Killing the motor after a N2o pass...
12-19-2009, 12:28 AM
#1
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Killing the motor after a N2o pass... I am trying to learn about reading plugs for tuning for N2o. I understand that in order to get a good read, the engine must be killed as you cross the line.
As a transmission builder, I have some serious concerns with this practice.
I understand that professional sponsored teams do this, BUT, this practice causes serious damage to internal transmission parts due to a lack of lubrication. And these teams replace/rebuild their trannies once a week. Some even run an extra pump to circulate transmission fluid when the engine is cut off.
When the engine is killed and the vehicle is still moving at speed, you have just stopped effectively lubricating the transmission. No different than running your engine without oil. It does not matter if you have neutralized the transmission or not, the output shaft and rear planets are still turning without lubrication.
So with all that being said, how much of a read on the plugs is lost if the car is allowed to idle down and to the pits?
Rick
As a transmission builder, I have some serious concerns with this practice.
I understand that professional sponsored teams do this, BUT, this practice causes serious damage to internal transmission parts due to a lack of lubrication. And these teams replace/rebuild their trannies once a week. Some even run an extra pump to circulate transmission fluid when the engine is cut off.
When the engine is killed and the vehicle is still moving at speed, you have just stopped effectively lubricating the transmission. No different than running your engine without oil. It does not matter if you have neutralized the transmission or not, the output shaft and rear planets are still turning without lubrication.
So with all that being said, how much of a read on the plugs is lost if the car is allowed to idle down and to the pits?
Rick
12-19-2009, 09:41 AM
#3
Not sure what to say on that one, I generally, when trying to get a good read on plugs click the key off, and get the car stopped and off the track as soon as possible. Been doing it for 2 years, and never had a problem with the tranny at all.. I can see your point, but I don't know. I change the tranny fluid about every 20 to 30 passes and have never seen anything telling me it's hurting stuff either.
I have also, left the car running until I can get it onto the return road then kill it. The plugs are still readable, but they aren't as clean as they would be if you click the key off. Initially, I'd be shutting the car off to get a good read. I always pull a plug after my first pass even if I'm not changing anything to make sure everything is working as it should be, just to be safe. I generally don't kill it in this case, I just get the car onto the return road, pull 4 plugs (2 from eadh side) replace them, get back to the pits and look them over with a 10x eyeloop, to make sure nothing funny's going on.
When I'm playing with the tuneup at all, then I'll click the key off so I have the clean plugs to read. If you're constantly changin your tuneup trying to push it, then you're gonna be clicking it off every pass, at that point I don't know what to tell ya. I think ATI makes a glide that has an electric pump on it, I don't know if it's set up to run while the car's running but maybe that's something you can look into if you're worried about it. Just clikc the key off and flip the switch on the pump at the end of a run.
I don't know anyone that's ever had an issue becasue of turning the car off at the end of a run, fwiw.
I have also, left the car running until I can get it onto the return road then kill it. The plugs are still readable, but they aren't as clean as they would be if you click the key off. Initially, I'd be shutting the car off to get a good read. I always pull a plug after my first pass even if I'm not changing anything to make sure everything is working as it should be, just to be safe. I generally don't kill it in this case, I just get the car onto the return road, pull 4 plugs (2 from eadh side) replace them, get back to the pits and look them over with a 10x eyeloop, to make sure nothing funny's going on.
When I'm playing with the tuneup at all, then I'll click the key off so I have the clean plugs to read. If you're constantly changin your tuneup trying to push it, then you're gonna be clicking it off every pass, at that point I don't know what to tell ya. I think ATI makes a glide that has an electric pump on it, I don't know if it's set up to run while the car's running but maybe that's something you can look into if you're worried about it. Just clikc the key off and flip the switch on the pump at the end of a run.
I don't know anyone that's ever had an issue becasue of turning the car off at the end of a run, fwiw.
12-19-2009, 10:40 AM
#4
Sounds like your concern is mainly for the fact that you are a tranny builder. Just like you can run a motor for a wile without oil. Heat is what causes most of the problems with trans, and motors without oil. I would think the damage is un-measurable at most.
Often when you specialize in something you are so aware of all the problems people often are more concerned about those aspects. I do tires so I drive around all day looking at everyones tires. You think of what they are doing to there tranny.
Good luck but I would say with so many people doing this without problems you should be just fine.
Often when you specialize in something you are so aware of all the problems people often are more concerned about those aspects. I do tires so I drive around all day looking at everyones tires. You think of what they are doing to there tranny.
Good luck but I would say with so many people doing this without problems you should be just fine.
12-19-2009, 10:51 AM
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My other concern is a safety one. Are you guys neutralizing the transmission after you click off? If so, unless you have a unit specifically built to do this, the direct drum could explode.
This is for those of us that are full manual/transbraked trannies, not stock units.
This is for those of us that are full manual/transbraked trannies, not stock units.
12-19-2009, 11:13 AM
#6
Well I see alot of the big nitrous guys at my local track that have a four-wheeler and tow their car back to the pits from the finish line and thats no better on the trans than clicking off, but those guys I know personally and they have no tranny issues that I am aware of.
Just like custom2500 said when you specialize in something you tend to be more particular with that something. I worked as a technician at a dealer and I tend to look at how horrible some people maintain their cars. Such as my cars never make it 30 miles past an oil change. I had cars that came in the shop that the oil needed to be changed and they were 9000 miles over and when I asked the customer why did they go so long, I would get the answer " Oh I just forgot, but it will be ok,right?
When the motor blows up they seem to remember real quick though.
Just like custom2500 said when you specialize in something you tend to be more particular with that something. I worked as a technician at a dealer and I tend to look at how horrible some people maintain their cars. Such as my cars never make it 30 miles past an oil change. I had cars that came in the shop that the oil needed to be changed and they were 9000 miles over and when I asked the customer why did they go so long, I would get the answer " Oh I just forgot, but it will be ok,right?
When the motor blows up they seem to remember real quick though.
12-19-2009, 11:32 AM
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We shut our car down at the lights every time it has been in for 4 years and never had a problem with this method. Our car runs 4 stages of nitrous and will run 4.15 in the 1/8 with a .990 60 foot with a Rossler 210 trans. We service the fluids in it twice a season. Imo for the amount of time it takes to get the car stopped their is little to no wear.
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12-19-2009, 12:26 PM
#8
I don't put the car in neutral no, I let it coast down in 3rd. I know moving it to neutral will definietly not be a good deal, spinning the drum up like it will.
I plan to start towing back, as soon as I can find a small 250 sized atv to take to the track, for that purpose.
fwiw I am running a hughes th400 with a rmvb
I plan to start towing back, as soon as I can find a small 250 sized atv to take to the track, for that purpose.
fwiw I am running a hughes th400 with a rmvb
12-20-2009, 06:48 AM
#14
I've tried, and as stated it's useless. Only time I get a good GOOD read, is if I click the key, and coast down to the end, and coast onto the return road, thenI can get a good solid read.
I've gotten used to what a plug looks like if I leave the car running on decel and under power so I canpull it off on the return road, lvd's return road there's nowhere to pull off iwthout blocking it at the very end, so there I have to leave the car under power for about 10 seconds while I get it up to the wider part of the return road, I've been able to make tuneup changes, and see the changes by doing this, it's far from ideal, but this year I'll have the atv by the time I get back out so it won't be an issue anymore... just going to tow it back from now on.
I've gotten used to what a plug looks like if I leave the car running on decel and under power so I canpull it off on the return road, lvd's return road there's nowhere to pull off iwthout blocking it at the very end, so there I have to leave the car under power for about 10 seconds while I get it up to the wider part of the return road, I've been able to make tuneup changes, and see the changes by doing this, it's far from ideal, but this year I'll have the atv by the time I get back out so it won't be an issue anymore... just going to tow it back from now on.