CHarris

iTrader: (5)

Here's my experience...

https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...=292411&page=2

sardog46

Got to love htem.

CHarris

iTrader: (5)

One thing is for sure... you definitely CANNOT tune by the stock O2's. We used to get away with it fine back in the good ole L98 and LT1 days... but the LSx engines don't tune like that. Cool thing is that I can use this for tuning anything even carbed cars
HP Tuners is the best $500 I ever spent... this is a close second!

Todd2001SS

I agree. I have the LM1, and it is awesome. The mv from the o2s mean nothing. I also was told that logging with the LM1 or yours is more accurate than the dyno, a dyno lags in its readings.

Also you want the readings before the cats, not after. Tail pipe sniffer is not the best.

Don't forget to calibrate you sensor often.

CHarris

iTrader: (5)

Testing by some very reliable sources has shown that before or after the cat shows very little difference. Given this information... using existing rear O2 sensor bungs is very attractive, especially if one has a full stainless exhaust system that no one will weld a bung on.

Todd2001SS

I only know what I read (below), just trying to help.
----------------------------------------------------
On CATALYTIC CONVERTER equipped vehicles:

Bung: Install the oxygen sensor’s bung upstream from the catalytic converter
(a bung and plug is included in the LM-1 kit). Any decent muffler or
exhaust shop can do this for you. The wide-band oxygen sensor is then
installed into the bung to take a reading. (Insert the plug into the bung
when not in use). The bung must be installed in the exhaust pipe at
the side or on top, NOT on the bottom of the exhaust pipe. Best
position is between 10:00 and 2:00 position.
……or………
Exhaust Clamp: You may use the optional Exhaust Clamp to mount the O2 sensor to the
car’s tail pipe when taking readings from cars with catalytic converters
(see below). However, it is recommended instead to use the bung (as described above) to give you the most accurate reading. Measuring
after the cat will result in leaner-than-reality readings, depending on the
efficiency of the cat. Some operators of chassis dynos use this method
and roughly “correct” the reading.

Do NOT install the Bung below the 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock position.
Condensation can form in the exhaust pipe and permanently damage the sensor.
6 o’clock is the absolute worst position to mount the sensor.
-------------------------------------------------------
The shop I took mine to welded my bung into my stainless headers in the collector before the cats. They had longer bungs that were easier to weld also they welded them in place with the plug in it to keep it from becomming out of shape from the heat.

Todd

TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

I can't wait to get mine

93TAWicked1

iTrader: (28)

Sweet I'm going to have access to Chris's and we got the HP tuner with the interface to it. So I'll be asking MORE stupid questions soon!!!

sardog46

I had the guy who just did my exhaust put in twi new bungs, just behind the factory ones, for tunning, other than that they are capped off. I need to buy the new interface for hp. but until then i just compare rpm and numbers.

CHarris

iTrader: (5)

Those are all very good guidelines, especially the ones related to position of the bung. However, in a truck chassis such as mine there are only about 2 places to possibly put them because either the factory front O2 sensor is in the way, the frame is in the way, the front driveshaft is in the way, or you have to completely drop the pipe to weld it, or you have to install the bung straight down.

With all this in mind and the knowledge that pre-cat and after-cat testing has been done by the fastest Turbo truck around (Parish) demonstrating very little to no difference in wideband readings pretty much tells me that it isn't all that critical. As such the rear O2 sensor position is a great place to use as temp or permanent install point because it is already there and it is indexed properly for moisture drainage away from the sensor. If the readings happen to be a 10th of an AFR point off it'll be just fine.

So... to anyone reading this- If you are surrounded by incompetent welding shops and cannot (or do not) want to weld your own O2 bung into the pipe the placement described above does work. It's also quite good for the tuner who can use the wideband without all the installation trouble/hassle.

dr.mike

This is true. The LM-1 responds MUCH faster than other WB controllers. To the point that AFR differences between individual cylinders become visible in the signal ( some people think it's noise ). Logging with the LM-1,you can actually watch the AFR curve of a carburettor's pump shot. Try that with another WB controller. I'm working on a kit to allow individual cylinder AFR tuning for Weber carbs ( try a carb-per-cylinder V12 Ferrari ).

This is because the LM-1 uses a completly different method to read the WB sensors. Almost all other controllers use the Bosch WB controller chip. Which seems to make allot of sense becuase they also use the Bosch sensor for which it is designed.

The Bosch chip is a standard PID controller. It uses a BIG low-pass filter to keep from oscillating. Because of that, it can take up to 3 or 4 seconds for it to settle on a value when the AFR changes. (That's why the traces look smooth). This is verified with callibrated lab gasses. This is all fine for OEM applications. They are really only accurate in steady state RPM/Load conditions. Same with my 5-gas analyzer.

The LM-1 does not use an analog PID circuit. Instead, it uses a digital PWM circuit. No filter is required. The duty cycle of the PWM signal is proportional to the AFR deviation from 14.7. This is the Innovate patent. The LM-1 responds as fast as the PWM signal runs. This is about 100Hz in the LM-1 and 200Hz in the new LC-1. More than fast enough to be accurate durring rapid RPM and AFR/load changes. The high speed signals are available on the LM-1 analog out pins.

The duty cycle of the PWM, at 14.7AFR, is ALWAYS 50%; no matter the temperature or exhaust flow. To re-calibrate the sensor, expose it to free air. Free air Oxygen content is always 20.9%. The LM-1 reads the duty cycle in free air, and knows the sersor's output between those two points. The duty cycle in free air changes as the sensor ages. This procedure corrects for it. All this has been verified with calibrated lab gases.

And the sensors do age; Especially when they are run rich. A brand new sensor will be accurate for about 4 hours, under these conditions. Beyond that, they drift. That's why you need to re-calibrate the sensors. After a couple hundred hours, the sensors kinda settle in. But by then, they are off by several points.

( Actually, RIGHT AT 14.7AFR they are still accurate. But as you move away from stochiometric, rich or lean, they get progressivly inaccurate. )

I hear allot of arguing about which WB is more accurate. Even people connecting several WBs to a car and comparing the outputs ( which one is right ). But the only real way to find out is with calibrated laboratory gases. If you walk into Klaus's office at Innovate, the 1st thing you will see are three 80CF welding tanks full of calibrated gasses from a laboratory supply company. YES, HE KEEPS THEM IN THE OFFICE. And they look like the leaning towers of Piza. Each one has a differnt AFR value. By using/switching them, you can test the accuracy and response time of WB controllers and sensors. For obvious reasons, I won't list the results from competitor's WB systems.

I chose the LM-1.

Todd2001SS

dr.mike, looks like a thread caught your interest! That is a lot of info.

dr.mike

Did I type all that ??

Yeah. Just trying to clear up some of the "voodoo engineering" stuff I hear going around about wideband systems. There are allot of claims out there. Few survive testing in contolled conditions. I feel like the Amazing Randi sometimes

I am not completely unbiased here. I do some work for Innovate. Which is how I know about the teetering welding tanks of compressed exhaust gasses next to Klaus's ( designer of the LM-1 ) desk.

Until recently, I couldn't give out information like the above. But now that the patent has been granted, I can let people know how things work. I have read some silly things about the LM-1, etc. here.

WAHUSKER

iTrader: (4)

One more tidbit that I keep hearing about these widebands Cory, don't leave the sensor in the exhaust. You will foul it by running it plugged in all the time, and burn it up if you unplug it. And since they aint cheap, you should at least look into this.

Good info. I need to get one. How much was the one you bought?

TwoFast4Lv

iTrader: (8)

So basicly using a wide band is a wastse of time. If it takes 2-3 seconds to read and is only good in the first four hours then it is an over rated waste of time.

And i just bought one. think I will send the POS back!

Todd2001SS

The LM1 takes like 12 readings per second.

CHarris

iTrader: (5)

I'm only using mine as a temp installation for tuning purposes as I stated. I have no need for another guage in my truck. However, plenty of people are running the Wide Band Commander as a permanent install with no issues. One need only read the included instructions to know not to leave the sensor installed if it is not powered up. Also, the rear O2 sensor bung is not the tailpipe. It is right after the cat and about 2 1/2 feet in front of the muffler so it is about 6 feet from the tailpipe exit.

As far as the responsiveness of the unit I would call it more than adequate. Maybe not the fastest on the market but certainly more than good enough for use. The AFR display changes between PE and non PE modes was as quick as you could see it. It does not take 3-4 seconds or even 1 second. As quick as you can register the change in modes you see it on the sensor output.

It's a nice kit that works well with very easy installation. As I've used it, I'd recommend it as good option. Maybe the LM 1 is better. I don't know or care now. I'm quite happy with what I have.

dr.mike

Not exactly..... The LM-1 takes about 100 samples per second. But it only logs at 12 samples per second. The higher speed signals can be picked up via the analog out lines. You can pick them up wih a scope or a DMM or anythign else that can record a 0-100Hz 0-5v signal. You can actually set the rate via the config software. Unfortunatly, you can't change the logging/serial data rate. Maybe the new AuxBoxSD+ will do that. It logs directly to a removable SD card directly ( so no serial rate limit )

This is true. The sensors will foul if they are left in the exhaust without their heaters running.


The reading will start changing almost right away. But it almost always takes at least 2 seconds for it to settle on the correct value. It is a logarithmic function.

e.g.

If the AFR goes from 14.7 to 10.0 quickly, the meter will go to 12 fast, then 11, then 10.5 10.25, 10.1 etc. then settle on 10.0

What's important is that if there is a short lean spot in the curve while accelleratiing ( usually more a problem with carbs ), a slow responding meter will miss it. This happens allot with Weber carbs, when the float levels are set a little low.

WAHUSKER

iTrader: (4)

Geez, what's the world coming to....a guy with 5 posts tha tknows his ****!

Ryan K

iTrader: (11)

Hehehe, Yup, send it back Ellis! No Problems with mine its all just hype... Our product is better than everybody elses, blah blah blah . I guess we should sell all of our other brand Widebands so we can buy inovate, Not me.

Ryan