FAQ: How much can you spray your stock shortblock,+ some helpful nitrous info
08-05-2010, 08:10 PM
#1
FAQ: How much can you spray your stock shortblock,+ some helpful nitrous info ---------- Edit by J-Rod 4-20-15 ------------
This thread was deleted because:
People want to read this thread
Ignore its content
Complain to JL ws-6 because they did x,y, and z different and killed their motor.
I think JL ws-6 got tired of countless PM's about "people then telling him they were gonna do something else anyway, and then pm him back saying I think I hurt #7 or whatever" He got tired of it and it was deleted. I am bringing it back with one caveat if you are going to ignore the info in here, then don't complain to JL ws-6 in Pm's etc.... when you blow your car up....
This sticky is to help you SAFELY spray a car with a stock shortblock. Can you do something else, yes. Will it be safe maybe or maybe not. If you want to try unorthodox combos, then be prepared to replace parts, and not gripe about it. If you want to stay safe, read on....
--------------- End Edit ------------------------
This thread has been made to help educate people that are new to using nitrous, and is designed to help you SAFELY get a kit on your car, and get it up and running.
Info on power levels, plug types for what level, how much your stock shortblock can take, and additional useful nitrous info is here, for those that are putting their first kit on a car, are a little unsure as to what to expect, what the car can take without any problems, etc.
If you're an experienced nitrous user, this isn't for you. If you have a car that you want to put a kit on, are contemplating whether nitrous is a good fit for you, that type of thing, this is exactly what you want to read FIRST!
This thread was deleted because:
People want to read this thread
Ignore its content
Complain to JL ws-6 because they did x,y, and z different and killed their motor.
I think JL ws-6 got tired of countless PM's about "people then telling him they were gonna do something else anyway, and then pm him back saying I think I hurt #7 or whatever" He got tired of it and it was deleted. I am bringing it back with one caveat if you are going to ignore the info in here, then don't complain to JL ws-6 in Pm's etc.... when you blow your car up....
This sticky is to help you SAFELY spray a car with a stock shortblock. Can you do something else, yes. Will it be safe maybe or maybe not. If you want to try unorthodox combos, then be prepared to replace parts, and not gripe about it. If you want to stay safe, read on....
--------------- End Edit ------------------------
This thread has been made to help educate people that are new to using nitrous, and is designed to help you SAFELY get a kit on your car, and get it up and running.
Info on power levels, plug types for what level, how much your stock shortblock can take, and additional useful nitrous info is here, for those that are putting their first kit on a car, are a little unsure as to what to expect, what the car can take without any problems, etc.
If you're an experienced nitrous user, this isn't for you. If you have a car that you want to put a kit on, are contemplating whether nitrous is a good fit for you, that type of thing, this is exactly what you want to read FIRST!
Last edited by J-Rod; 04-20-2015 at 09:56 AM.
08-05-2010, 08:21 PM
#2
First, how much can you spray your stock shortblock:
This is a commonly asked question, and there's a few different answers. All of the reccomendations I will make here, are SAFE. Sure, you'll read about a guy that made 7xx HP on a stock shortblock, but I'm not going to make reccomendations based on the luck of one individual.
Stock LS1 shortblock:
The max I would safely reccommend, on a stock ls1 shortblock is in the 500 to 525 rwhp range. This, can be achieved by spraying a stock motor, cam only motor, heads and cam motor, anyway you get there, this would be a safe power level. ONce you start getting above this power level, the reliability is going to start falling, more you add, more it falls. This power level, is going to require a GOOD tune, and CHECKING PLUGS ON A VERY REGULAR BASIS. Adding race fuel into the equation will certainly make it safer, as it will help aoid the detonation that is the #1 stock piston killer.
LS2, 6 litre lq9, ls3 shortblocks:
Roughly the same power level. The increased cubic inch will support a little more, 525 to the 550 hp range, but again this is still pushing the envelope pretty good. Same deal with this version of the gen 3 engine, TUNE is critical, and MUST be kept up on. Ls3, with the power the heads these came with, it's pretty easy to get to the 550 hp range with these, they haven't been around as long as the other versions with added bore, but the piston design isn't much different, and likly will not take much more in the power department.
LS7: There's been reports of these in the 580 to 600 rwhp range. Life expectancey at that level most likly isn't that high with the stock pistons, but people do push them to these levels. The # of these running out there is so much smaller, that there's less supporting data to show what they will take and for how long.... I don't think much more then 150 to 200 hp over the factory 440ish rwhp they make stock is going to stay together for a realistic amount of time. This motor, should probably be limited to teh high 5xx range of HP, unless you have the $ to put pistons into the motor.
This is a commonly asked question, and there's a few different answers. All of the reccomendations I will make here, are SAFE. Sure, you'll read about a guy that made 7xx HP on a stock shortblock, but I'm not going to make reccomendations based on the luck of one individual.
Stock LS1 shortblock:
The max I would safely reccommend, on a stock ls1 shortblock is in the 500 to 525 rwhp range. This, can be achieved by spraying a stock motor, cam only motor, heads and cam motor, anyway you get there, this would be a safe power level. ONce you start getting above this power level, the reliability is going to start falling, more you add, more it falls. This power level, is going to require a GOOD tune, and CHECKING PLUGS ON A VERY REGULAR BASIS. Adding race fuel into the equation will certainly make it safer, as it will help aoid the detonation that is the #1 stock piston killer.
LS2, 6 litre lq9, ls3 shortblocks:
Roughly the same power level. The increased cubic inch will support a little more, 525 to the 550 hp range, but again this is still pushing the envelope pretty good. Same deal with this version of the gen 3 engine, TUNE is critical, and MUST be kept up on. Ls3, with the power the heads these came with, it's pretty easy to get to the 550 hp range with these, they haven't been around as long as the other versions with added bore, but the piston design isn't much different, and likly will not take much more in the power department.
LS7: There's been reports of these in the 580 to 600 rwhp range. Life expectancey at that level most likly isn't that high with the stock pistons, but people do push them to these levels. The # of these running out there is so much smaller, that there's less supporting data to show what they will take and for how long.... I don't think much more then 150 to 200 hp over the factory 440ish rwhp they make stock is going to stay together for a realistic amount of time. This motor, should probably be limited to teh high 5xx range of HP, unless you have the $ to put pistons into the motor.
08-05-2010, 08:40 PM
#3
Spraying your stock shortblock:
So you want to put nitrous on your ls1. Great, it's a good way to add some power, get a real good gain at the track, smoke that pesky cobra mustang, or really beat the pants off an import. But wait, slapping that kit on the stock car and going out to the friday night spot is NOT THE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT!!! Contrary to what Paul Walker would have you believing, you can't just go buy 2 of the big ones, and put them in the car for tonight
: 
Here's what you have to consider:
What type of kit? Wet, dry, plate, single nozzle, fogger, halo? What size bottle, where to mount it, what rpm to spray it, what power level, what brand, standalone or feed off the rail, how to heat the bottle, do I need a purge, UGH! Lots of questions to ask, and there's an answer to all.
If, you are the typical car guy, that wants a simple 100 to 125 hp of power added say, and you can REALISTICIALLY SAY YOU WILL NOT NEED, OR ADD MORE THEN 150, then a single nozzle, plate, halo or the like type of system is perfect for you. It's simple, runs with 1 or 2, or 3 solenoids, depending on a wet or dry, and wether you put a purge into the system or not.
wet vs dry:
I'll say it, NEITHER IS ANY BETTER AT THIS POWER LEVEL. It's a personal preferance, period. Nothing more. If you go with a wet system, your fuel is added via a fuel jet, it's safe, and simple. Yes, 2 solenoids to maintain (another post) but it works. Now, wether you do a plate or single nozzle, is not a deal breaker. You can run either, nozzle placement, is a little more touchly then the plate, plate makes it a simple install, no worries about wether the nozzle is facing the right direction, etc. If you take the nozzle route, poistion it so the nozzle is spraying into the center of the Tb. Plate, it doesn't matter, so take your pick. All tuning must be verified by PLUG READING!!!
Dry, it's also simple, halo, plate, or single nozzle. Plate and nozzle same deal as wet, halo, no worries at all. Dry will require the fuel to be added via the injection system. Not a problem. Harris has a neat device that allows this to work easily and is pretty much plug and play, and it works fine. You can also tune via hp tuners, I've seen people also add a boost-a-pump, and add pressure this way when the nitrous system is armed, somewhat of a shadetree method, but it can work as well... again, all tuning must be verified by PLUG READING!!!
Purge: What is it, why and do I need it? Well, if you want consistant performance, get one. What it does, is clears the feed line from any trapped air once the bottle's opened, pretty straitforward. Place as close to the main solenoid as possible to clear as much of the line/path as possible, operate the purge off a pushbutton, pretty simple. I wouldn't install a kit without one, but plenty have, and they still work. Just creates a slight delay in the time the kit makes the initial hit. Again, on a street car that you're just messing with, this may not make a difference. Track car, it's gonna be noticable in the times, at least eventually.
Bottle size: I wouldn't go any smaller then a 10 lb, as it's not gonna last long. 10 lb bottle is commmon as well as the 15, there's 12 lb'ers out there too, but they're usually the carbon ones, and they're pricy, so most people don't use them, for that reason.
10 or 15, to each his own. RACER TIP: Fill the bottle to 9 lbs with a 10 lber, and 13 with a 15 lb'er. This way when the bottle is heated the liquid has room to expand, and this helps prevent a high head pressure when heating the bottle. This, along with "stirring" the bottle while heating, help get consistant heat in the bottle and will help make your car much more consistant, and help you keep consistant with your bottle pressure!
Bottle pressure: You need a way to heat the bottle. Nitrous generally runs beat around the 900 to 975 psi range. The liquid, turns to a gas at temps that create over 1100 psi of pressure, and this, is not what you're looking to have happen, you want the nitrous to stay liquid, until leaving the nozzle. This, helps get the most from your system. Keeping the bottle in the 900 to 075 range also helps decrease the amount of pressure drop seen during a run, and will, in teh long run once your tuneup is right, get the most from yoru system. It also decreases excess pressure on the solenoids, which can be one reason they can fail.
Standalone fuel system: This, is a personal preferance at the >150 hp level. It's not a bad way to go, allows the use of race fuel when running nitrous, so the timing can be kept higher for n/a performance, etc. It does add a cost, but in the long run, can be a useful item. I reccommend them, if the user can afford it, if not, at this power level, it's not needed.
Spraying @ X rpm: It's safe to spray over 3000, and have it off 200 rpm before the rev limiter. Period. Can you spray a 100 shot earlier, sure. Can it work, yes. have people done it, yes, and have people blown up intakes doing it, YES. You want to risk it you can try earlier, but the airflow rate, cam overlap, and intake velocity are all a part of this risk, each setup will vary the level. Keep it over 3000, and you should be fine. (unless you're trying to hit a 500 shot, in this case, it may not be, but for the sake of the conversation, anyone doing this, probably isn't reading it either)
So you want to put nitrous on your ls1. Great, it's a good way to add some power, get a real good gain at the track, smoke that pesky cobra mustang, or really beat the pants off an import. But wait, slapping that kit on the stock car and going out to the friday night spot is NOT THE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT!!! Contrary to what Paul Walker would have you believing, you can't just go buy 2 of the big ones, and put them in the car for tonight
: Here's what you have to consider:
What type of kit? Wet, dry, plate, single nozzle, fogger, halo? What size bottle, where to mount it, what rpm to spray it, what power level, what brand, standalone or feed off the rail, how to heat the bottle, do I need a purge, UGH! Lots of questions to ask, and there's an answer to all.
If, you are the typical car guy, that wants a simple 100 to 125 hp of power added say, and you can REALISTICIALLY SAY YOU WILL NOT NEED, OR ADD MORE THEN 150, then a single nozzle, plate, halo or the like type of system is perfect for you. It's simple, runs with 1 or 2, or 3 solenoids, depending on a wet or dry, and wether you put a purge into the system or not.
wet vs dry:
I'll say it, NEITHER IS ANY BETTER AT THIS POWER LEVEL. It's a personal preferance, period. Nothing more. If you go with a wet system, your fuel is added via a fuel jet, it's safe, and simple. Yes, 2 solenoids to maintain (another post) but it works. Now, wether you do a plate or single nozzle, is not a deal breaker. You can run either, nozzle placement, is a little more touchly then the plate, plate makes it a simple install, no worries about wether the nozzle is facing the right direction, etc. If you take the nozzle route, poistion it so the nozzle is spraying into the center of the Tb. Plate, it doesn't matter, so take your pick. All tuning must be verified by PLUG READING!!!
Dry, it's also simple, halo, plate, or single nozzle. Plate and nozzle same deal as wet, halo, no worries at all. Dry will require the fuel to be added via the injection system. Not a problem. Harris has a neat device that allows this to work easily and is pretty much plug and play, and it works fine. You can also tune via hp tuners, I've seen people also add a boost-a-pump, and add pressure this way when the nitrous system is armed, somewhat of a shadetree method, but it can work as well... again, all tuning must be verified by PLUG READING!!!
Purge: What is it, why and do I need it? Well, if you want consistant performance, get one. What it does, is clears the feed line from any trapped air once the bottle's opened, pretty straitforward. Place as close to the main solenoid as possible to clear as much of the line/path as possible, operate the purge off a pushbutton, pretty simple. I wouldn't install a kit without one, but plenty have, and they still work. Just creates a slight delay in the time the kit makes the initial hit. Again, on a street car that you're just messing with, this may not make a difference. Track car, it's gonna be noticable in the times, at least eventually.
Bottle size: I wouldn't go any smaller then a 10 lb, as it's not gonna last long. 10 lb bottle is commmon as well as the 15, there's 12 lb'ers out there too, but they're usually the carbon ones, and they're pricy, so most people don't use them, for that reason.
10 or 15, to each his own. RACER TIP: Fill the bottle to 9 lbs with a 10 lber, and 13 with a 15 lb'er. This way when the bottle is heated the liquid has room to expand, and this helps prevent a high head pressure when heating the bottle. This, along with "stirring" the bottle while heating, help get consistant heat in the bottle and will help make your car much more consistant, and help you keep consistant with your bottle pressure!
Bottle pressure: You need a way to heat the bottle. Nitrous generally runs beat around the 900 to 975 psi range. The liquid, turns to a gas at temps that create over 1100 psi of pressure, and this, is not what you're looking to have happen, you want the nitrous to stay liquid, until leaving the nozzle. This, helps get the most from your system. Keeping the bottle in the 900 to 075 range also helps decrease the amount of pressure drop seen during a run, and will, in teh long run once your tuneup is right, get the most from yoru system. It also decreases excess pressure on the solenoids, which can be one reason they can fail.
Standalone fuel system: This, is a personal preferance at the >150 hp level. It's not a bad way to go, allows the use of race fuel when running nitrous, so the timing can be kept higher for n/a performance, etc. It does add a cost, but in the long run, can be a useful item. I reccommend them, if the user can afford it, if not, at this power level, it's not needed.
Spraying @ X rpm: It's safe to spray over 3000, and have it off 200 rpm before the rev limiter. Period. Can you spray a 100 shot earlier, sure. Can it work, yes. have people done it, yes, and have people blown up intakes doing it, YES. You want to risk it you can try earlier, but the airflow rate, cam overlap, and intake velocity are all a part of this risk, each setup will vary the level. Keep it over 3000, and you should be fine. (unless you're trying to hit a 500 shot, in this case, it may not be, but for the sake of the conversation, anyone doing this, probably isn't reading it either)
Last edited by JL ws-6; 08-05-2010 at 09:02 PM. Reason: fixing typo's, as I see them
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riddler (02-16-2021)
08-05-2010, 08:58 PM
#4
Directport/fogger systems
o.k., so you want to go FAST, and spray the BIG HIT. These are the way to go, dry or wet, doesn't matter. If you want to run a fogger that's a dry system, the best route to take, is to run the aftermarket ecm, that can control it, and handle the BIG fuel injectors. Yes, a seperate computer, like the interface can deal with this, and you can get high imp. injectors now that will supply enough fuel. Wet systems, these have the fuel supplied thru a second set of solenoids, jets and a dual inlet nozzle. There's several ways to go about tuning these. You can run high pressure, although this does pose the threat of clogged fuel jets, as the jet size will be very small. Most racers, find that a low pressure fuel supply, meaning a standalone fuel cell, low pressure pump and sepetare regulator works best. A fuel flow ga. is a good tool to adjust fuel pressure with, to get your tuneup right
Both these types of systems, will support more power then an engine will take, well within reason.... TUNING IS CRITICAL AT THESE LEVELS, and I wouldn't reccommend it to someone to start off. PLUG READING, EVERY HOLE EVERY RUN. And the motor, needs GOOD parts to take the abuse, best built by someone with nitrous and ls engine experience. They most likly also can help you with the tuning as well.
Bottle heater:
Yes, you need one. AND NOT A TORCH PLEASE!!! Electric heater, on say an average 70 degree night will get your bottle up to temp in 15 min or so, give or take. Not a problem, they work fine, just don't have a little junky battery in the car, if you have a PC680 or the like, don't even try it, the battery will be dead in 10 minutes tops.
The hot water bath method: Good for racers, effective, and safe. My #1 pick, for a racer with an enclosed trailer with 120V power. Electric heaters can be run off a seperate battery in your trailer, one you carry in the truck when towing the car to the track, lots of options here. Just get one that's for a pressure shutoff/on if you want to use the electric method, and NEVER LEAVE IT UNATTENDED. More then one bottle has exploded from someone leaving it on.
Blow down tube: I didn't make mention of this in the original post, but it's needed, period. Don't skimp on this, it's safety. -8AN line and a bulkhead fitting makes a nice blowdown if you want to make one yourself, and it can be routed anywhere in the car, as long as it exit's the car. Pretty much every company has a blowdown of some sort, that you can buy.
Plug heat range:
Stock in the ls1 is a tr55 equivalant heat. This CAN AND SHOULD NEVER BE SPRAYED ON PERIOD! If you wan to put a 100 shot on your stock car, BR6EF. NO PLATNIUM, none of those funky plugs, PERIOD.
Making 450 to 500 hp? Time to go to the #7 heat range. They will idle fine, etc, just make sure your idle, and part throttle tune aren't overly rich and the car will never know.
Trying to make that 550 hp mark on a stock short block? I'd put a #8 in there, yes it's overkill most likly, and a #7 will be fine.... but for the first couple initial test hits, it's not a bad idea. That step colder plug, will drop the combustion temps by about 100 degrees, and could save your motor!
Got a fogger, gonna go for the gusto? #9, 10 and 11 are all available, and should be used if you're going 250+, chances are you're on a pretty built motor that needs a #7 n/a anyway as well at this point. Well... most anyway.
These are not the end all bits of nitrous info, and I will add more as I can, but it's a good start to educating the new guy that wants to dabble with nitrous. It's not an end all be all of what you can do power wise, tune wise, etc.... but it will get you up and running, in a somewhat safe manner!
o.k., so you want to go FAST, and spray the BIG HIT. These are the way to go, dry or wet, doesn't matter. If you want to run a fogger that's a dry system, the best route to take, is to run the aftermarket ecm, that can control it, and handle the BIG fuel injectors. Yes, a seperate computer, like the interface can deal with this, and you can get high imp. injectors now that will supply enough fuel. Wet systems, these have the fuel supplied thru a second set of solenoids, jets and a dual inlet nozzle. There's several ways to go about tuning these. You can run high pressure, although this does pose the threat of clogged fuel jets, as the jet size will be very small. Most racers, find that a low pressure fuel supply, meaning a standalone fuel cell, low pressure pump and sepetare regulator works best. A fuel flow ga. is a good tool to adjust fuel pressure with, to get your tuneup right
Both these types of systems, will support more power then an engine will take, well within reason.... TUNING IS CRITICAL AT THESE LEVELS, and I wouldn't reccommend it to someone to start off. PLUG READING, EVERY HOLE EVERY RUN. And the motor, needs GOOD parts to take the abuse, best built by someone with nitrous and ls engine experience. They most likly also can help you with the tuning as well.
Bottle heater:
Yes, you need one. AND NOT A TORCH PLEASE!!! Electric heater, on say an average 70 degree night will get your bottle up to temp in 15 min or so, give or take. Not a problem, they work fine, just don't have a little junky battery in the car, if you have a PC680 or the like, don't even try it, the battery will be dead in 10 minutes tops.
The hot water bath method: Good for racers, effective, and safe. My #1 pick, for a racer with an enclosed trailer with 120V power. Electric heaters can be run off a seperate battery in your trailer, one you carry in the truck when towing the car to the track, lots of options here. Just get one that's for a pressure shutoff/on if you want to use the electric method, and NEVER LEAVE IT UNATTENDED. More then one bottle has exploded from someone leaving it on.
Blow down tube: I didn't make mention of this in the original post, but it's needed, period. Don't skimp on this, it's safety. -8AN line and a bulkhead fitting makes a nice blowdown if you want to make one yourself, and it can be routed anywhere in the car, as long as it exit's the car. Pretty much every company has a blowdown of some sort, that you can buy.
Plug heat range:
Stock in the ls1 is a tr55 equivalant heat. This CAN AND SHOULD NEVER BE SPRAYED ON PERIOD! If you wan to put a 100 shot on your stock car, BR6EF. NO PLATNIUM, none of those funky plugs, PERIOD.
Making 450 to 500 hp? Time to go to the #7 heat range. They will idle fine, etc, just make sure your idle, and part throttle tune aren't overly rich and the car will never know.
Trying to make that 550 hp mark on a stock short block? I'd put a #8 in there, yes it's overkill most likly, and a #7 will be fine.... but for the first couple initial test hits, it's not a bad idea. That step colder plug, will drop the combustion temps by about 100 degrees, and could save your motor!
Got a fogger, gonna go for the gusto? #9, 10 and 11 are all available, and should be used if you're going 250+, chances are you're on a pretty built motor that needs a #7 n/a anyway as well at this point. Well... most anyway.
These are not the end all bits of nitrous info, and I will add more as I can, but it's a good start to educating the new guy that wants to dabble with nitrous. It's not an end all be all of what you can do power wise, tune wise, etc.... but it will get you up and running, in a somewhat safe manner!
Last edited by shortdog; 07-03-2015 at 08:04 PM.
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garygnu (11-14-2019)
