Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Ok guys I have not had much time for the boards here lately due to the large work load and preparing our booth for the PRI show. Ohh yeah see us at booth 1773 and 1775 at pri

This post is mostly for the serious nitrous cars looking for max reliable hp. However for the street guys I feel if you follow this thread you will learn a way to get max performance out of your street/strip car using the right products and methods as well.

Before I go into detail with the direction I am taking this post I want to start off the discussion with a couple of questions to get you guys thinking.

First question
Why do you think the turbo guys are able to get away with pushing more boost than we can spray on nitrous?

Second question
Are we utilizing the all the right technical advancements available to build a serious contending nitrous car?

Dave

FastBlackTA

iTrader: (7)

Question 1:

1) Heat - which derives directly from 2) Rate and control of "power delivery"

Loudmouth LS1

iTrader: (10)

Don't know if this is right, but i'm gonna throw it out there, I always kind of thought that boost would kind of get to a certain cylinder pressure and just hold and nitrous will just keep on raising the cylinder pressure therefore lifting heads and so forth sooner and the boost guys usually ramp in boost with their controller which helps soften the hit and keep pressure down I would think, and most of the nitrous guys try and throw everything at it and the kitchen sink all at once, I think we could get a much larger shot out of the car if we used a progressive and did the same thing, but would have to find a way to pull timing out as the shot progressed in, kind of the same way the boost guys do. Am I on the right track here?

Me and a buddy were pondering this the other night actually, I might try some things with my car whenever I can start spending money on it again and get a real kit on her.

HELLBENTfabrication

"First question
Why do you think the turbo guys are able to get away with pushing more boost than we can spray on nitrous?"

poor question, you can spray the snot out of a properly built, engineered engine with the proper tuning. ask billy glidden...unfortunately doing so requires trial and error. nitrous tuning is an exact science and since the technology is still rapidly progressing its hard for everyone to keep up with the change, different systems require different tunes. there are many variables that can make or break a nitrous tune. and many people dont know what those variables are yet.
you have to remember your not just pushing atmosphere into the engine, your adding a purified oxygen mixture from a liquid form. oxygen burns damn hot so you have to add fuel to cool the mix. all this has to be properly atomized while in the intake runners for proper combustion.


creating a fuel curve for a boosted application is much easier then fine tuning a nitrous system to the max while trying not to melt engine parts IMO. i feel boosted applications are the easy way out. hell i was gunna go boosted until i opened my wallet

HELLBENTfabrication

you are exactly right. ive seen junk engines take a huge shot and survive because the system and timing were progressed

Noyzee

iTrader: (37)

i feel if i had the cash for the BS3 and the trust in progressive controlers with a little time and practice i could run a spray car more like a turbo car and make it live at low 8 high 7 second passes with the new heads and block etc etc etc. it can be done, just not cheep, and i dont have the wallet to do it.
if someone had a pile of cash i think i could help in putting a nasty ls base car together.
my home built heep with my 1st time tuning a 98 computer with hp tuners runs pretty good for a motor built in my garage, no clean room etc.

Twin76mmTA

iTrader: (1)

HEAD FLOW

Boost cars really dont need a huge head to make big power. Nitrous cars have to be able to make HP Na and augment it with the Bottle.

Once 400cfm heads are readily available seeing high 7 sec cars will be more likely. Not to mention people being a little to aggressive with the tune and not using a nitrous spec fuel like c23 to help keep the motor alive.

One thing is people may be over complicating the systems with too many electronics. a multiple stage system on digiset timers seems the way to go, not with progressive controllers

Noyzee

iTrader: (37)

i have an inside scoop at a set of 6 bolt heads flowing big numbers. i'll be testing these next season with a bigger solid roller and more spray. i cant wait

JL ws-6

iTrader: (50)

I have actually asked this question to alot of people, and the shock of the nitrous is the biggest problem, 2nd is the fact that there's alot of trial and error, and with all the differnet kits out there and different people running differnt products set up in differnet ways (that's alot of differences!) nitrous guys can't share info the same way as boosted cars can with fuel maps for certain turbo's, and whatnot.

I honestly think, that with the right $ you could put 3 kits on and get a car into the 7's, but you'd have to creep up on it, freshening the motor alot to keep it in good enough shape by the time you get to the speed so it will stay together.

Look @ promod's, those guys have 5, some have 6 kits on the cars, they don't use them all, they use 2 or 3 at a time becuase they hit differently and this is how they control the power to get down the track and keep the motor alive at the speeds they're running.

Noone has put that type of technology to a nitrous car, I haven't seen a single lsx car with a sheet metal intake on it with 3 or 4 kits so that they have the ability to tune to the track and the conditions like a promod can, and that's the real reason you haven't seen anything running that fast.

I know that Eastside's record holding car could have gone a good bit faster with what was learned this year, but with the car gone it's not gonna happen.

Can a nitrous lsx car go into the 7's, yes it is possible, but I just don't know if it will stay together, the tuneup is so critical that the chances are you'd blow it up 10 times before you get it perfect.

I mean you need 2000 hp to go mid to bottom 7's, and you might be able to put a motor together with the parts that could take the nitrous that would make 600 rwhp if you're lucky, now you have to hit that with 1200 hp worth of nitrous. I don't know too many people that have been able to put 500 to these engines and have it stay together for more then one run, nevermind 1200 worth. To get that much nitrous into the cylinders, I dunno if the technology is there to be honest.


One thing I think that is needed that noone's really done, if you want that to stay together, you're gonna have to build a motor that can spin 10000 rpm so the cylinder pressures won't want to lift the heads and crack the pistons, and if you get that, I dunno if the pistons would be able to take the heat that 1000 hp worth of nitrous would create.

This, is one of the reasons I'm looking very seriously about ditching nitrous and going to FI, to run at the 9.5x speed I'm at now I'm fine with nitrous, but to get the car to the limit of the chassis cert I dunno if it's pratical to even try, becasue I want to be able to go a season at a time without having to rebuild the motor, and to go 8.5x with a nitrous lsx at that speed, I don't think that's gonna happen. 8.9 yes I think that is doable, but 8.5 I dunno that's really pushing it and asking alot.

FastBlackTA

iTrader: (7)

We really dont NEED a BS3 system though (unless you are hell bent on running a dry direct port). Sure, BS3 nice to have, but you are still unable to measure the increased amount of air injected into our motors (Unless you are using a dry nozzle in front of the MAF). We can manipulate our stock computers to pull timing for several stages, even set it to pull timing after a certain amount of time.

I think the real issue is we have nowhere near the control of power delivery that the turbo cars have. Most nitrous systems (unless you are using a progressive unit) are either ON or OFF. There is no in between. Therefore, if you are running 3 stages each set for 200, you would see a dyno graph that looks like a stair-step. It's crude, and instead of gradually bringing in power we are bringing it in 200 hp at a time.

My brother's turbo buick, on the other hand, has complete control of power delivery through his boost controller and FAST system. He can plot out boost curves of basically any shape, and alters the rate of power delivery with a few keystrokes. On my trans am, I'm stuck with changing jets and setting my digiset to bring my two stages as quickly as possible, but that's all I've got.

We know that braking up our big hits into a few stages helps will keeping the heads on, but, once again, we are sill bringing in stages that are either ON or OFF. There is nothing in between, and it's just very hard on parts.

Twin76mmTA

iTrader: (1)

you dont need 2000hp to go mid 7's. Radial Cars need that power because they cant leave under full power because they will blow the tires off of the car so they have to ramp it up dpwn the track and rely on the 2nd half of the track.

Nitrous guys are very competitive 1/8 mile since they can choose exactly how to apply the power.

Robin L is going 7.70's i think with his LSX prototype heads and 1 kit. the car is sorted out and is running a 5spd to keep the car in it's powerband.

It is going to come down to someone spending TURBO TYPE money on a Nitrous setup to have it run, not your average racer motor build.

Billy Glidden is goin 6.50's with a 400ci SBF and 2 Kits in his XTF car.

When the heads are available then you'll see the numbers, the motor has to make the BHP without being run to the ragged edge then add the nitrous to it. not the other way around.

Noyzee

iTrader: (37)

i slightly agree, but at the same time i dont. with beter parts then i had it would be pretty easy to push 700+ rwhp on motor. im hoping to be there next season. im hoping to run bottom 9's on motor, then bottoms 8's on 200-300 in 2 stages. then hit it with 300-500 in 2 stages and see if she will go 7's and get thrown out.
i ran the **** out of my car the last 2 seasons, and i could send you my rings and bearings to reuse in any motor you wanted.
i accually sold my rods when i did i sent them out with the bearings, if they are the correct size im pretty sure the new owner will reuse them. they are PERFECT, very low stress on the parts in my motor.

i also know with my transbrake issue the car got killed time wise, but went 127 in the 1/8th and thats with on the gas, fully off the gas, back on it again and still went 8.7 at 155 and that was shutting down at 800-900 feet.
i think i'll be in good shape next year

Twin76mmTA

iTrader: (1)

Thats all you really need, but yoy may want to add 1-2 more stages to really get everything out of the system.



Some eye candy for you

allmotor

Hope this helps to advance the discussion. Let me know if I am wrong on any of this



Boost forces atmospheric air into the motor. Atmospheric air contains ~21% oxygen. Nitrous is injecting artificial atmosphere into the motor. Nitrous Oxide (N2O) is composed of 30% oxygen, but "oxygen" per say is really O2(because it is a diatomic molecule, so it bonds with itself to become stable, as it has 6 outer electrons), so it takes 2 molecules of Nitrous Oxide to create 1 molecule of O2. Boosted cars make constant boost pressures down the length of the track. They also use camshafts with less valve overlap, because with too much overlap the boost would just pass through the motor. While a nitrous car makes a pass, bottle pressure drops and tapers off, and is highest at the initial hit. This is why teams use multiple nitrous kits that activate at different stages of the pass. Also, pushers such as NANO help to keep bottle pressure more constant during the pass. Multiple kits and helpers are used to keep the car accelerating while the boosted cars have no problem with this, as the turbo just keeps spinning higher and higher RPMs forcing more atmospheric air into the engine, thus creating an exponential power curve. Nitrous cars also use lower lobe separation on camshafts which helps generate more power at higher RPM while boosted cars have no problem making top end power for the reasons stated above. Boosted cars keep accelerating constantly while a nitrous cars' acceleration seems to die off towards the end of their run rather than staying constant/increasing in comparison to a boosted car.


That's my .02
Let me know if you agree/disagree, and if this helps or was a waste of time

SMKN TA 95

iTrader: (46)

Me too....... how does 424 cfm on the intake sound


I think people need to learn how to use progressives alot more these days. I use the progressive to control the car getting down the track and it works flawlessly ALL the time. If the track can take the hit, bring the power in faster and harder. If the track is a little weak, ramp in slow or change the start % and ramp rate time. If your classes allow a progressive unit, use the damn thing. Throw away your digisets and move up to the current stuff. Digisets have their place, but if you can run a progressive its highly recomended to use that potential.

One thing to remember though with a progressive, have spare solenoids with you at the track and make them easy to change.

Last time I was at the track, we were changing the progressive every pass to get the BEST pass possible...... I mean it only takes literally 2 minutes to change the program in it if you already have your laptop turned on.

I again will be using the progressive to its potential next season with my new setup. New motor, new trans, new nitrous system......... Should be a fun but expensive year.

allmotor

Datalog your acceleration throughout the pass and analyze it. Unless youre constantly ramping up the nitrous over the entire pass (which would take multiple kits) then your rate of acceleration will not be the same compared to a turbo car

SMKN TA 95

iTrader: (46)

If we wanted the same rate of acceleration of a turbo car, we would have one. We've got nitrous, and that is what we choose to use right now and we will have to deal with the "spikes" per say.

I decided to hold off on the FI switch over for another year. When I do the switch, it will be to a crank driven F2R or an F3R blower. Turbos can be conisistant, but they are normally about as inconsistant as as woman on PMS.

I am not progressing the whole way down the track, but for the larger kits or multiple kits it does help.

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

I don't think head flow has anything to do with the turbo cars going quicker. That's a common misconception. If you look at all of the really quick turbo cars they are all running the baddest heads out there. Tom Kempf runs ET canted valve and both the Ohio Boys run All Pro LSw heads. Both of those are 400+ cfm heads out of the box.

The simple disadvantage is power. JL ws-6 talked about it. The highest NA powered LSx car I've seen made a little north of 800rwhp through a TH400. That was a while ago and with the new stuff coming out I'm sure we'll see more. The thing is that was specifically setup to run on motor. Pulling timing, colder plugs, etc... is going to pull that down. The most I've seen people spray on an LS engine is around 500 on a 6 bolt setup. Next tried to do that on a 4 bolt setup and lifted his heads / caused other damage.

Guess Who is talking about hitting his with a two stage 700 shot soon. He said it makes around 600 on motor. That still doesn't come close to the 2000+ the turbo guys are putting down. If you want to talk stock suspension drag radial power and traction are the big things. Robin L went 7.70 on one kit, but it was also in a back halfed 4 link car.

The quickest car out there now is Tuff at 8.28 @ 150. I'm sure he'll eventually be able to squeek out a 7.9x. The thing is that's almost a second behind what the turbo guys are pushing. They're going over 200 now and are sure to hit 6.9x soon.

00cls1camaross

iTrader: (10)

torque spike

I think we need to push progressive controllers to lessen the torque spike

Nimitz87

iTrader: (17)

I think one of he big reasons is this.

how many LSX cars are racing in classes where they only allow 1 kit?

such as this.

1. Single Stage/Plate system only with a maximum of one nitrous, one fuel, and one purge solenoid. Each solenoid is permitted a single orifice. Plate systems limited to 1 nitrous spray bar and one fuel spray bar, purge must exit engine compartment. Plate must not be permanent part of the intake or use fogger nozzles.
2. Progressive systems permitted and are allowed one additional solenoid for progressive operation only, must be inline. EFI systems are required to use a single nitrous nozzle which injects nitrous oxide into the engine prior to the throttle blade.
3. Fogger Systems or (2) Stage NOS Prohibited. These systems must be removed or disconnected/capped prior to and during the race. Failure to do so will result in DQ.

these classes are dominated by BBC's with a plate even with the extra weight they just out gun the SBC guys, and especially anyone trying in the LSX platform IMO. like others said making 600 on motor and spraying the rest is a tough goal.

Chad