albrntout

Current state: 2003 Z06,No Hood, No rear Bumper, No Interrior, No Ac, No Radio, No Seats, X-Pipe is off at collector but all 4 02's are hooked up, turn car on get the "service tcs and service active handling" which is fair I haven't bled the brakes yet I did hook up the button in center console, checked DIC codes, almost all historic and ones that aren't have to do with missing systems;
No PCM DTC's or BCM DTC's
According to HPTUNERS NO DTC'S AT ALL;

All the little fans and noids work off the HPtuners diag page; So I logged several startup attempts using different pids, and can't spot the issue; (Maybe since I don't know what I should be seeing in results)

Go to turn on, pumps whistle pressurizes fuel system, hit starter car engine spins over, occasionaly pops and sputters, but won't run; it has new cam, crank and cam/crank sensors;
Using default tune;

I have spark, I have fuel pressure, I have compression! I hooked up my Hptuners, and looked at the following PID's; Not sure what I should be seeing though on the ones in bold / color;
1. TPS% (works and blade moves with peddle)
2. INJPulse duty B1/B2 (works and changes with car attempting to startup, or peddle pushing while attempting to start ~32)
3. Current Cyl Firing; cycles thru seen 1-2-3-4-5-7-8 at some point;
4. Ignition advance goes to 11 on startup attempts
5. RPM goes from 120-180 depending on sputter once hit 340 when almost tried to run but I couldn't keep it firing, and so it didn't;
6..Cam Signal hi-lo: changes and is between 2 and 8 What should be here??
7.Crank sensor current cyl; This one seems odd, it shows things like 8.521 and 8.321, I'd expect a solid # between 1 and 8 but dunno what it should be.

7. 02's look correctish .521 b1/b2 .248 rears which are (semi connected in xpipe that is disconnected at collector and hanging down a bit)
8. MAF/MAP both look good and do move in an expected fashion.
I had several others on, they all seemed normal temp, ect, iat, no kr of any sort, volts well over 12; I'v very very confused.
Thinking maybe needs to do the case learn, but it's greyed out not sure how to un grey it, says ect to low, also how to perform with the HpTuners software.

I'v triple checked grounds and continuity between pcm and both crank and cam sensors and they are stellar.... wtf I'm plum stuck! Pls any help is appreciated;

Black Reign

iTrader: (2)

Case relearn has to be done while engine is running.

albrntout

Thanks,
Ok, supposedly car can run without either sensor according to some responses in other threads, but Im still stuck. Wonder if its an oil sensor issue ( does the 4psi before activation apply to these cars)? Any thing else I should / can check?

Old Geezer

iTrader: (3)

Correct crank sensor installed?
Engine been sitting for an extended period? If so, injs sticking?
Plugs look like, after cranking? wet/dry??

" says ect to low"..Causing cold start issues w/excessive fuel?

albrntout

Crank sensor on is 12560228 ( think its right used a 24 tooth ring), sitting 3 years, plugs looked wet after excessive cranking. Maybe excessive fuel, can smell it after several rounds of trying to start. It has 60 lbs inj in it was purchased with blown ring lands due to fuel pump going weak while running sts kit (2010). Tho I did return it to the sts default tune on predator.

albrntout

Tried some more testing, I plugged in the diablo (supplied with sts) and put the turbo "tune" on it, then saved to HPT, then put the return to factory tune on it and saved into hpt and compared. Shows a whopping 18 differences? Then I pulled a stock 2003 z06 tune from the hpt repository, it has 5 differences, from my returned to stock tune as follows:

Base Idle RPM: Target Idle Speed vs. Coolant Temp vs. (Drive & Park, AC on & off)
My tune has P/n Ac on and Off set to "0" across two bottom rows in the table, the compare (downloaded from repository) has "50" across the table what a diff.. yawn

Fuel Tank/Gauge: again this is minor stuff stock vs stock (supposedly)
Capacity mine 18.49 base 18.20
Fuel Tank Primary Capacity 9.64 base 8.71
Then some minor variances in these two tables;
Fuel Primary volume vs. Level
Fuel Secondary Volume vs Level

So ok the stock tune in diablo is close enough I'd guess (effecting the fuel gauge more than anything else)

So check the "turbo tune" vs downloaded stock tune and have a whopping 23 differences (18 really other five are same previous differences in fuel system referring mostly to gauge behavior) ;
Seems fishy to me, as the car has 60lbs injectors, some stupid fuel cutoff deal in the tune, and so forth I'd expect more than that.
1. RPM limits changed (whoppity doo);
2. Power Enrichment (my turbo tune first, download base second);
1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875 1.1875
1.2031 1.2031 1.2031 1.1973 1.1924 1.1670 1.1670 1.1631 1.1631 1.1895 1.2129 1.2354 1.2393 1.2373 1.2148 1.2119 1.2119 1.2119 1.2119
3. Main spark vs Airmass vs RPM (high octane table) a difference of "+1" in center of table between Airmass(g/cyl) starting at .40 ending at 1.20, and rpm 1000 thru 8000 (again big whoop)
4. Spark Correction, IAT Spark Advance Correction - add table;
between .36-1.20(g/cyl) and 95-113(air temp) it shows diffs of 1, 2 and 3 (not much again);
5.Torque Management, table Max torque vs rpm, (differences bit more significant, but still why would it effect turning on!? posted as difference):
404.7 381.7 349.7 320.5 303.3 295.7 281.2 267.5 254.7 242.8 214.0 203.0 191.6 186.0 201.9 208.5 223.5 240.4 256.4 269.5 284.5
6.Maximum Net Engine Torque 639:350 (that's significantly different but again, starting issue)
7.Spark Retard two tables here Retard vs % Torque Reduction, and Engine Torque loss% due to spark retard the "turbo tune" shows all "0" in these tables, the repository base tune has numbers; (still and again turbos aren't even connected have the x-pipe off the collector, so shouldn't effect startup imho)
8. Fuel tank stuff again same differences between my "stock" and download "stock" tune;
9. Fan Temps which are lowered in the turbo tune, but again have nothing to do with turning a car on.

So stumped thinking of parting off the car at this point. Where would the difference in Fuel Injector size be? As I'm getting raw gas smell on cranking the motor over, it seems to me that there is no visible injector adjustment made for the 60lbs'ers;

Black Reign

iTrader: (2)

Engine>Fuel>Injector Flow rate vs KPA
This table should read close to 60 all the way across if you have 60lb/hr. Do you know what brand? There are four tables you should change when changing injectors. If you smell fuel while cranking, defiantly rich and probably has a smaller injector value in it. Smaller injector needs wider pulse width to inject x amount of fuel vs a larger injector with small pulse width.

albrntout

Thanks for help btw, I'm so stumped on this one; Nor am I very good with the HPT product, used it several times on a z28 that went through several motors , heads, cams turbos but always hired someone else to actually tune the dang things.

Injectors have several identifiers on them but they sure are hard to read, but here we go this is what they are:

"SIEMENS DEKA Fuel Injector 107961 630cc 60lb"

Injector flow rate vs KPA VAC (hope that's the table your after);
And it's way off of expected 60's btw, here are values from sts tune file (btw same as stock, tune and all other tunes i'm comparing):
29.14 29.33 29.51 29.70 29.89 30.01 30.20 30.38 30.57 30.75 30.94 31.06 31.25 31.44 31.56 31.75 31.93

danieloneil01

I have Motron 60s on my tune. But mine is a blown so I don't know how much that will affect it.

albrntout

Thanks ill take a deep look. I do intend to go 2 bar sd in the future (ran it on 98 camaro) but mean time, I need to hear it run before put more variables into the soup.

albrntout

So, I hooked up diablo and maxed out injector slope. The values don't hit 60, close tho "57-58" thru table and only that table (wonders never cease) then attempted to start. Well same thing tho its more often and much easier. I emailed sts as expected they want 700.00 and to sell me the tuner they now use ( its funny every time Iv ever talked to them they don't have instructions for older kits and try to sell you they're new kits parts they can't even tell you how they're different wire harnesses work, only the "newest" one); Beyond that gripe I'm going to licenses my ECM and try to adjust with hp tuners. Looking at danieloneil01s tune was insightful but left me with a question. What tables has the sd tune changed? I'm not going to paste and cut your tune in but do want to make the inj adjustments. I'm not knowledgable enough to understand how injection works I don't know the methods used, and I'm way to frustrated with this car it is gonna put me in the hospital at this rate.

Old Geezer

iTrader: (3)

""SIEMENS DEKA Fuel Injector 107961 630cc 60lb""

Those injs are rated at 3 bars, not 4 bars as on an LS system.
At 4 bars, they are 70.46# injs.

albrntout

So I should be trying to get scaled up to 70.46 in the
Engine>Fuel>Injector Flow rate vs KPA ?

So today hooked up timing gun (yup firing on both banks);
Pulled an injector harness, saw 8volts, and it drops and fires;

I'm leaning on this being a tune issue, since compression is solid fuel pressure at rail is 65psi, and it sparks, I also get engine rpm on the scan tools during cranking (hoping that means the cps and cks are working) <-- IS THIS a correct assumption?? How do I know if cps and cpk are working? As I have interior out and x-pipe off getting starter out is simple, and before I bolt it all back together I'd love to know that the sensors are working.
I'm about to use hptuners spend the credits and adjust KPA to 70ish, any other tables I should mess with? Once I know it'll start and idle I intend to hire one of you tuner folks to tune this thing (as I'v done in the past); Once passed smog it'll be converted to the SD 2bar tune, but again I'm in freaking California and can't just go 2bar and run 10+lbs of boost it makes it an auto smog fail, as kit is described as 5-6.5 psi of boost in the CARBEO description.

Thanks again everyone who's chimed in, and shared their .bin files, this has been a 3 year project for me as I'm not generally a "corvette" money person, and as my health has failed last two years I see this car running and sold as a way to get out of debt, where as parted out I might break even on what I'v spent.

danieloneil01

If you use hptuners plug my injector data in. Maybe it's close enough to work with. If you get multiple tunes for the same injectors they might all be different. My tuner had the injector data for these injectors so I believe he did it right. Some people will play with different values to get the car to their liking.

albrntout

Yeah I'm using HPT, I spent my last two credits I tried plugging in values, from an excel sheet as Geezer mentions these injectors are really 71#'ers. I found the spec sheet for them, and of course it ended up being 10 or higher in each cell aka bit different.

I used these setting and got this result
Injector Rated Fuel Pressure: 43.5
Your Fuel Rail Pressure: 58
Injector Rated Flow Rate: 60
Flat IFR Table Flow Rate: 69.28203

Result:
69.28 69.71 70.14 70.57 70.99 71.41 71.83 72.25 72.66 73.08 73.49 73.89 74.3 74.7 75.1 75.5 75.9

One concern, your a 2bar sd and I'm running stock map; So I assume you have to half the value for your 2 bar map. So I double yours and put in charts. I am going to re-attempt the tune, with your static ifr numbers and test again. I intend to log it, if your willing would you be able to look at the log, and what pid's would you want me to setup?

Honestly if I get it to idle I'm going to pay someone to tune it out, but I need it to at least idle for f*** sake. Secondly, I see no Oil Pressure my PID comes out as -3 or 3 every single time! I don't know a good way to MANUALLY check for oil pressure on these motors. Any ideas? I have reconnected X-Pipe, and WideBand02, it was 10:1 at best, and as bad as 6.5:1; I have 3 codes in the DIC now, (better than 27) and still get a Service ABS, Service TCS, Service Active handling on turn on;

danieloneil01

I'm no tuner as I tried and gave up since tuning WOT on the street is crazy and trying to tune from nothing to a car with no MAF, 2 bar MAP sensor, Meth, 60# injectors which I got no data on from the supplier and forced induction. I just have basically the same injectors so thought I would throw you my tune. Getting injector data is like finding a needle in a hay stack.

rawlsfwqq

Come on, you can do better.

albrntout

Well on paper good point Bozz I hope to heaven it matters, and works as a fix. Seems by name it would... Omg know in 30 min or so. Rawls you lost me hope hes right I'm no expert picked a car up on the super cheap with lots of not stock crap on it, an more mechanical issues than iv ever seen on at the time a 10yr old car. Im trying to sort it out before I burn it down, hope its actually using that table gladly send bozz some beer cash if it does..

albrntout

Bozz you've slightly confused me here, r u referring to the bin supplied from Danieloneil, that ain't my tune I'm yet to post since no one wants to look if its comments from my description of differences between my stock "on diablo came with car" and a htp rep stock vin both have same values and its a stock cam car as I put a stock cam in it

bozzhawg

My bad, I got yall crossed up, I thought that was yours, disregard.