How much timing advance on a turbo LS2?
03-21-2013, 03:48 PM
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How much timing advance on a turbo LS2? Hey everyone! Hypothetically, if you were to be dyno-tuning an LS2 with a factory rotating assembly, two 62mm turbos running 8lbs of boost, and a custom blower cam what is the maximum timing advance you would give the car at any point? Can I maybe get a number you would use for a safe tune if the engine bay was getting really hot because of the turbos? And also a number you would feel comfortable with if there were no heat issues and everything was running great? Thanks in advance!
-Andrew
-Andrew
03-21-2013, 04:13 PM
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A lot of variables that need to be taken into consideration such as cam size, intercooler type, meth, type of fuel used, etc. Since you made no mention of any of these things, I can only assume you are running pump gas, no meth, etc.
I would take a shot in the dark and say 8*-10* max for a street tune wiht an air/air intercooler. Higher engine bay temps cause higher intake air temps (IAT's) and timing must be pulled with high IAT's. There is a table for this in the tune.
I would take a shot in the dark and say 8*-10* max for a street tune wiht an air/air intercooler. Higher engine bay temps cause higher intake air temps (IAT's) and timing must be pulled with high IAT's. There is a table for this in the tune.
03-21-2013, 05:59 PM
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Thank you fellas!! Much appreciated!
Sorry, I forgot to mention that this would be on 93 octane, no meth. I forget the specs of the cam and can't really mention them anyway, but it's a "Street Beast" from Ed Curtis if that helps. It's an air-to-air intercooler.
I'll wait to get a few more answers and then I'll post up a specific timing advance number and see what you guys think of it. Thanks again!!
A lot of variables that need to be taken into consideration such as cam size, intercooler type, meth, type of fuel used, etc. Since you made no mention of any of these things, I can only assume you are running pump gas, no meth, etc.
I would take a shot in the dark and say 8*-10* max for a street tune wiht an air/air intercooler. Higher engine bay temps cause higher intake air temps (IAT's) and timing must be pulled with high IAT's. There is a table for this in the tune.
I would take a shot in the dark and say 8*-10* max for a street tune wiht an air/air intercooler. Higher engine bay temps cause higher intake air temps (IAT's) and timing must be pulled with high IAT's. There is a table for this in the tune.
I'll wait to get a few more answers and then I'll post up a specific timing advance number and see what you guys think of it. Thanks again!!
03-23-2013, 07:33 AM
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Thanks for the responses guys! I was hoping to have gotten a few more responses but since I didn't I'd like to ask the following...
How do you guys feel about 22 degrees of timing advance on said turbo car? What do you feel about 22 degrees if it was making too much heat in the engine bay due to parts not being coated or wrapped? Would you call that a "safe" tune? What about once the heat issue was resolved? Would you push 22 degrees?
I know this might be hard to answer without seeing the car on the dyno yourself, but I was wondering if this number is just too far-fetched in anyone's opinion. Thanks again!!
How do you guys feel about 22 degrees of timing advance on said turbo car? What do you feel about 22 degrees if it was making too much heat in the engine bay due to parts not being coated or wrapped? Would you call that a "safe" tune? What about once the heat issue was resolved? Would you push 22 degrees?
I know this might be hard to answer without seeing the car on the dyno yourself, but I was wondering if this number is just too far-fetched in anyone's opinion. Thanks again!!
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03-23-2013, 03:57 PM
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Giving a number isn't possible, but I can say with certainty that 22 isn't going to happen.
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03-23-2013, 04:22 PM
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Thanks for the responses guys! I was hoping to have gotten a few more responses but since I didn't I'd like to ask the following...
How do you guys feel about 22 degrees of timing advance on said turbo car? What do you feel about 22 degrees if it was making too much heat in the engine bay due to parts not being coated or wrapped? Would you call that a "safe" tune? What about once the heat issue was resolved? Would you push 22 degrees?
I know this might be hard to answer without seeing the car on the dyno yourself, but I was wondering if this number is just too far-fetched in anyone's opinion. Thanks again!!
How do you guys feel about 22 degrees of timing advance on said turbo car? What do you feel about 22 degrees if it was making too much heat in the engine bay due to parts not being coated or wrapped? Would you call that a "safe" tune? What about once the heat issue was resolved? Would you push 22 degrees?
I know this might be hard to answer without seeing the car on the dyno yourself, but I was wondering if this number is just too far-fetched in anyone's opinion. Thanks again!!
03-23-2013, 04:49 PM
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The person that tuned my car advised me that 22 degrees of timing is absolutely fine on my setup, and that it wouldn't be the cause of my engine blowing up, after I told him everything I've been through since his tune. With my lack of tuning knowledge, I have done some research over the past months to better-understand timing. I, personally, now totally understand why 22 degrees advance timing on a forced induction setup, with the a slightly upgraded fuel system but everything else stock, would cause detonation.
This is the second time that I've had blown ring lands, within under 1,000 miles since the tuner tuned my car. The only factory that I've found that can lead to detonation on my setup is too much timing. This is what others have determined as well. Just need to tell the tuner that I feel he owes me my money back, which is just short of $1,000 that I paid him to blow up my engine and screw up my shift-points to where my car wouldn't shift at WOT. That's all.
03-23-2013, 04:53 PM
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Thanks guys, you share the same opinion as several others (everyone) I've talked to about my situation. Somehow, my tuner thinks that everyone is wrong about 22 degrees being what kept causing my engine to blow. I just need to find a way to convince him that he's the one who's wrong.
I wonder if I can log some easy, short dyno pulls to show him how bad the car runs with this tune. My car still runs, just very poorly. Any ideas??
Thanks!
Last edited by MEAN GTO; 03-23-2013 at 07:11 PM.
03-23-2013, 06:58 PM
#15
Sorry if my posts aren't up to your standards. Lol. I am trying to build a case against the person that tuned my car, if you must know the full details. My thought is that if enough people responded initially, saying the 10-12 range, or "certainly not anything more than __ degrees", I would have been able to better prove my point.
The person that tuned my car advised me that 22 degrees of timing is absolutely fine on my setup, and that it wouldn't be the cause of my engine blowing up, after I told him everything I've been through since his tune. With my lack of tuning knowledge, I have done some research over the past months to better-understand timing. I, personally, now totally understand why 22 degrees advance timing on a forced induction setup, with the a slightly upgraded fuel system but everything else stock, would cause detonation.
This is the second time that I've had blown ring lands, within under 1,000 miles since the tuner tuned my car. The only factory that I've found that can lead to detonation on my setup is too much timing. This is what others have determined as well. Just need to tell the tuner that I feel he owes me my money back, which is just short of $1,000 that I paid him to blow up my engine and screw up my shift-points to where my car wouldn't shift at WOT. That's all.
The person that tuned my car advised me that 22 degrees of timing is absolutely fine on my setup, and that it wouldn't be the cause of my engine blowing up, after I told him everything I've been through since his tune. With my lack of tuning knowledge, I have done some research over the past months to better-understand timing. I, personally, now totally understand why 22 degrees advance timing on a forced induction setup, with the a slightly upgraded fuel system but everything else stock, would cause detonation.
This is the second time that I've had blown ring lands, within under 1,000 miles since the tuner tuned my car. The only factory that I've found that can lead to detonation on my setup is too much timing. This is what others have determined as well. Just need to tell the tuner that I feel he owes me my money back, which is just short of $1,000 that I paid him to blow up my engine and screw up my shift-points to where my car wouldn't shift at WOT. That's all.
03-23-2013, 07:08 PM
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Then just post that and don't beat around the bush. Personally, after Slowhawk posted, who is one of the best ls tuners in my opinion, you could have closed the thread. The ONLY reason it may have lasted as long as it did was if he still had the stock knock retard tables active which will pull quite a bit of timing.
So considering the way that the knock retard tables were modified in this tune (I think someone told me that the tuner set the KR values to pull less timing, and more "tolerance", if you will, before pulling that timing?) should have allowed for an early death to my engine, right? Thanks!
03-24-2013, 07:09 AM
#17
Wasn't trying to beat around any bush, I was just keeping in mind that it's more difficult for a person to be convinced they're wrong based on just one person's opinion, versus if 10 people attested that said person is wrong... without giving away the exact value that is being considered "wrong". This tuner has always been under the impression that everyone on the Internet is wrong, so just using one person that he's never heard of wouldn't do as good as hearing it from 10 people he's never heard of. See where I'm getting?
So considering the way that the knock retard tables were modified in this tune (I think someone told me that the tuner set the KR values to pull less timing, and more "tolerance", if you will, before pulling that timing?) should have allowed for an early death to my engine, right? Thanks!
So considering the way that the knock retard tables were modified in this tune (I think someone told me that the tuner set the KR values to pull less timing, and more "tolerance", if you will, before pulling that timing?) should have allowed for an early death to my engine, right? Thanks!
03-26-2013, 02:23 AM
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You're not going to get a concrete number from anyone concerning total advance timing. When I had my STS turbo (stock bottom end) I was running 17 degrees advance WOT. However, I also tuned the PE table for 11.5 to 1 AFR. In addition, I added up to -6 degrees retard for IATs (over 122 degrees) and had high map/low RPM values as low as -14 degrees. I also added a fuel addition value for high ECT as a safety measure. If I leaned the PE value or reduced the values in the VE table, then my WOT timing would have decreased to prevent knock. Adding octane boost or race gas would have allowed me to go the other way and increase timing.
In short, you're timing curves are a function of knock detected versus RPm/fuel. There is no cookie cutter option. It requires driving, scanning, adjusting...... and repeat.
As for me. I skipped the dyno and used street driving for the majority of the tuning. For WOT, I headed to the track and made a few runs. The point where I had the highest trap speed without knock was the optimal setting. With this method I killed two birds with one stone...... got a few passes in on a beautiful Saturday afternoon + dialed in my tune
In short, you're timing curves are a function of knock detected versus RPm/fuel. There is no cookie cutter option. It requires driving, scanning, adjusting...... and repeat.
As for me. I skipped the dyno and used street driving for the majority of the tuning. For WOT, I headed to the track and made a few runs. The point where I had the highest trap speed without knock was the optimal setting. With this method I killed two birds with one stone...... got a few passes in on a beautiful Saturday afternoon + dialed in my tune
