glitchz71

iTrader: (1)

Well, I'm on my phone and I just typed up a damn novel explaining my situation, then decided to grab a couple pics to reference from my photobucket and my browser decided to refresh my thread and I lost the whole thing, so here's the condensed version:
My hot rod/cruiser project car is coming along quickly and I'm getting closer to having to address the electrical/computer aspects. I have a 1947 Sedan Delivery. I picked up a 2005 5.3 with all the wiring, computer, DBW pedal, etc included. I've got the motor in, along with twin turbos which go to side pipes (why I want dual wideband motioning). Behind the engine I've got a T56 from a GTO and a Ford 8.8. I'm shooting for 650HP. Street driven. I have no tuning experience but I fell I'd be a quick learner with my engineering background and solid grasp of electrical/computers. There are no tuning shops within 500 miles that I'm aware of but I would prefer to do it myself just like I have everything else on the car.
I'm estimating the Holley Dominator will set me back about $3200 with the right harnesses and wideband O2s. That's a **** ton of cash for me and blows my budget out of the water. It adds dual wideband tuning, the ability to switch between tunes which coul be handy for my 4000'+ elevation change drives, and will be more expandable incase I want to do something wilder down the road.
Keeping the stock ECM, and getting a tuning suite I estimate at $2000 with wbo2s, etc.
Is the tuning software as reliable/capable/failsafe as the Dominator, or at least porportionately so compared to the price?
I don't want to jump into either of these and end up regretting it, so I'm looking for input from those with experience.
Thanks.
Here's a couple pics, and if you're interested my build thread is in the conversions 'Project Sudden Delivery'

RonSSNova

iTrader: (3)

Way cool project.

I've tuned my 5.3 single with HPTuners.
The stock ECM is more than capable.
Can you tell us which ECM you have? Red blue or red green connectors?
Red blue has advantages.

HPTuners is 650. Add another 6-700 for good widebands.
HPT will allow dual wideband inputs.
Pretty steep learning curve using the software though. It's not intuitive and doesn't come with a "how to" guide.

You are also going to have to mod that harness to get it to fit your truck. You won't have trouble with your background, but it's a royal hassle. :-)

I have a little experience with the Holley. My buddy with little to no tuning experience had his twin turbo setup running and driving in about a week. I helped a bit and with my knowledge of tuning the stock stuff it all seemed pretty straight forward. I mean you have the same inputs and outputs, and much the same tables etc. Holley doesn't have all the oddball stuff you can get to in HPT.

The Holley also uses Wideband O2's.

Stock ECM has no real fail safes. Although a guy could set some out of bound fueling and timing I suppose. And of course rev limits.

I honestly like the stock tuning and am now tuning a few local turbo cars. HPT has paid for itself already.

My background BTW is microwave/RF electronics. Engineering tech, production tech, project management with Tektronix.

Ron

Blown06

iTrader: (32)

There is really no comparison when using for a hot rod project. Holley all the way.

mrvedit

Commenting on RonSSNova's post:
I run two AEM widebands with gauges to monitor/log each bank; they are $175 each. You really only need one.
One big advantage I see with the Holley is that it can run closed loop with wideband O2 sensors.
If you can afford the $2500+ for the Holley and haven't already bought/learned HP Tuners, I would get the Holley.

glitchz71

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the replies guys, I guess I pretty much know what I'm getting into either way, I just didn't want to overlook anything. The biggest thing for me is definitely the dual wideband monitoring in closed loop. I only stuck one bung in each downpipe because I was under the understanding you could run WBO2s in a narrowband mode for the stock ECM, but I talked with a representative from Innovative and he said I would still need a second set for narrowbands. I'll double check which ECM I have and post back. I went with the High Ram and a LS2 TB so I'd also need an X-Link to run the TB properly I believe, but Holley can operate it fine. Holley does require me to switch out the pedal to a different DBW pedal. That'll pretty much leave me with a FULL leftover harness/computer/pedal/intake/TB/coils/injectors setup which is why I bought the package deal in the first place. Is there much resale value in selling off those parts? I'm not sure what they're worth but it'd be awesome if I could recoup some of the added expense if I go with the Holley.

mrvedit

Lots of people are swapping LSx engines into their older hot rods. They would love to buy a complete pcm/harness/etc package instead of going to the junkyard or paying for new parts.
One or two were posting such questions in this section this week.

Project GatTagO

iTrader: (7)

Also, don't forget that the Dominator also includes full boost control, which a stock ECU can't do.

Andrew

glitchz71

iTrader: (1)

FWIW the harness/PCM is a Blue/Green. Seems to coincide with the 2005 DBW truck harness that it should be. Would it be a likely candidate for someone interested in a swap harness? If so, I may clean everything up, take pictures and post them up in the classifieds, perhaps someone will be looking to convert their long block to a full on swap that isn't wanting the added boost controller, etc that I do. Thanks again for the input guys.

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

Started tuning GM stuff with a 411 PCM & HPtuners. Once you get the hang of it, it's very flexible. Keep in mind, I have a background in tuning other ECUs. I now run a Holley Dominator. Hands down, the Holley is far easier to tune and much more consistent. The full Dominator had a lot of flexibility with a ton of I/O. The software looks like it was written by someone following the KISS principle. I would never even consider going back. My driveability was fine tuned for hours in HP tuners with it's myriad of settings. I achieved the same results (better in some situations) in far less time with the Holley.

Downsides? There are a couple:

• You have to use Holley's proprietary wideband sensors
• Their tech support @ headquarters leaves something to be desired. They comp a guy to run their forum but he's not an employee of Holley. He is pretty quick to respond, tho'.
• Don't even consider the HP. Very limited I/O and you'll run out of channels quickly. Not to mention it can only utilize one wideband.
• The cost of the ECU itself doesn't accurately reflect the total cost of a functioning system.
  

Holley nickel & dimes you on every BS harness. They don't even give you an effin' power harness with the $1700 Dom. I saved about $500 by making my own harnesses. All the same connectors you'd buy from Holley are readily available at Mouser electronics for a fraction of the cost. Throw in some good TXL wire & a nice pair of crimp pliers and you're on your way.

Ryan

glitchz71

iTrader: (1)

The DIY harnesses idea is tempting. I've got quality ratcheting crimpers and a few Mouser catalogs lying around from random electronics projects I've built in the past. Where did you get the Dominator for $1700? I see it listed for around $1970 typically, I knew I should've jumped on that Amazon sale earlier in the year @ $14xx. Tick Performance has them for $2189, but I'm curious if their 25% Holley discount works on the ECU and harnesses also. If so I may be leaning toward becoming a member there.

ryan23

iTrader: (5)

Yeah, I got in on that $1400 Amazon sale =) Looks like someone (not me) is trying to flip one of those Amazon deals on Ebay right now for $1850. Maybe try talking him down? The box pictured looks suspiciously like the one mine came in =)

Harness wise, one of the deciding factors for me was that I already had a decent LS1 harness. Even if I spent the $3xx for a brand new Holley engine harness, I'd still have to extend it for my particular application (RX-7). So in the end, I just extended my original harness using good quality TXL wire. Best deal I found on wire was @ Waytek wire. I can probably scan my receipt from Mouser & PM it, if you'd like. There are four main plugs, I only ordered the first 3. Haven't had a need to that 4th connector yet.... but it's coming .

Ryan

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

When doing you're cost comparison don't forget to figure in things like gauges and such that the Holley will display on a cheap tablet. I'm building a 1951 Five Window with a 408, 6-71 blower, 16-66lb injectors on E85. By the time I figured in the cost of the harness and paying for HP tuners and all the gauges I would need to buy it just made more sense to go with the Holley Dominator. I also bought the new Holley Dash and if they release the updates they are talking about then I will wire the whole truck with it including headlights/Running lights/Brake lights/ Turn signals and A/C and I will still have room to monitor Boost pressure and temp/ Oil pressure and temp/ Trans pressure and temp/ water temp and just about anything else I want to monitor. Plus I can log everything. Yes it cost quite a bit but when you add up everything it does right out of the box like the self learning feature and so on you're actually getting a lot for the money over what the cost is to use a stock computer.

M_Minnick

iTrader: (1)

If you decide to go with the Holley, definitely join Team Tick and buy everything from them. You will save at least $600 vs. Summit's prices, the ECU alone is $1642 from Tick. If you are ambitious enough build all of your own harnesses, there are potential savings of hundreds of dollars there also. Here is a great thread from the Holley forum with details on doing just that:

http://forums.holley.com/showthread....als-Holley-EFI

Mike

nocooler

iTrader: (5)

There is always MS3 LSX pnp gold box - just over $1200 and you are running. Or there is MS3pro if you need more i/o and options.

Just some other options.

glitchz71

iTrader: (1)

Well I purchased my #teamtick merchandise last night. Sounds like that's definitely the way to go. I'm still kicking myself for not getting that $1400 deal, but Tick Performance seems like a great group to work with, and even if I end up doing a 180 and not going with the Dominator, there's plenty of savings to be had.
Thanks for the link, Right now I'm lacking spare time with working overtime, taking on a college adjunct professor job and studying for my Professional Engineering exam, but after the next couple weeks I hope to have enough free time to justify building my own harnesses.

glitchz71

iTrader: (1)

I may read more about te Megasquirt option too, sounds like it's got a lot of options, but more of a learning curve. Does it handle the self-learning and dual widebands as well as Holley? I've got some more reading to do I suppose.

84c10

iTrader: (1)

Find a Holley EFI dealer and let them tell you what you need and buy from them. Holley has the best EFI on the market no doubt, instead of calling tech service you will have a Holley EFI dealer that is fully trained to answer any questions you may have.

ezstriper

in my opinion the factory ECM vs aftermarket no comparison HP tuners is clunky and a pain...mega squirt or holley Far better

thewrx

iTrader: (1)

I would agree with this statement, especially for a purpose built hot rod without all the stock eletronic **** that is on a new car.