'99 30th T/A fuel pump issues...won't start after being stored for years
06-21-2016, 04:16 AM
#1
'99 30th T/A fuel pump issues...won't start after being stored for years Hi everyone...
I have a '99 30th Anniversary Trans Am that I bought new in 1999. It has been stored in a garage since about 2008; just prior to storage the entire fuel pump assembly was replaced by the dealer and it ran fine; it has about 100 miles on that pump, if that. The car has about 19,927 miles on it right now.
When I stored the car it barely had any gas in it (maybe a gallon, if that) along with some Sta-bil. It hasn't been started since then (I know, I know...).
Anyway about two weeks ago I poured some seafoam into the tank and tried to add about 2 gallons of gas but it wouldn't accept any. I pressed the green evap/purge valve and didn't really notice any pressure release, but after that I was able to pour about 2.5 gallons into the car. I put a battery charger on it and a few days later tried to start it...nothing. It turned over, but it didn't start. I messed with the relays then but that was it. Still wouldn't start.
Today I looked more into it. I cleaned and swapped all the relays around, checked and cleaned the fuses and connections and every connector I could get to. I then cleaned and treated the connectors behind the driver's rear wheel. Still won't start, and nothing shoots out of the schrader valve at ANY time. There wasn't even any residual pressure in there from the last time it ran years ago. I didn't have my multimeter with me so I wasn't able to check voltage or ground at the connectors behind the rear wheel. But...SOMETHING is pulling current through the fuel pump relay.
I assumed the pump was dead...I can't hear it whine when it's supposed to prime although I DO hear a click from around the gas tank. What could this "click" be AT the gas tank itself? I hear nothing else back there.
BUT...when I jump the relay contacts 30 and 87 feeding 12v direct to the fuel pump, the jumper wire gets hot to the touch and sparks when the jumper wire first touches the contacts. That means the fuel pump is drawing current. But, still NOTHING comes out of the schrader valve when depressed. I disconnected the rubber fuel line going to the fuel filter from the tank, and clean thin yellow gas came out from both that line and the fuel filter. I was able to remove the schrader valve and blow easily with my mouth through the line and filter toward the back of the car. There was no restriction there. But, when I jump the fuel pump relay contacts even with the rubber line from the tank wide open at the filter, the pump draws current but NOTHING comes out of that line from the tank. Not a drop.
It's acting as if the pump is dead...but again, if the pump is dead why is it drawing current?
Could it actually be that I just don't have enough gas in the tank to prime the pump? It probably has just a bit over 2.5 gallons in the tank. It is fresh ethanol-free gas mixed with a small amount of old old old old gas from 2008. It has a can of seafoam in it and two cans of techron at the moment.
I just don't see how a pump with 100 miles on it can be suddenly dead from sitting when the gas seems to be clean and free-flowing. Remember, the car sat for 8 or so years, and I couldn't put any gas in it at first the other day. I still think that if the pump was dead it wouldn't be drawing any current...but it's drawing enough to make my admittedly thin gauge jumper wire hot to the touch. But, NO gas comes out of the fuel line whatsoever.
Should I try putting another 2.5 or so gallons in the tank? I know Racetronix requires 10 gallons in the tank just to prime a new pump, but I can't find a reason for that.
Could it be that for sitting for so long with so little gas in the tank, the pump just needs more gas in the tank to prime it properly so that it can actually start to pump fuel into the lines?
Do these pumps NOT pump or prime at all if there is too little initial gas in the tank?
WHY would the pump be drawing current if it's dead?
Please help!
Thanks!
Jeff
I have a '99 30th Anniversary Trans Am that I bought new in 1999. It has been stored in a garage since about 2008; just prior to storage the entire fuel pump assembly was replaced by the dealer and it ran fine; it has about 100 miles on that pump, if that. The car has about 19,927 miles on it right now.
When I stored the car it barely had any gas in it (maybe a gallon, if that) along with some Sta-bil. It hasn't been started since then (I know, I know...).
Anyway about two weeks ago I poured some seafoam into the tank and tried to add about 2 gallons of gas but it wouldn't accept any. I pressed the green evap/purge valve and didn't really notice any pressure release, but after that I was able to pour about 2.5 gallons into the car. I put a battery charger on it and a few days later tried to start it...nothing. It turned over, but it didn't start. I messed with the relays then but that was it. Still wouldn't start.
Today I looked more into it. I cleaned and swapped all the relays around, checked and cleaned the fuses and connections and every connector I could get to. I then cleaned and treated the connectors behind the driver's rear wheel. Still won't start, and nothing shoots out of the schrader valve at ANY time. There wasn't even any residual pressure in there from the last time it ran years ago. I didn't have my multimeter with me so I wasn't able to check voltage or ground at the connectors behind the rear wheel. But...SOMETHING is pulling current through the fuel pump relay.
I assumed the pump was dead...I can't hear it whine when it's supposed to prime although I DO hear a click from around the gas tank. What could this "click" be AT the gas tank itself? I hear nothing else back there.
BUT...when I jump the relay contacts 30 and 87 feeding 12v direct to the fuel pump, the jumper wire gets hot to the touch and sparks when the jumper wire first touches the contacts. That means the fuel pump is drawing current. But, still NOTHING comes out of the schrader valve when depressed. I disconnected the rubber fuel line going to the fuel filter from the tank, and clean thin yellow gas came out from both that line and the fuel filter. I was able to remove the schrader valve and blow easily with my mouth through the line and filter toward the back of the car. There was no restriction there. But, when I jump the fuel pump relay contacts even with the rubber line from the tank wide open at the filter, the pump draws current but NOTHING comes out of that line from the tank. Not a drop.
It's acting as if the pump is dead...but again, if the pump is dead why is it drawing current?
Could it actually be that I just don't have enough gas in the tank to prime the pump? It probably has just a bit over 2.5 gallons in the tank. It is fresh ethanol-free gas mixed with a small amount of old old old old gas from 2008. It has a can of seafoam in it and two cans of techron at the moment.
I just don't see how a pump with 100 miles on it can be suddenly dead from sitting when the gas seems to be clean and free-flowing. Remember, the car sat for 8 or so years, and I couldn't put any gas in it at first the other day. I still think that if the pump was dead it wouldn't be drawing any current...but it's drawing enough to make my admittedly thin gauge jumper wire hot to the touch. But, NO gas comes out of the fuel line whatsoever.
Should I try putting another 2.5 or so gallons in the tank? I know Racetronix requires 10 gallons in the tank just to prime a new pump, but I can't find a reason for that.
Could it be that for sitting for so long with so little gas in the tank, the pump just needs more gas in the tank to prime it properly so that it can actually start to pump fuel into the lines?
Do these pumps NOT pump or prime at all if there is too little initial gas in the tank?
WHY would the pump be drawing current if it's dead?
Please help!
Thanks!
Jeff
Last edited by ggoat!!!; 06-21-2016 at 04:21 AM.
06-21-2016, 12:34 PM
#4
Your pump isn't "dead" as in electrically dead but likely frozen/locked up. In my experience, fuel pumps "die" more often from sitting dry than they do running. The electric motor will still draw current trying to overcome the friction inside the pump, presenting the exact symptoms you are looking at. There are other outside possibilities like wire grounded(albeit poorly) somewhere but I am assuming that's not it with under 20K on the car.
So you've got a pump that is designed to live its life typically submerged in a solvent(gas). Don't be surprised when you let it sit dry and it locks up.
Usually when I pull a working pump from a car, especially if I am selling it or know it will be sitting a good while, I will pour Lucas fuel stabilizer into the end of the pump and fill it up and then put it in a bag. Sometimes you can even revive a stuck or noisy pump with the same stuff, but in this case it sounds like you will need to pull the tank anyway, and after that amount of work, you are best installing a new pump.
My more adventurous side wants to say that you could fill the tank to more than half, add a lot of the Lucas product, let the pump soak for a few days, and try cycling the key on/off a bunch of time and possibly "unstick" the pump but I still wouldn't trust it long-term.
Alternately you could disconnect the line form the pump side and force Lucas and gasoline into the pump but you have check valves and such that will probably prevent that from working.
But short answer: I think your pump is "stuck" and a "stuck" DC electric motor will still draw current in my experience.
So you've got a pump that is designed to live its life typically submerged in a solvent(gas). Don't be surprised when you let it sit dry and it locks up.
Usually when I pull a working pump from a car, especially if I am selling it or know it will be sitting a good while, I will pour Lucas fuel stabilizer into the end of the pump and fill it up and then put it in a bag. Sometimes you can even revive a stuck or noisy pump with the same stuff, but in this case it sounds like you will need to pull the tank anyway, and after that amount of work, you are best installing a new pump.
My more adventurous side wants to say that you could fill the tank to more than half, add a lot of the Lucas product, let the pump soak for a few days, and try cycling the key on/off a bunch of time and possibly "unstick" the pump but I still wouldn't trust it long-term.
Alternately you could disconnect the line form the pump side and force Lucas and gasoline into the pump but you have check valves and such that will probably prevent that from working.
But short answer: I think your pump is "stuck" and a "stuck" DC electric motor will still draw current in my experience.
06-21-2016, 01:05 PM
#5
What about wiring the pump in reverse for a few short bursts to "unstick" it? Is wiring these pumps backward possible by reversing the 12v and ground wires going directly to the pump? Or, are these pumps immediately damaged by doing so? I thought of running the pump backward for a few moments while beating on the tank with a rubber mallet after the letting the pump sit in highly treated new fuel with something strong like B12 Chemtool for a week or so...
Also...if I wanted to soak the pump, just how many treated fuel gallons should I add to the tank?
Thanks again!
Also...if I wanted to soak the pump, just how many treated fuel gallons should I add to the tank?
Thanks again!
06-21-2016, 01:08 PM
#6
TECH Apprentice
from my friend
Try these 2 things first before cracking into the tank.
1 -Replace fuel filter. Gas sits in the lines and filter and will turn to crap when sitting for that long. Hold off on replacing it until you finish with the next step.
2 - While you have the filter line disconnected -disconnect the line also at the fuel rail, Have some one put a bottle on that end and with an air hose blow in the line. This will let you know if you have a clog or trash in the line. If the person on the end with the bottle doesn't feel/hear or it's very weak, anything coming thru the line most likely it's clogged. If it's good now try this. It's a little tricky and can be messy, have a drain pan or a large mouth bottle to catch any gas. One person again at the bottle but this time it's before the filter but coming off the pump. Turn key on and see if it tries to prime the system. If it does, then you know it's the filter. If it doesn't then you'll need to go into the tank and trouble shoot. Sitting that long even with Sta-bil gas goes bad
Try these 2 things first before cracking into the tank.
1 -Replace fuel filter. Gas sits in the lines and filter and will turn to crap when sitting for that long. Hold off on replacing it until you finish with the next step.
2 - While you have the filter line disconnected -disconnect the line also at the fuel rail, Have some one put a bottle on that end and with an air hose blow in the line. This will let you know if you have a clog or trash in the line. If the person on the end with the bottle doesn't feel/hear or it's very weak, anything coming thru the line most likely it's clogged. If it's good now try this. It's a little tricky and can be messy, have a drain pan or a large mouth bottle to catch any gas. One person again at the bottle but this time it's before the filter but coming off the pump. Turn key on and see if it tries to prime the system. If it does, then you know it's the filter. If it doesn't then you'll need to go into the tank and trouble shoot. Sitting that long even with Sta-bil gas goes bad
06-21-2016, 01:24 PM
#7
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I think this is the issue as well. A brand new pump will do fine sitting dry on a shelf, but once it's been put into service and is living in a tank environment, there seems to be issues with letting them sit for long periods in a tank that's nearly empty. Others have noted the same condition in the past.
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06-21-2016, 01:44 PM
#8
from my friend
Try these 2 things first before cracking into the tank.
1 -Replace fuel filter. Gas sits in the lines and filter and will turn to crap when sitting for that long. Hold off on replacing it until you finish with the next step.
2 - While you have the filter line disconnected -disconnect the line also at the fuel rail, Have some one put a bottle on that end and with an air hose blow in the line. This will let you know if you have a clog or trash in the line. If the person on the end with the bottle doesn't feel/hear or it's very weak, anything coming thru the line most likely it's clogged. If it's good now try this. It's a little tricky and can be messy, have a drain pan or a large mouth bottle to catch any gas. One person again at the bottle but this time it's before the filter but coming off the pump. Turn key on and see if it tries to prime the system. If it does, then you know it's the filter. If it doesn't then you'll need to go into the tank and trouble shoot. Sitting that long even with Sta-bil gas goes bad
Try these 2 things first before cracking into the tank.
1 -Replace fuel filter. Gas sits in the lines and filter and will turn to crap when sitting for that long. Hold off on replacing it until you finish with the next step.
2 - While you have the filter line disconnected -disconnect the line also at the fuel rail, Have some one put a bottle on that end and with an air hose blow in the line. This will let you know if you have a clog or trash in the line. If the person on the end with the bottle doesn't feel/hear or it's very weak, anything coming thru the line most likely it's clogged. If it's good now try this. It's a little tricky and can be messy, have a drain pan or a large mouth bottle to catch any gas. One person again at the bottle but this time it's before the filter but coming off the pump. Turn key on and see if it tries to prime the system. If it does, then you know it's the filter. If it doesn't then you'll need to go into the tank and trouble shoot. Sitting that long even with Sta-bil gas goes bad
I disconnected the rubber line going to the fuel filter. About 16 ounces of clean yellow thin gas drained out of the rubber line. But, when I jumped the relay connections to run the pump directly nothing came out of this line even being disconnected from the filter. Not a drop. But, the pump was pulling current.
I removed the schrader valve at the rail and blew with my mouth through the line back through the filter. It was easy with no restriction whatsoever. Yellow thin clean gas blew backward out the filter with no problems. So, that line isn't clogged, and the fuel in that line wasn't gummy whatsoever.
If the 8 year old gas in the line from the filter to the rail was clean and non-gummy, why and how would the gas in the bottom of the tank itself become so gummy that it destroyed the pump?
Also...the fuel gauge works fine with no problem.
06-21-2016, 02:10 PM
#9
I already did this, but maybe my first post was too long that it got missed.
I disconnected the rubber line going to the fuel filter. About 16 ounces of clean yellow thin gas drained out of the rubber line. But, when I jumped the relay connections to run the pump directly nothing came out of this line even being disconnected from the filter. Not a drop. But, the pump was pulling current.
I removed the schrader valve at the rail and blew with my mouth through the line back through the filter. It was easy with no restriction whatsoever. Yellow thin clean gas blew backward out the filter with no problems. So, that line isn't clogged, and the fuel in that line wasn't gummy whatsoever.
If the 8 year old gas in the line from the filter to the rail was clean and non-gummy, why and how would the gas in the bottom of the tank itself become so gummy that it destroyed the pump?
Also...the fuel gauge works fine with no problem.
I disconnected the rubber line going to the fuel filter. About 16 ounces of clean yellow thin gas drained out of the rubber line. But, when I jumped the relay connections to run the pump directly nothing came out of this line even being disconnected from the filter. Not a drop. But, the pump was pulling current.
I removed the schrader valve at the rail and blew with my mouth through the line back through the filter. It was easy with no restriction whatsoever. Yellow thin clean gas blew backward out the filter with no problems. So, that line isn't clogged, and the fuel in that line wasn't gummy whatsoever.
If the 8 year old gas in the line from the filter to the rail was clean and non-gummy, why and how would the gas in the bottom of the tank itself become so gummy that it destroyed the pump?
Also...the fuel gauge works fine with no problem.
What are your intentions with the car? If you just need to prove it running to sell to a collector for a soft restoration or so, maybe worth banging/filling/blowing/screwing around with things to get it working. If you intend for this car to be reliable at all, I think you should be headed for a new pump regardless, so why not drop the tank before you put any more fuel in it?
06-21-2016, 05:00 PM
#10
My intentions are to keep the car and to eventually replace the pump when I have the time and funds to drop the tank. But for now, I would like to just get it started so that I can drive it out of the storage facility where it is and wash/polish/detail it (it's filthy externally) and drive it around the block every now and then as well as to my home where I can do normal maintenance and service to it. The Dex-Clog is also starting to drip out since I turned the engine over a bunch of times. For years it was dry as a bone underneath, now something's dripping a tiny amount. Not really worried about that yet. Should have gotten rid of the Dex-Clog years ago.
06-22-2016, 04:21 AM
#11
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Beyond that, a poorly maintained cooling system will have issues no matter what type of coolant is used. It's false to assume that other types of coolant won't ever have issues if they are neglected in a seldom used application such as this.
FWIW, my '98 has even lower miles that your '99, so it sits plenty. My cooling system is 100% assembly line original, other than the coolant having been changed several times. Still uses Dexcool, and not a single leak after 18 years.
06-22-2016, 09:53 AM
#12
Not necessarily "gummy", but several events can happen. Air trapped in the tank contains moisture, which can lead to rust/corrosion (especially if the old fuel contained any ethanol, but that's not a requirement for issues.) Even fuel additives (such as Stabil, etc.) won't keep that tank environment and fuel safe and fresh over the course of 8 years without a refresh. Less fuel in the tank means more air (and moisture), and more of the pump exposed.
Dexcool itself is absolutely not a problem in LS1 applications, issues only arise if the system is poorly maintained (coolant never changed), or significant air is allowed to remain in the system over a prolonged period of operation, or it is mixed with other types of coolant, or dirty water is used for the blend.
Beyond that, a poorly maintained cooling system will have issues no matter what type of coolant is used. It's false to assume that other types of coolant won't ever have issues if they are neglected in a seldom used application such as this.
FWIW, my '98 has even lower miles that your '99, so it sits plenty. My cooling system is 100% assembly line original, other than the coolant having been changed several times. Still uses Dexcool, and not a single leak after 18 years.
Dexcool itself is absolutely not a problem in LS1 applications, issues only arise if the system is poorly maintained (coolant never changed), or significant air is allowed to remain in the system over a prolonged period of operation, or it is mixed with other types of coolant, or dirty water is used for the blend.
Beyond that, a poorly maintained cooling system will have issues no matter what type of coolant is used. It's false to assume that other types of coolant won't ever have issues if they are neglected in a seldom used application such as this.
FWIW, my '98 has even lower miles that your '99, so it sits plenty. My cooling system is 100% assembly line original, other than the coolant having been changed several times. Still uses Dexcool, and not a single leak after 18 years.
I think I'm going to put about 4 cans of B12 Chemtool in it with the multiple cans of techron and seafoam already in it and add about 6 or 7 gallons of fresh ethanol-free gas to submerge the pump and let it sit for a week or so then try to hit the pump wired in reverse for a few short bursts to "unstick it." Should adding the 6-7 gallons combined with the approximately 3 gallons currently in the tank be enough to adequately submerge and soak the pump?
06-22-2016, 08:06 PM
#13
I'm not really concerned about the coolant leaks right now...just the fuel pump issues.
I think I'm going to put about 4 cans of B12 Chemtool in it with the multiple cans of techron and seafoam already in it and add about 6 or 7 gallons of fresh ethanol-free gas to submerge the pump and let it sit for a week or so then try to hit the pump wired in reverse for a few short bursts to "unstick it." Should adding the 6-7 gallons combined with the approximately 3 gallons currently in the tank be enough to adequately submerge and soak the pump?
I think I'm going to put about 4 cans of B12 Chemtool in it with the multiple cans of techron and seafoam already in it and add about 6 or 7 gallons of fresh ethanol-free gas to submerge the pump and let it sit for a week or so then try to hit the pump wired in reverse for a few short bursts to "unstick it." Should adding the 6-7 gallons combined with the approximately 3 gallons currently in the tank be enough to adequately submerge and soak the pump?
06-22-2016, 08:15 PM
#14
So, the tank has about 11.5 to 12 gallons total of fresh ethanol-free 91 octane gas along with 3 bottles of seafoam and 3 bottles of techron in addition to the 4 bottles of B12 Chemtool. The fuel gauge is about 1/8" below the full mark now.
That oughta do SOMETHING.
Still doesn't prime or start but I will let it sit about a week or so then check it and go from there.
06-23-2016, 12:35 AM
#15
A couple of good light taps with a rubber Mallet while priming the pump without starting may work. I would not try to crank for a while until the pump gives some sort of whine.
06-24-2016, 12:34 PM
#17
I hear a distinct "click" coming from the fuel tank area but no whine or whirr. I'm assuming the click is either the evap system or the fuel pump TRYING to start (at least I hope).
06-25-2016, 10:44 PM
#18
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Another vote for locked up pump. If it was mine, I'd door the trap door mod and the pull the pump just to see. Its possible you could break it loose outside the car easier , but I'd just put a new pump in it
06-27-2016, 02:26 PM
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I would cut the hole in mine (17k mile, 97 point car) as well, as the factory should have put a panel there in the first place IMO. But some people are opposed to this.