WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

ok so as many of you prob know...i cannot get my injectors to work out

here is what i have done thus far:

IFR table set at 43.65# at WOT scaled up to what it should be. Checked it with the % increase of 43.65/26.4. It all matched up. Put it in the car and the idle sucked. 30 kPa and up was on the lean side, but made sense. However, under 30 kPa was very rich, about -10 to -15. The o2 oscillation got VERY lazy on me as well. Before it was very nice and now its really sluggish, about 50% less oscillation at idle. The car also hesitated when initially given gas. And when you let off the idle would bog. Guys, the idle was oscillating on me. At time 300-1100 RPM idle. IT WAS BAD. Took fuel out of the VE, about 15%, and the idle still said rich.

Well I wanted a car that ran right and didn't run like **** so I took them out and put the stockers back in. Before I did this I sprayed brake cleaner at all the orings to check for leaks and nothing. Fuel pressure was great as well. Put the stockers back in and BAM, car ran perfect again. o2s came to life, idle was smooth. Did some more fine tuning and got everything to zero out on the fuel trims.

Figured I would go out on a limb and try to enter the values in the table at 37.8#, the 3 bar reading. Idle was fine, after a drive around town though they seemed to richen up, but oddly enough, only changed from the 4 bar tune was to put them at 3 bar, and it wasnt as rich at idle. Lower numbers and it should be richer, not leaner. So this makes me think its a faulty rich at idle becuase of lazy o2s. Figured I would try to tune the VE a little bit and after taking about 25% out of the table my idle trims went right back up again. Idle isn't horrible but it's still saying very rich. The idle does stumble some and at first the rpms will dip down when you let off the gas, to about 600 and idle is set at 875.

I have just run out of things to do. I have tried playing wiht the proportional closed loop gains, the base vs airflow tables, I have done a lot. I thoguht just the VE needed to be changed but this isn't working out.

Now I am just starting to think bad injectors. I am talking with Geoff at Thunder Racing about this now to see if anything else can be done. Maybe the pulse widths need to be adjusted, hell I dont know. Racetronix doesnt have any trouble shooting information for me at all, they said to just go to the vendors so I'm out of luck with them. Does anyone else have any idea of what I can do? I have read about these injectors in the past being a pain to deal with.

Any other help would be so nice right about now, or a recommendation for a fuel injector that I only have to tune the IFR table, something around the same size, 38#.

Also, heads and cam are not on the car yet, I want to get it running right before I go doing that. o2 sensors are new as well. The only other tables that may effect this but I wouldnt think would, is i increased the base vs airflow tables over stock to get better oscillating o2s at idle before, i went from 128 to 256, if Keith at HP Tuners would ever get back to me I could figure out if this could cause it seeing in the tables it says this is on injector size and I may even need to go lower. Anyone know?? The makers of these products I am using have poor customer support.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00

Now I am just starting to think bad injectors.... The makers of these products I am using have poor customer support.

If that is the case then why does the thread title read like it is a fact? "my persistent RACETRONIX injector problems, will it ever end??"

That does not seem like a very fair assessment now does it?

The fact is you have not diagnosed your problem yet, you are still fighting to get a grasp on your tuning software but yet you are constantly blaming the injectors. There are 1000's of people worldwide running these injectors in all types of vehicles including LS1's w/o problems? If Thunder Racing and other customers can get them to work properly the question that begs to be asked is what are you possibly doing wrong or what is so different about your combo that it is causing your tuning issues? Is it fair to blame Racetronix and HP tuners for your lack of tuning and diagnostic experience? There are literally 100's of different things that can cause tuning issues which are unrelated to the injectors or the tuning software. I gave you some basic things to look for and consider. I put you in touch with Geoff @ Thunder to help you delve deeper into your application-specific problem but yet you make it sound is if Racetronix blew you off. Is that why I am here replying to posts at 4AM because I don't care about Racetronix customers? Looking at your posts one must ask if it is possible within reason for Racetronix to help you diagnose your problem remotely assuming it is injector related? Perhaps you have something mechanical or electrical that is faulty in your car? We could burn up days dealing with this. It would be much easier to pull the injectors and have us double check them on our flowbench to rule out any problems. I must emphasize that injectors are one of the most reliable and repeatable items on your car so the likelihood of having one defective injector never mind a complete set is highly unlikely. You state that other people have had tuning problems with these injectors. This is true but the same goes for pretty much every other Delphi, Bosch and Siemens injector out there which some newbie DIY tuner has had to deal with. We have customers who can get 85lb/hr injectors to run silky smooth in almost any vehicle and then we have others who have difficulty tuning a stock injector with a mild cam upgrade. We do our best to guide the customer as an injector supplier but there are limits to what can be done without having the car and / or the injectors at our facility. I think it is fair to say that any HP car owner that takes it upon himself to tune their own vehicle without any formal training or experience should expect a steep learning curve esp with the new OBD2/+ PCM's. Some people seem to luck out and everything appears to fall into place for them but upon closer inspection you will find that they too did their homework and put in the time. A well performing HP car does not happen by accident.

I would appreciate it if you would reserve judgment on the injectors. Take the time to become more knowledgeable tuning and keep asking good questions.
If Racetronix can be of any further assistance please let us know.

Jack
Racetronix

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

ok maybe i was just frustrated at the post. you did send that email, i dont know if it was before or after iposted this but you did send it and i thank you. i was upset when i put this up so maybe i said some things i shouldnt have. sorry if i did

i have a great grasp on my tuning. i have sent my logs and files to many people and they see nothign wrong with the tune. with the factory injectors in the car the car runs great. with the proper tables modified, i cannot get these injectors to run right. i have been trying to tune out these problems for about 2 months. i know more than most people on here know about injectors and pulse widths and proportional fueling. hp tuners is gonna take a look at my logs and stuff. ken have been great in helping me the past few days. i have got responses from him and has been good information, however this is stuff i have done so it hasnt helped. so i take back what i said about them, ken has been helping a lot.

im going to try some more stuff tonight to see if it gets any better. i will post up if that helps at all

once again, thanks for your help and referring me to people. sorry if my post sounded that bad. but seeing i have tried everything i and most others know, its pretty frustrating having somethign not work. but trust me i have done TONS of research and asking around about all this, and all the experts are stumped as well.

Tomcat

Sound like a lack of tuning experince to me , I have done a lot of customer cars with these injectors no problems BUT it is not just a matter of plugging in a IFR tabel , they have a different response and the whole tune needs to be cleaned up with a lot of finesse.

I assume you have a good wideband and are doing lots of logging of commanded AFR to actual AFR , and changing your maf/ve table to suit as well.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

i wish everyone would quit saying lack of tuning experience, i have put other injectors in the car before and i have been reading and reading and anylizing and testing prob 30 different tunes and logs with these injectors. if any of you all know information please take the time to help instead of say i dont knwo what im doing, afterall that is what this board is for and my whole reason of ALL my posts, to get help. i have a new post going right about about this, ken at hp tuners told me some thigns that may be causing the problems. id like to know what you change. i dont change the ifr table and thats it, i changed the proportional fueling as well. everyone that has seen my tune thinks it looks good and i shouldnt have any issues. ve tables are all set, im in sd so i dont have the maf to worry about.

id like to know what you have done tuning for those injectors. i have the car fairly good idle now. thats my only issue i have ever had, idle. i can get it to idle but the trims are too low for my liking at -10 or so. i have been asking questions thinking maybe i left somethign out in the tune and noone has said i needed to do anything else so if there is something else please help by commenting in a way that will help me with my injectors instead of just saying im inexperienced, i have been looking for help all along and i would REALLY appreciate it if you could help me tomcat if you have no issues with you cars, thanks

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

so this requires the whole tune to be cleaned up, and with this different response what all needs to be changed?

the IFR tables are set to what they should be at and should not be touched from there.

the idle proportional numbers were too high, i decreased these and then increased slowly until i got the idle decent.

the proportional idle multipliers were changed to check out response change and since they are multipliers the conditions were amplified so i stuck to just changing the tables actual value.

the only other thing i can think of changing is the minimum pulse width values and what not. however, the computer compensates by adjsuting the pulse width. my part throttle seems to be fine and numbers are great, its just lower kpa values where there is not as much fuel being rushed over the injectors. below 30kpa of MAP seems to be the point where problems begin. i tried to make the injectors rich, putting inthe 3 bar reading and the oscillation was how it was before. so im thinking the fuel charge at idle isnt enough to oscillate. plus, sicne the proportional tables mess with pulse width i feel that is the only one in need of change and only at idle, if they are too high they saturate the sensors and will cause them to rail as ken at hp tuners said.

i believe im on the right path and am changing the appropriate tables. if not please let me know. plus if the numbers are too high they can cause overcorrection and idle stumble so i have been trying to find a happy area in between there.

WS6FirebirdTA00

iTrader: (33)

racetronix, here is what ken at hp tuners told me, i dont know if this means anything to you but here is what he said


There is however another method to combat the minimum pulse width problem.

There is a table for the minimum pulse width. It modifies the injector timing to deliver the same fuel. This requires some information from the injector manufacturer. Then lots of testing to verify they are not misfiring.