HP tuners - 5.3 timing table vs LS1 timing table
03-19-2013, 12:03 PM
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HP tuners - 5.3 timing table vs LS1 timing table Hey all. Just started playing with HP tuners on my brother's 5.3 swapped 91 firebird. It's a basic stock 5.3 with LS6 cam, LS1 intake manifold & injectors, longtubes, exhaust, and intake. It's also a T56 car. Recently while looking through the current tune, it seems like the truck timing table is in there and what looks like around 17-19 degrees timing under WOT. I compared it to a timing table from an LS1 tune and the LS1 is running between 25-26 degrees in the same area. I'm wondering if I can copy the entire stock LS1 table and paste it to the 5.3 table to improve driving throttle response and total timing, or of this will cause any issues?
03-19-2013, 01:13 PM
#2
Anyone can feel free to correct me, but in my experience:
The trucks use several "adders" to get a final spark value (at least that's how my 99 was).
So if you add a bunch to the base timing table it might try to add more on top and result in KR.
If you do want to use the other table, make sure you go through all the other areas of spark control and change the ones which will add more during normal driving conditions or WOT.
The type of fuel used will also dictate what you can add. I wanted to keep using 87 octane.
That being said, on mine I did copy a more aggressive timing table from my car into it and the low-mid range had a noticeable difference in feel but I had to dial it back a little because I was getting some KR under heavy load. If I were to tow, I might even need to flash it back to prevent problems.
The trucks use several "adders" to get a final spark value (at least that's how my 99 was).
So if you add a bunch to the base timing table it might try to add more on top and result in KR.
If you do want to use the other table, make sure you go through all the other areas of spark control and change the ones which will add more during normal driving conditions or WOT.
The type of fuel used will also dictate what you can add. I wanted to keep using 87 octane.
That being said, on mine I did copy a more aggressive timing table from my car into it and the low-mid range had a noticeable difference in feel but I had to dial it back a little because I was getting some KR under heavy load. If I were to tow, I might even need to flash it back to prevent problems.
03-19-2013, 01:40 PM
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Anyone can feel free to correct me, but in my experience:
The trucks use several "adders" to get a final spark value (at least that's how my 99 was).
So if you add a bunch to the base timing table it might try to add more on top and result in KR.
If you do want to use the other table, make sure you go through all the other areas of spark control and change the ones which will add more during normal driving conditions or WOT.
The type of fuel used will also dictate what you can add. I wanted to keep using 87 octane.
That being said, on mine I did copy a more aggressive timing table from my car into it and the low-mid range had a noticeable difference in feel but I had to dial it back a little because I was getting some KR under heavy load. If I were to tow, I might even need to flash it back to prevent problems.
The trucks use several "adders" to get a final spark value (at least that's how my 99 was).
So if you add a bunch to the base timing table it might try to add more on top and result in KR.
If you do want to use the other table, make sure you go through all the other areas of spark control and change the ones which will add more during normal driving conditions or WOT.
The type of fuel used will also dictate what you can add. I wanted to keep using 87 octane.
That being said, on mine I did copy a more aggressive timing table from my car into it and the low-mid range had a noticeable difference in feel but I had to dial it back a little because I was getting some KR under heavy load. If I were to tow, I might even need to flash it back to prevent problems.
We got the PCM already setup with a base tune for the LS1 MAF we are using from Jon over at PSI harness's. Cruising AFR is right at 14.7 which is whats commanded, so the MAF and VE tables are spot on. I noticed that most everything else looks like the truck tune still, and would like this motor to feel like a 340-350 HP motor rather than a 300 HP motor lol. As it was, the fuel cut was still set to 5600 RPM, and just changing that to 6200 made a big difference, but timing still feels sluggish, and AFR at WOT was down at 11.4. I already modified the PE tables and am now looking to get some more timing in.
03-19-2013, 03:51 PM
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Trucks do a lot of crappy things like holding off PE
mode and laying down over-sensitive burst knock
retard. Expecting PE to be late probably accounts
for the low timing. If the motor is roughly equal in
CR (~10:1) to the F-body and fueled the same then
a roughly equal timing ought to be tolerable - but
this wants checking and the timing changed last.
Small-motor trucks are about towing fuel economy
so there are likely a lot of small differences there.
mode and laying down over-sensitive burst knock
retard. Expecting PE to be late probably accounts
for the low timing. If the motor is roughly equal in
CR (~10:1) to the F-body and fueled the same then
a roughly equal timing ought to be tolerable - but
this wants checking and the timing changed last.
Small-motor trucks are about towing fuel economy
so there are likely a lot of small differences there.
03-19-2013, 04:09 PM
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Trucks do a lot of crappy things like holding off PE
mode and laying down over-sensitive burst knock
retard. Expecting PE to be late probably accounts
for the low timing. If the motor is roughly equal in
CR (~10:1) to the F-body and fueled the same then
a roughly equal timing ought to be tolerable - but
this wants checking and the timing changed last.
Small-motor trucks are about towing fuel economy
so there are likely a lot of small differences there.
mode and laying down over-sensitive burst knock
retard. Expecting PE to be late probably accounts
for the low timing. If the motor is roughly equal in
CR (~10:1) to the F-body and fueled the same then
a roughly equal timing ought to be tolerable - but
this wants checking and the timing changed last.
Small-motor trucks are about towing fuel economy
so there are likely a lot of small differences there.
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03-19-2013, 05:42 PM
#8
i dropped a 5.3 into my 1998 camaro and used the old tune and i havent ran into any issues yet... the last tune on the car with ls1, 243 heads, and everything else in my sig made 401 hp. it drives good on the ls1 timing tables and mine are jacked up to 29 degrees total. ive been tweaking the tune here and there really need to get a wideband in it though.
03-20-2013, 10:44 AM
#9
With the LS6 cam in a light car it should like 26-28 Degrees WOT, 33-36 cruising, and something like 18-20 at idle. I have found that the weight of the vehicle has some influence on timing due to the load placed on the engine. This should be somewhat accounted for by the timing table because it uses grams/cyl of airflow to calculate timing, but its just something I've observed. Trucks do use a lot of adders. I would eliminate the AFR spark correction table (set all values to 0) and work with the High Octane table to get timing dialed in. On some cars, I have found the AFR spark correction to help if there was a fuzz of tip in knock to wide open throttle, just depends on the setup.
Like said above, zero out the burst knock tables and then from there it's all about finding what it likes without knocking.
Like said above, zero out the burst knock tables and then from there it's all about finding what it likes without knocking.
03-20-2013, 12:00 PM
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With the LS6 cam in a light car it should like 26-28 Degrees WOT, 33-36 cruising, and something like 18-20 at idle. I have found that the weight of the vehicle has some influence on timing due to the load placed on the engine. This should be somewhat accounted for by the timing table because it uses grams/cyl of airflow to calculate timing, but its just something I've observed. Trucks do use a lot of adders. I would eliminate the AFR spark correction table (set all values to 0) and work with the High Octane table to get timing dialed in. On some cars, I have found the AFR spark correction to help if there was a fuzz of tip in knock to wide open throttle, just depends on the setup.
Like said above, zero out the burst knock tables and then from there it's all about finding what it likes without knocking.
Like said above, zero out the burst knock tables and then from there it's all about finding what it likes without knocking.
03-15-2015, 05:23 PM
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I know i'm bringing this back from the dead, but i'm doing it on purpose for someone who might do the same thing I did.
My background as a tuner:
I've never tuned anything except for my own car last year and I didn't do a lot to it. I mostly messed with the 4l80e shift points, limiter, and a few other things. Basically i'm just winging it with my Hptuners Pro.
I read this thread last year after doing a 2001 5.3 ls swap in my 1997 Camaro. I copied the ls1 timing table to my 2001 5.3 computer as it sounded like a good idea. I've been looking over my logs from last year and I ended up with a max timing of 34 degrees at .60 g/cyl between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm. I was curious how I got there as the LS1 timing table should be 25-27 degrees of timing in that area.
Where do these 7 extra degrees come from you ask? The truck computer uses a AFR correction adder table that adds timing. Mine was adding 7 degrees of timing.
I'm just trying to spread what I learned. Hopefully this helps someone. I didn't have a wideband hooked up so I never messed with fueling and maybe that saved my engine (11.2 AFR commanded stock). All of my logs show no knock, but that doesn't mean it likes 34 degrees of timing. I'm going to zero out the AFR adder table and see how the car acts with the true stock LS1 timing table and go from there.
John
My background as a tuner:
I've never tuned anything except for my own car last year and I didn't do a lot to it. I mostly messed with the 4l80e shift points, limiter, and a few other things. Basically i'm just winging it with my Hptuners Pro.
I read this thread last year after doing a 2001 5.3 ls swap in my 1997 Camaro. I copied the ls1 timing table to my 2001 5.3 computer as it sounded like a good idea. I've been looking over my logs from last year and I ended up with a max timing of 34 degrees at .60 g/cyl between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm. I was curious how I got there as the LS1 timing table should be 25-27 degrees of timing in that area.
Where do these 7 extra degrees come from you ask? The truck computer uses a AFR correction adder table that adds timing. Mine was adding 7 degrees of timing.
I'm just trying to spread what I learned. Hopefully this helps someone. I didn't have a wideband hooked up so I never messed with fueling and maybe that saved my engine (11.2 AFR commanded stock). All of my logs show no knock, but that doesn't mean it likes 34 degrees of timing. I'm going to zero out the AFR adder table and see how the car acts with the true stock LS1 timing table and go from there.
John
Last edited by johnminer; 03-16-2015 at 07:48 PM.
03-25-2015, 05:52 AM
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I know i'm bringing this back from the dead, but i'm doing it on purpose for someone who might do the same thing I did.
My background as a tuner:
I've never tuned anything except for my own car last year and I didn't do a lot to it. I mostly messed with the 4l80e shift points, limiter, and a few other things. Basically i'm just winging it with my Hptuners Pro.
I read this thread last year after doing a 2001 5.3 ls swap in my 1997 Camaro. I copied the ls1 timing table to my 2001 5.3 computer as it sounded like a good idea. I've been looking over my logs from last year and I ended up with a max timing of 34 degrees at .60 g/cyl between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm. I was curious how I got there as the LS1 timing table should be 25-27 degrees of timing in that area.
Where do these 7 extra degrees come from you ask? The truck computer uses a AFR correction adder table that adds timing. Mine was adding 7 degrees of timing.
I'm just trying to spread what I learned. Hopefully this helps someone. I didn't have a wideband hooked up so I never messed with fueling and maybe that saved my engine (11.2 AFR commanded stock). All of my logs show no knock, but that doesn't mean it likes 34 degrees of timing. I'm going to zero out the AFR adder table and see how the car acts with the true stock LS1 timing table and go from there.
John
My background as a tuner:
I've never tuned anything except for my own car last year and I didn't do a lot to it. I mostly messed with the 4l80e shift points, limiter, and a few other things. Basically i'm just winging it with my Hptuners Pro.
I read this thread last year after doing a 2001 5.3 ls swap in my 1997 Camaro. I copied the ls1 timing table to my 2001 5.3 computer as it sounded like a good idea. I've been looking over my logs from last year and I ended up with a max timing of 34 degrees at .60 g/cyl between 4,000 and 6,000 rpm. I was curious how I got there as the LS1 timing table should be 25-27 degrees of timing in that area.
Where do these 7 extra degrees come from you ask? The truck computer uses a AFR correction adder table that adds timing. Mine was adding 7 degrees of timing.
I'm just trying to spread what I learned. Hopefully this helps someone. I didn't have a wideband hooked up so I never messed with fueling and maybe that saved my engine (11.2 AFR commanded stock). All of my logs show no knock, but that doesn't mean it likes 34 degrees of timing. I'm going to zero out the AFR adder table and see how the car acts with the true stock LS1 timing table and go from there.
John
Nevermind I found it, I wasn't on the advanced view.
Last edited by jonarotz; 03-25-2015 at 06:50 AM.
03-25-2015, 09:09 PM
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I have to say I dont think its a good idea nor is much time saved by simply pasting a timing table from a different car. Logging is the key here. Log timing and know along with afr or lambda, error also. Make some pulls and see where your are at. Add a little as you go. The factory tunes were not only meant for the engine but the type of vehicle it was in.
