Low power or high expectations ?!?
10-05-2016, 07:41 PM
#1
Low power or high expectations ?!? Issue after issue I am getting my car tuned in again I had felt the car was stronger than ever but after being on the dyno 3 hours I am very disappointed.
Run down on the setup
370ci 8.5-1 compression fully built
Texas speed ls3 heads 260cc
Cam motion cam
Water meth
Cold air intake
1-7/8 headers to 3" exhaust
Kenne Bell supercharger 15psi
Run down on the tune
93 octane
12.2 afr wide open
15 degrees timing
Car put down 604 and 589, tuner said the dyno is conservative but I still don't think something is right. Before heads, 12psi, and no meth it made 570.
Afr seems right but on a pull car still smokes a lot.
Any suggestions ? Is this right or should I be happy with it ?
Run down on the setup
370ci 8.5-1 compression fully built
Texas speed ls3 heads 260cc
Cam motion cam
Water meth
Cold air intake
1-7/8 headers to 3" exhaust
Kenne Bell supercharger 15psi
Run down on the tune
93 octane
12.2 afr wide open
15 degrees timing
Car put down 604 and 589, tuner said the dyno is conservative but I still don't think something is right. Before heads, 12psi, and no meth it made 570.
Afr seems right but on a pull car still smokes a lot.
Any suggestions ? Is this right or should I be happy with it ?
10-05-2016, 10:53 PM
#2
wait, you went from 12psi to 15psi and added meth? Why would you expect a ton more power? Meth/water cools things down and lowers the amount of power the engine will make. its like peeing on a fire... the fire dies down... where do you think the power is going to go when you pee on it? Now, it is safer to run the engine that way, so keep using the water/meth. Nice and cold EGT? Do you have an EGT gauge? If the EGT is excessively low you can always dial back the meth/water.
10-05-2016, 11:41 PM
#3
wait, you went from 12psi to 15psi and added meth? Why would you expect a ton more power? Meth/water cools things down and lowers the amount of power the engine will make. its like peeing on a fire... the fire dies down... where do you think the power is going to go when you pee on it?
10-06-2016, 12:00 AM
#4
Smokes a lot? Is it black smoke, Blue smoke?
Couple things, If this is a car built for the track then go see what it runs, Dyno numbers are nice but don't mean a lot in the real world.
You didn't give many details on this build or the previous setup so it's kind of hard to judge power output with so little to go on.
Custom cam?
Can you post your dyno graph?
What did your torque numbers do? Superchargers are better at making torque and peak HP numbers tend to be lower than a turbo builds Where a turbo makes power up top a blower motor tends to level off or start falling.
Couple things, If this is a car built for the track then go see what it runs, Dyno numbers are nice but don't mean a lot in the real world.
You didn't give many details on this build or the previous setup so it's kind of hard to judge power output with so little to go on.
Custom cam?
Can you post your dyno graph?
What did your torque numbers do? Superchargers are better at making torque and peak HP numbers tend to be lower than a turbo builds Where a turbo makes power up top a blower motor tends to level off or start falling.
10-06-2016, 03:47 AM
#5
I will just ignore the water meth argument here.
Yea the the car still smokes, black smoke. I have ran a compression test and everything there looks good. Car is more of a street strip car so I'm not 100% stuck on a dyno number nor a track time. Power pulled until 6500rpm, and torque peaked at 2800. Cam motion 226/242 115+4
Yea the the car still smokes, black smoke. I have ran a compression test and everything there looks good. Car is more of a street strip car so I'm not 100% stuck on a dyno number nor a track time. Power pulled until 6500rpm, and torque peaked at 2800. Cam motion 226/242 115+4
10-06-2016, 04:21 AM
#6
Here Kingtaldumb... Do some reading before you go making yourself look even more foolish You really need to quit trying to answer questions that you know nothing about....In other words maybe you need to read and throw away your keyboard! http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2012...nol-injection/
"Power at constant equivalence ratio and engine airflow is decreased while fuel and energy consumption are increased."
-Water Addition to Gasoline-Effect on Combustion, Emissions, Performance, and Knock.” Accessed October 6, 2016. http://papers.sae.org/820314/.
See? Now you try. Go find a research/scientific article written by someone (other than me since you think I am wrong about everything) about combustion engines, I assure you there are plenty to choose from, which help you prove/make your point. Magazine articles (you make me lol) and random websites do not count, because individuals without scientific background typically write anything that sheep want to hear. Or that they think is true. OR whatever, whats my point see, you can find anything you want on the internet.
I've tuned plenty of water injection setups. I put it on every car I ever own forever and ever. I am very familiar with what water does to a fire- it sucks the energy right out of fire, in case you weren't sure. If you needed some kind of magazine to tell you the "truth" (lies?) about how fire and water behave together, I just don't know what to tell you.
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10-06-2016, 07:04 AM
#9
Restricted User
You have 8.5:1 compression and are running mild boost. Turn the water/meth off to see what it does so we can move past that argument. Its not going to detonate. I don't see any knock at 18 PSI with water/meth off with 10:1 compression.
I don't think you picked up any power at all from the head swap. Your gains are likely from the 3 PSI boost increase alone.
I don't think you picked up any power at all from the head swap. Your gains are likely from the 3 PSI boost increase alone.
10-06-2016, 07:30 AM
#11
Restricted User
IATs are far less significant than most think. A 60 degree increase of IATs is only going to cause compression temps to be a small % higher than normal. 120 degrees or 180 degrees of air going into cylinder that is surrounded by hot steel that is a few hundred degrees is going to cause that air to heat up very quickly before gas is even sprayed into it, and compression is only going to heat it much further. By the time those 2 reach the cylinder and then get compressed, the difference in temps is going to be closer to 10-15 degrees and on a conservative tune will make absolutely no difference.
The only thing lower IATs do in most circumstances is help aid flow capacity.
There are guys running E85 with no intercooler, no water/meth, with 250 degree IATs and still cramming tons of boost with no detonation.
Take Chris Bishir's S10 for example. Stock bottom end 5.3, E85, no intercooler or meth, 31 PSI from twins, running LOW 8's in the quarter. He said he was running IATs in the upper 200s.
The only thing lower IATs do in most circumstances is help aid flow capacity.
There are guys running E85 with no intercooler, no water/meth, with 250 degree IATs and still cramming tons of boost with no detonation.
Take Chris Bishir's S10 for example. Stock bottom end 5.3, E85, no intercooler or meth, 31 PSI from twins, running LOW 8's in the quarter. He said he was running IATs in the upper 200s.
10-06-2016, 05:39 PM
#14
If you are trying to make a point about something scientific, you have to use an actual scientific article with references. Like this:
"Power at constant equivalence ratio and engine airflow is decreased while fuel and energy consumption are increased."
-Water Addition to Gasoline-Effect on Combustion, Emissions, Performance, and Knock.” Accessed October 6, 2016. http://papers.sae.org/820314/.
"Power at constant equivalence ratio and engine airflow is decreased while fuel and energy consumption are increased."
-Water Addition to Gasoline-Effect on Combustion, Emissions, Performance, and Knock.” Accessed October 6, 2016. http://papers.sae.org/820314/.
Well if you are going to try to dig yourself out of giving bad advice you should at least read the article you linked, The article you linked is based on water injection dummy not water/meth injection, They are not the same thing!
If that is truly what you believe then why would you install it on every car you have ever owned forever and ever and ever lol ?
Last edited by LLLosingit; 10-06-2016 at 05:55 PM.
10-06-2016, 07:55 PM
#15
If you are getting black smoke, your AFR's are way too rich, regardless of what the wideband shows. This will lower power on its own. However, I have to agree with KingWallOfTexttard on the water injection issue. It is very easy to use too much water. This will also kill power. Pure meth is almost idiot proof in this regard.
10-07-2016, 06:28 AM
#16
I may end up putting smaller nozzles in for the water meth, as I could be injecting a little to much it never bogged the motor.
I'm not a fan of using the tail pipe sniffer as compared to having an open 02 bung right after my header.
I'm not a fan of using the tail pipe sniffer as compared to having an open 02 bung right after my header.
10-07-2016, 09:14 AM
#17
Restricted User
You've got a major problem elsewhere. You're about 100-150 HP short.
10-14-2016, 10:42 AM
#19
TECH Enthusiast
Which Kenne belle is it? Intercooled?
That small amount of timing is weird to me.. I'd be expecting way more than that.
Like others have said, I don't think the water meth is helping, I'd turn it off till it started to show KR.
What are the spark plugs telling you? I'd bet that there's not even any timing mark showing on the ground strap yet.
That small amount of timing is weird to me.. I'd be expecting way more than that.
Like others have said, I don't think the water meth is helping, I'd turn it off till it started to show KR.
What are the spark plugs telling you? I'd bet that there's not even any timing mark showing on the ground strap yet.
10-18-2016, 08:05 AM
#20
Which Kenne belle is it? Intercooled?
That small amount of timing is weird to me.. I'd be expecting way more than that.
Like others have said, I don't think the water meth is helping, I'd turn it off till it started to show KR.
What are the spark plugs telling you? I'd bet that there's not even any timing mark showing on the ground strap yet.
That small amount of timing is weird to me.. I'd be expecting way more than that.
Like others have said, I don't think the water meth is helping, I'd turn it off till it started to show KR.
What are the spark plugs telling you? I'd bet that there's not even any timing mark showing on the ground strap yet.
Not sure if the reason for low timing is that I don't have knock sensors or what ? we picked up 30hp by adding a 1.5 degree timing
No timing mark on spark plugs
Last edited by 973800CamaroRS; 10-18-2016 at 09:52 AM.