cruising on the autotrader.com and saw a deal only 33 miles from me that was insane if it were true: a black 2002 SS M6 convertible with 18K miles from a dealer at $10,700. Best deal of the century...had to be worth $15K-$16K all day long. I searched that VIN on line and found out the car had a reconstructed title back in 2008....and sold in 2012 with 11K miles for $12,100....no mention of the reconstructed title in the ad. So there's almost always a reason for that "too good to be true" deal.

GMTheOnlyWay1

iTrader: (1)

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...s-98-02-a.html

Firebrian

https://ls1tech.com/forums/what-wort...le-sale-2.html

The last post in that thread has some good suggestions when buying. It's just the other side of the same coin.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Overall some great advice above by Firebrian, but there are a few points to expand on/clarify....

Just wanted to clarify for the OP that none of these things are optional on a WS6, other than the CD changer, as that is the car he mentioned being most interested in. Leather is standard on all Trans Ams from 1998 forward, though if you wanted/found a WS6 Formula you could certainly get cloth on those. There were no optional wheels for WS6, other than in model year 2000 when two versions of the 17x9 wheel were offered (RPO N66 standard, and RPO QF6 as a no-cost option and vastly more common), so what you get is the same as any other WS6 of a given model year (other than a specific color wheel for the '02 CETA and '99 30th Anniversary editions, respectively, and a few early 2001 models which still received the previous model year wheels.)

There were no SLP options for LS1 WS6 cars, as none of them ever went to SLP for conversion.

On a personal note, I'd rather not have the leather actually. I've been very disappointed with it in both the Pontiac and Chevy F-bodies, even when purchased new and cared for properly. The cloth holds up much better and, due to less demand, usually brings the price down a bit. I think the demand comes from the fact that many prefer the appearance of leather, but it's definitely not as durable as the cloth offered during the LS1 years.

One area where I have limited experience is with the M6 transmission. I am an auto guy, so I default to the common wisdom that the above stated issues are true. I also agree with the other issues listed above; I too have experienced the cracked battery tray/overflow bottle combo, and pitted factory chrome wheels (on the one that I used to drive in bad weather.)

The link I posted above covers several other common issues of which to be aware when shopping.

More good advice, especially on the coolant. This is often neglected until it becomes a critical problem which requires costly cooling systems repairs to correct. If an owner has taken the time to keep the coolant fresh, this is a very good sign.

Just to again clarify, the WS6 cars were not a product of SLP during the LS1 years. SLP only did the Firehawk and SS conversions, WS6 cars were done by ASC (American Sunroof Company.)

The SPID sticker (Service Parts Identification, found on the driver's door jamb) would include the following RPOs for the following trim packages:

WS6 = WS6
SS = WU8
Firehawk = WU6

I'm on the other side of this preference; color is important to me and is very difficult/expensive to change properly, so regardless of how nice the car or deal is, I won't buy it if the color isn't on my preferred, or at least neutral, list. I've made the mistake of buying colors I didn't like before, I won't do that again. No right or wrong answer here though; it just depends on how important this aspect is to a given individual.

Firebrian

Good clarifications by WS6. If you do want some SLP options not available with the WS6, some were available with the Firehawk. Though, it is also true the FH will usually run you more money. It's probably also true that the more aggressive body styling of the WS6 vs. FH makes the WS6 preferable to many...and it costs less too.

I didn't mean to say color wasn't important. But outside of Pewter I think most people can live with the standard WS6/SS colors. If you want crazy (and desirable) colors than the 1998-1999 Z28's and Firebirds offered some....at extra cost of course. Hugger Orange on 1999 Camaro's is quite popular. I have no problem with black, red, white, silver, and navy blue. Everyone loves Sunset Orange Metallic. And that will typically run at a significant premium to the other 5 colors....assuming it came that way from the factory. Everyone loves black too even if it is the most common color. Red is seen very often as well and you will sometimes see buyers trying to avoid it. If I ran across a "perfect" Pewter car I'd probably buy it. Still waiting on that perfect car though. Going by the "Wanted to Buy" ads in this forum the car most people seem to want is an M6 WS6 and preferably a 2001/2002 in SOM or black. We all can't have one.

Finding the proverbial "right" car that is mechanically, electrically, and cosmetically sound with up to date maintenance (via known owner history) and then priced reasonably is not that easy to find. If a required color is then placed on top of that, it could take many months or years before you run across just that car. The last thing I'd want to do is to accept the "right" color but compromise on the overall condition and/or performance of the car. I'll bet some SOM owners have made that mistake. If you want an absolutely quiet car with no extra engine, M6, or rear end noises, your search just got several times harder. Only 1-2 owners desired? Also several times harder. The perfect car is quite elusive...there may not be such a thing. It's always about trade offs. I've collected both classic cars and F bodies over the past 23 years. I have yet to buy the exact car I wanted with all boxes checked. The only way to do that is to order a new car....or restore one from scratch while modifying it to your exact specifications.

elephantrider

iTrader: (2)

why not look at the lowly ls1 gto as an option ?

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree about pewter, it's the color I had in mind when I mentioned "I've made that mistake before." I actually bought two pewter F-bodies, the first time it was a brand new car and I wanted silver, but the model year was over and the factory incentives were only on the previous year. So I settled for pewter because it was "close" to sliver. Big mistake, as I was never happy with the color and sold it a year later. 7 years later, I bought another one in pewter, but this time was due to the exact reasons you mentioned above; couldn't buy them new and they were 5 years out of production, so compromise had to be made somewhere. Everything else about the car was "right", but it was pewter and I had already disliked and sold one of these before. But I went ahead and bought it anyway since it met every other requirement, drove it for over 7 years and STILL never liked the color and was always bothered by this. Haha. Lesson learned, I won't do that a third time.

I'm in the minority when it comes to black, I see this is an undesirable color on most modern cars. Too monochromatic, since most trim is also black on newer vehicles. It does look very nice on old cars though, when offset by chrome/stainless trim. Black is also quite a chore for keeping clean, just not worth it to me. I've owned one before and would probably buy another if everything else was right, but it's definitely not on my preferred list.

The CETA yellow and Monterrey Maroon Metallic/Maple Red Metallic are the only other colors I would group with pewter as being no-gos for me.

I do agree about the compromise factor though, this becomes even more critical as any platform ages and the available pool shrinks. I was extremely lucky to find every exact option that was important to me when I bought my '98, also including condition, mileage and history requirements, but that was over a decade ago when production had just barely ended and there was still a ton of good, low hanging fruit to be picked. Now that we are 13 years out of production, finding something super specific in premium condition would in fact be quite a chore.

Having said that, I think it's important to be flexible on certain options/requirements, and have 2nd, 3rd and even 4th "favorites" on one's list of possible options. Trans type and color though, they are the two most difficult to change (aside from roof type), so those are always quite important to me. Some small repairs or minor maintenance that needs to be done, or even a sale price that's a bit higher than desired would be better than settling for a color or trans type that is totally unappealing to me. Many people obsess over getting an '01-'02 car, but having personal experience with both the early years and the 2002s, I see no reason to make this a top priority. I'd worry about getting the "right" color before worrying about getting a late model year example, as those model year differences are easier to change and/or don't matter as much (to me, at least) as some people seem to suggest.

This is a very different car, with different positives and negatives. If the OP is not dead set on an F-body but still wants an LS1, I would also suggest looking at C5s then.

elephantrider

iTrader: (2)

^ very true.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

great advice here. many things i wasnt aware of. thanks.

Chimneyyo

Wow! Thanks for all the info guys. I'm starting to think that as bad as I want a ws6 they're so rare I might have to wait a while or go with a ss/z28 camaro. I've found a few birds and there's one I'm kind of interested in but it's not in my state, the seller seems sketchy and its only 6500 for a 00 with 70k on the body with a fresh engine to drop in with a cam and ported and polished heads which just seems too good to be true. I've seen pictures and they don't look bad at all but it just seems unusually cheap. And they last thing I want to do is drop the money, fly to pick it up and find out the tranny/rear is blown. I'm also thinking on the off chance that its legit that its one hell of a deal and I'd have a wicked car pushing around 400hp with a nice chunk of money left over.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

There's nothing rare about a WS6 Trans Am (compared to the whole of LS1 F-body production), they actually built more of these than base Trans Ams by the 2002 model year. Every year had 4-digit production or more, with 5-digits by 2002 for sure. You will have an easier time finding one than you would, say, a Firehawk or even a base Formula. Just to clarify, their value comes from popularity, not rarity.

Now if you mean a WS6 Formula, then yes this would be a very rare car indeed. They were only built until 2000, with annual production totals in the 175-250 units range, so well less than 1,000 total.

Some people don't mind traveling to get a car, personally I'm not willing to go more than ~100 miles or so, especially if anything about the car seems suspect or just too good to be true. I've been disappointed too many times to take the gamble of traveling many hundreds of miles for an unknown quantity. It would take a very special circumstance to motivate me to do this.

Firebrian

Long distance purchases are difficult to say the least. All of my F body purchases were all done within 75 miles even though I considered cars as far away as 300-500 miles. If the seller is not gushing forth with tons of information, they're probably not your guy. A "fresh" engine to drop in is far different than one you can test drive. That would be a deal breaker for me as you can't evaluate anything important on that car. So why don't "they" drop the engine in? I have a hard enough time evaluating all the mechanical systems on a car when it's running and driving....let alone stone cold and stationary. I agree with WS6RPM that WS6's are pretty common....and the Camaro's are even more common. What makes it hard is finding that 1 car out of 10 that is decent, functioning well, cared for, and priced right.

$6500 for a 2000 - 70K mile Trans Am or Formula isn't exactly a deal with the engine out. That car might be only be worth $6K-$8K with a used 70K mile running engine in it. Even if a WS6 it still has "RISKY" written all over it.

If we're talking risky, a dealer only 45 miles from me in 2011 had a 31K mile 2001 black WS6 M6 for $10,000. It was a 1 owner trade-in that just showed up over the weekend. They admitted the car had some concerns. The Car Fax showed some internal engine bearing work under warranty at <15K miles along with other mechanical work. It seemed worth the trip to look at it. Yeah, the body was thrashed as it was left outside in summer and winter all year round without cover. It needed paint and some fiberglass work on the rear wing. And in deeper investigation on my own, the owner had been through 2 sets of brakesz, 2 sets of exhaust pipes and cats, as well as shifter, side mirrors, and several other items....all in the first 3 yrs/17K miles! The car led a hard life despite the mileage. The interior was beat too with the driver's seat flattened to a pulp and torn up on 3 sides. The carpet had holes at the boot heels and was badly stained. Frankly, the car looked like 131K miles rather than 31K. The tires were shot and not safe to drive on. Even at $10K that car wasn't worth the risk to me as a cheap, "low mileage" beater. Maybe it worked out for the next owner. The new car dealership decided not to sell that car to a customer and wholesaled it to a used car lot in the next state over. A few months later I saw the car advertised as a low mileage stunner with fresh paint and redone interior for $12,500.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

This is exactly correct, there are 10s of thousands of these cars out there, with nice/low mile SS/WS6 cars being just about as easy (or sometimes easier) to find as any comparably nice/low mile base trim level V8 model, the difficulty/"rarity" lies in finding those few premium examples that are [mostly] optioned the way you want and still within your budget.

In fact, I would argue that at this point it's generally easier to find the higher trim level examples with low miles/good condition versus their base trim level counterparts. I see very low mile/extremely nice WS6/SS cars pop up more often than comparable Formula/base TA/Z28 models, I guess this is because more people who bought the higher trim levels originally (and subsequently) did so with the intention of using them for fair weather toys rather than daily drivers. The fact that they continue to command a higher price means that this trend will likely continue, and the spread will keep growing.

You definitely won't have an impossible time finding a nice WS6 (as compared to any other trim level), there were a ton of them built and many have been kept nice. The challenge will be finding a nice one that is also optioned and priced within your desired range, and located within a reasonable distance. But this same challenge exists for any trim level of LS1 F-body, as the good, low hanging fruit was mostly exhausted many years ago.

Chimneyyo

I hear ya, most F bodies I've been finding are in shambles. I checked a lot of used car lots and didn't find a damn one, a ton of F150s, hondas, and toyotas of the same year but no f bodies. I did find one I went and checked out today that I'm thinking about scooping up. 1998 Camaro SS, Texas speed stage 3 cam, Nitrous only shot once, long tube headers, redone suspension, drilled and slotted rotters, engine looked solid and drove great. No tranny problems that I could tell. I'll be giving it a second look in a few days where I'll take it out and give it a better drive. The cam doesn't really bother me, the car is tuned for it and has been maintained very well. The Nitrous is a different story and I don't ever see myself using it. 100 shot, don't know if it's wet or dry. 129K, A4. Very clean. The only things it needs is a slightly better tune so I can run the AC and I plan on changing the rear rims because I don't like the price of 18 inch tires but I don't know if that's a good idea or not. Still, this F body was obviously very well maintained. No leaks, crawled under the body, rear diff shows to signs of external worry. I'm thinking this might be it. He's asking 7K

Michael Yount

iTrader: (1)

The engine only inhaled once.....careful there.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Has the transmission ever been rebuilt? At 130k, even a stock example would be nearing the point where a rebuild might be needed if the fluid wasn't maintained properly and/or the car was driven hard. But with a bigger cam you can expect that the shift points have been raised, and increased shift points are an exponential wear factor for the stock trans - especially when combined with the increased power of the engine build, and ESPECIALLY when a shot of N2O was added on top of that. I'd rarely believe anyone who said they only "sprayed it once", but that's just me. So assuming it was sprayed more than once, was he spraying through the shifts? That would be even worse for the trans. Early warning signs of an issue might only include bouncing off the rev limiter/delayed 2-3 upshift at WOT, so a typical test drive may not reveal this.

Not saying that the car should be avoided based on this alone, but overall I would just expect the trans to need a performance rebuild at some point in the near future if it hasn't already received one. Maybe it won't need it for a while, but better to go into the deal being prepared for such as it's a definite possibility given the totality of circumstances.