JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

Well that and they don't always flow consistently. The 60s seem to operate better. Anything above that and I'd just go right to ID.

irrational

So after changing the min fuel miligrams to .018, zeroing out the minimum pulse ms in the injector tables and lowering the ve table in the idle section it seems that these injectors simply do not have good enough low pulsewidth characteristics for my engine to idle with in a somewhat decent manner unless there is something in my tune that im overlooking. Engine idles at 10.8 AFR with .018mg fuel in the transient tab. Lowering it to the point that i can get a decent idle AFR gives me a pretty bad stumble, and at some points the injectors fail to open entirely giving a complete miss on some cylinders. Im not saying that all 80lbers will idle like this but i think this set is especially touchy below the knee.

So in that line of thinking, 60lb injectors should suite this build well correct? i used a couple calculators and found that 60lb'ers should give me right around 700hp to the flywheel at 14psi @ 80% duty cycle. or atleast should be enough to support that much hp at the lower 43.5 psi fuel pressure. what im wondering though is if ill have the same low PW below the knee issues im having with these 80lb'ers and i should just spring for a set of ID's.

However jake you were saying that i could change the end of injection timing tables to help lengthen the burn a little bit to help clean the idle up. i would try that but i dont see any tables specifically for end of timing event tables that apply specifically to idle, and not all events as a whole which would cause issues in the higher rpms right? seeing as shifting all timing events a couple degrees retarded at all rpm's at a specified temperature may help with the idle AFR's but what will that do in the top end?

Now would it be possible to drive these injectors at a higher voltage (such as highest voltage specified on spec sheet) in order for them to open more consistently by inducing a stronger magnetic field to help control the pintle at lower pulsewidths? but then i guess i be worried about the ecu transistors being overheated at that point.

The reason im bringing up 60lb'ers is because a friend of mine needs injectors for his 6.2 and im thinking this would work out pretty well in his setup, but only if i can wrangle 60lb injectors at idle on this build as well.

JakeFusion

iTrader: (7)

It's the Normal and Boundary tables. Move them to 5.85 or something and see. Worth a shot before swapping injectors.

Darth_V8r

iTrader: (4)

I was gonna suggest even going to 5.95-6.00.

Also, remember your VE got adjusted quite a lot at the low end while dialing it in. Personally I would set that minimum low enough that you get a lean idle - even if it stumbles, and then correct your fueling with the VE table.

Just something else to try to give the injectors one last chance. In the end though, they may just be too big

MontecarloDrag

iTrader: (3)

As I previously told you, Deka 60 lbs will perform a lot better in your engine.
However, I'm sure the 80s work in a decent manner. Raise your idle speed to at least 750, put a set os stock injectors to tune idle airflow, RAF and VE for part throttle so you aren't chasing your tail and tune the VE and idle airflow using good injector data.

Then put the 80s back and adjust injector settings until you can move the AFR up/down using the scanner controls (if you command a leaner AFR than 14.7 you should see a change in the wideband, if you command a richer one it should also cause a richer afr in the WB, it doesn't matter if they don't match).

If you can't change AFR using the scanner live controls you will not be able to change fueling using VE either.
Start with 0.012 transient mg, don't zero the minimum PW use the known data. Start from there and lower a little at a time and the AFR should be stable at least at 13 at 750 rpm idle.
If it doesn't then you simply have Chinese injectors or something wrong.

dw456post

Is the Minimum Fuel mg in a E40 computer the same as Fuel Delta Min Incr?

irrational

alright well ill have to borrow some stock injectors to get that done since my old ones were filled with rust from the previous owner. Ill update this thread once ive done what you have said. Ill also try adjusting the EOIT as well.

irrational

Well to update the thread i borrowed some stock injectors, part number 17113698, i believe they came off of a stock 5.3. i installed them and set my fuel pressure at 58. I set my RAF at idle pretty close to what it needs to be. I loaded up a completely stock engine segment from a 4.8 including injector IFR. The engine starts great, but after the afterstart enrichment decays it runs pig rich on the stock ve table, adjusting the injector flow rates to get it where i need it to be makes the rest of the table extremely lean. but thats not my main issue.

It seems as though if i put in 24lb/h into the IFR table and i attempt to tune my ve table to get a leaner idle once i reach about 56ish in the idle cells it drops off the face of the earth and runs super lean, below 55 it refuses to idle at all, while at 60 it idles at 11.5 AFR.

meanwhile adjusting the IFR table to around 35lb/h causes the entire table to lean out terribly but gives me a somewhat leaner idle at around 13 but i get the feeling this is the incorrect way to go about fixing this issue.

Im thinking that at idle my alternator might be dropping off voltage and causing the fuel pressures to change, ill have to check that tomarrow but i cant see anything in the tune that would cause this.

Old Geezer

iTrader: (3)

irrational

I appriciate the help you guys have given me so far, im just still stuck at the same spot i was before. I get the feeling this is the same issue i was having with the other 80lb injectors and now im having it with the stock injectors.

I drove the car for a week after i put the stock injectors in, everything worked great i loaded up the stock tune, adjusted the ve table a bit and off i went, everything was great. Suddenly yesterday i went to start the car and it wouldnt idle would go full lean and die. So i adjusted the start enrichment thinking it was just something i overlooked.

Then it wouldnt idle when warmed up, and come to find out i cannot lean it out enough without the engine going full lean and dying. Sounds oddly familiar like the same thing the 80lb'ers were doing. So now im narrowing this down to an electrical issue or a tune issue. And here is the actual problem im having.

Below a certain threshold in the ve table it will go full lean, reguardless of what the actual number is. By adding 10 points to the 40-55kpa at 800rpm parts of the table it will idle, but anything less will not idle. When it does start after adding the 10 points idles rich, as you would expect. From that point lowering by 1 point and reflashing i can get it down to about 13.5 afr but below that it will go full lean and die, requiring me to repeat the process. I adjusted the transient fuel mg minimum to try and cure the full lean issue, currently its set at .090, lowing it past that the engine goes full lean, right now the engine idles at 13.5 which is acceptable however now putting the car in drive causes it to go full lean. Could possibly be a ve table issue, ill have to find out more on that tomarrow.

I also have an issue with my narrow band o2 sensors reading 450mv with nothing plugged into them, could this possibly be what the computer is reading and attempting to adjust the fueling from, even with closed loop disabled? I attempted to wire in the narrowband output from my plx wideband into the high o2 sensor input but it doesnt seem to be reading it.

I also ruled out a fuel pump and alternator, voltage is rock solid at 14.2 even at 400 rpm and fuel pressure is steady at 58psi even when it goes full lean.

joecar

Which OS are you running (and which year/model/vehicle is it from)...?

statesman

I'd say that the issue is either in your OS or your PCM. Try doing a full flash of your tune... if the problem doesn't go away then you'll probably need to replace the PCM.

irrational

Here is a listing of my entire os numbers, im not entirely sure what vehicle it came from because i bought the pcm used, but its a 0411 pcm. https://goo.gl/photos/aUjqA8eCxvAyRMJA6

Im leaning towards the pcm as well, since ive ruled everything else out. Ive already tried a write entire and it didnt do anything. Ill try it a couple more times before ordering another pcm as this seems to be an electronic issue at this point.

Does hptuners have any ways to transfer those credits from my old pcm or am i hosed on those?

joecar

Ok, that looks like EFILive COS3 based on 12202088 (2001 F-car).


I've seen some earlier truck OS's that idled rich regardless of any adjustments to the VE tables (Main VE and Backup VE), we're still trying to figure that out.

joecar

+1 starting to sound like it's the PCM.

irrational

Well the vin is for a 2001 silverado when i flashed it the first time so i might have one of those problem child ecu's.

joecar

The early truck OS's that I've seen the rich-idle problem on were on non-411 PCM's

( whereas 12202088 runs on 411 PCM )

irrational

Ah i see what you mean.

Well i tuned it for about 6 hours today, flashed absolutely everything back to stock disabled all closed loop functions and got a somewhat decent idle however the lean issue still persists.When i first started it, the engine would start great run for about 10 seconds perfect afr's and then within the matter of 2 seconds go dead lean.This would happen anywhere on the map after started, full throttle, half throttle idle same thing.

So i adjusted the ve table thinking after afterstart enrichment decayed that the ve table was going dead lean, i found that adjusting the ve table caused me to be on what seems like two different maps that keep switching back and forth depending on uncertain conditions.

Going below a certain point on the ve table results in a super lean idle, and going about 10 points above that then richens it up to 11.6 anything in between results in a super lean idle. The only way ive gotten this to actually idle and run is by jacking my RAF table sky high and keeping adaptive idle enabled to wrangle it back down to the idle i need. Very broken and bad way to do it, but it doesnt seem to work any other way.

The ve map seems to be in a constant state of flux, nothing is solidly fixed. What was rich last flash might be too lean the next. Using the wb error results in way off AFR's in the ve table. multiplying by half of what was on the wb err table results in extremes at both ends of the spectrum. And Im comparing the scanner with the wb gauge on my dash, they match 100% so im not crazy here.

If im going to try another PCM what year/vehicle should i get one out of that would be my best bet thats still gen 3?

joecar

+1 try another 411 PCM...

try either 2001 F-car (OS 12202088) or 2002 F-car (OS 12212156), or a 411 flashed wih those... do you have DBC throttle...?

Your current PCM:
- inpect the pins in the connectors for damage.
- open it and inpect for water damage internally.

Also check the harness connector pins for damage.

irrational

SUCCESS!!

12212156 OS worked perfectly!, i even have the engine idling now at 16:1 without issues. I also tried the 12202088OS without success, it had the same issue.

Secondary issue now is that i need to edit the ve table rows for boost above 105kpa. It looks like the edit function for the rows in the primary ve table is greyed out. Is there any way to add the extra rows in the stock os without switching to the speed density os, as this seems to be my issue.