andrewzpsu

Here is a very good example of why you should not do mail order tunes when it comes to these cars, and especially the ones with serious modding like cam shafts.

This is a 2000 Trans Am that had a decently large camshaft put in it. The owner of the car sent out his PCM to get tuned for his modifications. He's been driving around, racing around, etc for quite some time. The customer's complaint was that the car ran better on the stock tune, than it did on the mail order tune so he wanted me to take a look at it. It had a distinct loss of power at 2500 rpms.

Now I really enjoy helping people out, making sure their cars are running right and pointing them in the right direction if they aren't. So instead of telling him to wait for the $250 Grand Opening Special, I wanted him to come in early.

The first run glitched slightly so I'm not exactly sure that the torque is right after the advanced filter. I thought it was more like 308 but 312 isn't too far off either lol.



YIKES! Very low power for a cammed LS1. But this isn't the scary part.

Now the reason why it was running this poorly was from too much timing and too little fuel. It literally maxed out my wideband setting interfacing with HPT which reads up to a 17.8 AFR. It started lean and went even worse.

Now think about this: The customer has been driving around with this horrible AFR for quite some time. He didn't know just how bad and unsafe this was. (For some reason it didn't pull any timing either - which surprised the hell out of me). It is also a pretty good testimonial that these engines can be beat to death and still keep on rocking.


So richening it up, lowering the timing yielded a gain of 66 rwhp. Better drivability. Actually starts and stays started. And most importantly is running SAFE!



To date this is the largest gain I've made out of a car from a single tune. Previous gain was 50 rwhp from another blind tune.



And just a reminder, sign ups start tonight for our grand opening dyno tune special!

$200 dyno tuned GTOs only
(my special for the foundation of my business)
for the whole week, June 7th - 13th!

$250 dyno tunes the second week for all 2WD LS engine vehicles.
Again, the whole week, June 14th - June 20th!

And still a great $300 price for a dyno tune on a regular basis.


Best hours of availability for you working folk.
M-F - 6 PM - 11 PM
S-S - 10 AM - 11 PM!

I'll be posting a new thread for the sign ups tonight.


We are located in West Chester, PA!
info@completestreetperformance.com

DynoDR

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't say "DONT USE A MAIL ORDER TUNE"... there are some very good and capable mail order tuners out there and if given the correct info and the vehicle is mechanically correct they can be a very good option for some people.

Of course you will see some extreme high gains if the tune is grossly off that far, as you will by correcting weak fuel pressure, ignition issues etc. I have seen several STOCK 8.1 trucks gain 48-52 hp on some simple tunes if the GM calibration was way off and conservative.

Good job on correcting that customers issues. I just dont want everyone to get the idea that all mail order tunes are no good. I just had one that Frost did that was perfect all around.

andrewzpsu

This particular one is from a well respected vendor that has been in the business for quite some time. I'm not naming names, so don't ask. I know this guy can tune VERY well. But when it comes to these cars, we tuners need to have the car in person or else stuff like this can happen.

If you are turning off codes, skip shift, modifying transmission settings, speed limiters, gearing, ... basically anything that doesn't involve fuel and spark ... sure a mail order tune is probably fine.

Now I'm not saying that a mail order tune will never be right. But most times it will be off to some degree. My analogy is that mail order tunes are like Robin Hood shooting an apple off your head... sure he can do it no problem... but you slap a blind fold on him now it gets interesting. He may hit the apple, he may hit nothing, he may hit you. Worth the risk?

A mail order tune provides zero feedback to the tuner. So he doesn't know when he was commanding a 12.0 AFR it was actually outputting a 16.0 at WOT, and when it changed to 12.4 AFR it kept going up to hit above 17.8 AFR. My HP Tuners doesn't record higher than 17.8 but it sure flatlined there.

Now had the tuner known that, it wouldn't be an issue. But what I'm saying is he can't know it through the mail, especially to customers that don't have widebands.

My stance is safety first. So I never recommend a mail order tune for our cars. Not until they put widebands in them from the factory and have WOT fuel trims corresponding to those widebands.

darkhorizon

I am willing to bet there was a mechanical issue with this, such as wrong maf sensor, etc...

It is really really hard to take a stock pcm/maf in and make it run worse than that.

Not the mail order tuners fault... it was the installers problem he put a ton of parts on his car and never bothered to check if it was working. Every mail order guy I know out there offers reflashes for free/cheap, so there was really no excuse to have to spend $250+ on this deal.

desertLS1

iTrader: (8)

Well said.

andrewzpsu

From what I saw when I tuned it there was no mechanical issue to be found. It seemed pretty solid and set up correctly. The MAF was the stock MAF and just worked fine.

Sometimes I see the stock PCM/MAF work perfectly together... commanded = actual. And other times it is rich, and other times lean.

Now every single time I've seen a cam of any size put in, the car outputs leaner AFR, especially at WOT. I've seen baby cams that were driven for quite some time to build up fuel trims output 14s AFRs but seem like stock.

The owner actually did send his computer back in to get reflashed. It didn't help. Reason why? Because the tuner didn't know just how far the car was off.

So put blame where you want to, the customer or the tuner... You'll have people screaming the customer should have a wideband to verify the tuner's settings, and on the converse the tuner shouldn't send mail order tunes out because he can't verify they run correct.

It still won't change the fact that the mail order tune could have blown up his car. And it is still a reason why I will not do a mail order tune, at least not without wideband verification. Safety first!

meine96ws6

iTrader: (4)

Good job..and you saved him money in the long run..thumbs up

ARCTIC '00

Why would the owner opt for a mail tune with a large cam setup in the first place? That was his first mistake.

andrewzpsu

I agree with you. It was obviously not the right decision.

He is new to modding the LS engines, and having your tune shipped to you sounds pretty convenient. But experience comes just after you needed it you know?


On the same front of mishaps I've seen worse. Such has wondering why every time you turn the lights to your car on the engine dies. Sounds pretty interesting right? Very confusing? Not when you realize that the customer's car has his HID lights powered by his MAF lol.

There are a lot of goofy things us tuners see. And I just like to make the community aware of what NOT to do in order to help it out.

chavez885

iTrader: (12)

A mail order tune isn't always the best, but if you work with the tuner, DYNO your car and show them the graph, they work just fine.

Why the hell would you RACE your car without dynoing it to check AFR/power is retarded, sorry. A dyno tune is going to be better everytime, that's obvious.

ARCTIC '00

Now that is classic.

andrewzpsu

Agreed. If you give your tuner feedback on what the car is actually doing, he's going to get it right. The key is they need to know how the car responds to their tune so they can work off of that.

And I really think the tuners who do mail order tunes really need to drive that point across during their sales - ESPECIALLY when it comes to seriously modded cars like this. Even if they have to say, look, we're not going to sell you the tune unless you get yourself a dyno run with wideband reading so we can make adjustments.

The problem is the perception to the customer, especially to someone not as familiar or experienced in modding these cars. They may get that tune and think its done, its right, etc. Kind of like buying an intake ... you put it on, its done. But that mentality of having a tune as just another mod, rather than dialing in your car, leads to people thinking one tune fits all and it doesn't (on these cars).

So what may be common sense to us folk may not be to others.

bozzhawg

I did a mail order tune intially, and after 1 month of sending it back and forth, my sh*t is still not right.... I will never ever do a mail order again, it is a waiste of time... I have a dyno appointment tomorrow at 12:00pm and I cannot wait...... My dyno session will be $350...... I have spent $400+ with shipping on the damn mail order bullsh*t....

I will not out the company but, don't do it..... do a dyno... Hell I would do a diablo predator or trinity before I pay for mail order.... And if I did this it would be a free tune from a buddy.....

MUSTANGBRKR02

iTrader: (91)

So, did you make a full pull on the car with the mail order tune? If so then why considering how lean it was?

TomM

iTrader: (56)

Cool, glad you decided to go that way. You will be much happier this way. I could have tuned it, but the wideband never lies........LMK how it turns out...

T,

bozzhawg

Thx bro for the info and honesty..... I m sure i will be talking to you about something in the future on other builds....

TomM

iTrader: (56)

You're welcome, who did you finally get an appointment with?

T,

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

OP, nice save on the client's engine. However, this thread could get ugly....I'm tuning in for the one I know won't fail to show up with attitude

lemons12

iTrader: (71)

Awesome... Great way to knock the income of many sponsors on this board. I'm glad you figured it out and got the car running.

But come on man... Is it needed to knock all mail order tuners like that? Some suck hard, no doubt.. But some are better than many people could do with a car in front of them on a dyno.

Phil'sC5vette

iTrader: (4)

I really hate to break the news to some of you, but if you get your mail order tune from a shop on here that has done 1000's of cars, your car will come out pretty good IF YOU sent the tuner exactly what modification you have. They will be able to pull from their files a car type with the same modification, and give you that tune "mail order if you will".

Now that tune will NOT be spot on, but on the same LS motor type, heads and cam, compression, intake etc.... a mirror car if you will, should run pretty good.

Yes its not dialed in for your car, so I would expect some low end surging in some cases with large cams.

I recently touched up a tune from a sponsor. I saw nothing to change other than it was stalling sometimes going upto a light in drive at idle. I didnt have time to look at all the owners settings before I made a couple changes, but when I did look, I saw a couple things that I would enhance that this shop didnt change.

That for surely DOESNOT mean the car was tuned wrong, but tuner preferance. The car could be indicating a machnical issue, and that's why it was stalling. We got it running much better.

My point is if you get a mail order tune from one or two shops on this forum that have tuned 1000's of cars, the odds are good they have tuned a mirror car of yours, and the tune should be pretty good. The more modifications your car has, the more chance the mail order tune will be off.

Although that first pull is all over the map, 66 RWHP is alot to gain and even if the mail order tune sucked, that's still alot and Id like to see what changed. Your not going to just change a couple degrees in spark, airflow, driveability issues, and torgue management to gain 66 RWHP.

so what changed?