robertbartsch

...considering the purchase of LS1Edit. I downloaded the user manaul from CARPUTING and it is GARBAGE!

...has anyone written a "how to" manual that would help users with tuning issues?

ls1290

iTrader: (20)

Yep, it totally sucks. On the LS1Edit mail list I have repeatedly, along with other, asked to have the doc improved. Having the doc desciption match the widget label is useless <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="gr_sad.gif" />

Doc99SShome

That is what this forum is all about,,,"tuning issues".

The instruction manual for LS1Edit is what it should be, it will tell you how to use LS1Edit, how to hook it up to read the PCM file and to write the the PCM & how to use the editting features. Since there is seemingly an infinite number of tuning issues, you can not expect the authors of LS1Edit to put in writing all that stuff.

To me, its just common sense, If I'm lean at WOT, I should find a table which provides fuel at WOT and add more fuel. If I have alot of KR, I have bad fuel or I'm too lean, or some other thing. Its time to ATAP to help define the problem and work with fueling and timing.

If you have a tuning issue, simply post on this board. You should get good help here.

robertbartsch

...be reasonable...this product is high priced and the user manual is a bad joke...I'm not the only one who has made this point.

...what may seem totally logical to you is extremely baffeling to most. I appreciate the comment on our board which I have used to both give and receive advice for more than one year.

...are you saying that Carputing could not improve their product by including a chapter or two on how to tune? After all, I thought this is what their product is designed to do?

ChrisB

The problem with trying to explain how to tune is that there are many different goals - and depending on what your goals are the strategies will be different (as they will be depending on what you have access to - dyno, wideband, etc.)

LS1Edit is marketed as a tool to allow you to edit your pcm - not as a tool that "tunes" your car. It's a subtle distinction, but a valid one nonetheless - it allows you the ability to do many thing, what you do with those things is your choice.

you are definitely not the only one who would like more information from carputing - but I don't think it will happen - for the reasons I listed above - and I don't fault them for it.

That said, sit back and check out this forum - there is more than enough information out there to help you learn that you really wouldn't need a manual anyway.


Chris

robertbartsch

Are you joking?

You said the LS1Edit is marketed as a tool to allow you to "edit your PCM" and not as a tool to allow you to "tune your car"!!!!

The terms "edit the PCM" and "tune your car" are synonomous. It is sort of like saying caviar is only for dinning and not for eating...you can call it what you want, but I submit that people buy LS1Edit to allow them to tune their cars by editing their PCMs.

After reading Carputing's so-called manual, I don't think most could tune their cars or edit their PCMs.

There is no excuse for bad documentation, especially for a product that is high priced.

If Carputing is unable to prepare a user document they should post a request on this board for someone to prepare a few chapters on "tuning their cars" in exchange for monetary consideration. Say...the best narrative submitted to Carputing will receive a $2K award....

...No; I would not consider paying the writer of the narrative for Carputing's benefit!!!!

Tom99SS

iTrader: (2)

I have to agree with Robert. The reason I have not bought ls1edit is the fact that the user manual is so vague. If they just had examples that would be a starting point. I know every car is different, but a "How To" section with examples on which tables to change and what effects the changes will cause would be a step in the right direction for this "User Manual". At least it would give the user a starting point.

- Tom

robertbartsch

So ChrisB:
Lets submit the suggested solution to CarPuting of a contest to prepare a few chapters on how to use LS1Edit to tune your car (or "modify your PCM," if you prefer) I think this should benfit all users...

I assume that since you are a forum director that your correspondence to the company would receive more weight than mine....

Thanx...

Camaroholic

iTrader: (1)

While I too agree that the documentation can be pretty lousy (I too have faced the 'what the hell does that mean' when looking at a table) - I agree with Chris that it's 'out of scope' for Carputing to tell you how to tune your car.

For example, some people take the approach "let's advance it 'till it knocks, and back it out two degrees". Say Carputing put that in their manual as a 'set in stone' process. Then when someone blows up their motor, they claim "but I was following the instructions". See what I mean? A lot of liability issues there. So I can understand why they chose the "define" approach, but not a "how-to" approach. The how-to is left up to reading the message board here and the mailing list at http://www.ls1edit.com

I do wish their define was a little clearer on some stuff, tho. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

-Andrew

Doc99SSx

Robert, I agree with you to a point, and that point is what camaroholic stated, the liability issue.

This is a big problem. I can see that due to liability that LS1Edit instructions should be limited to how to use the software, editing features, and a bit on if you want to richen the WOT AFR, you increase the value in such & such table.

What I could use is an explaination what each table does and how it effects performance or drivibility, but not precisely what to do in a specific case. For example: what is the low octane table for, when & how does it come into play, how to you get back to using the high octane table??? Stuff like that.

ChrisB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by robertbartsch:
<strong> Are you joking?

You said the LS1Edit is marketed as a tool to allow you to "edit your PCM" and not as a tool to allow you to "tune your car"!!!

The terms "edit the PCM" and "tune your car" are synonomous. It is sort of like saying caviar is only for dinning and not for eating...you can call it what you want, but I submit that people buy LS1Edit to allow them to tune their cars by editing their PCMs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"></strong>

Nevertheless, there is a distinction - here are a couple of analogies:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I go to buy a car - the owners manual tells me how to operate the vehicle, but it doesn't teach me how to drive</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I purchase a gun - the owners manual tells me how to operate it, but not all the mechanics and techniques behind shooting</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I buy Visual Basic from Microsoft - it documents it's features, but it doesn't teach me how to program</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
After reading Carputing's so-called manual, I don't think most could tune their cars or edit their PCMs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

Agreed, there is not enough information in there to tune your pcm, especially if you have no background knowledge - but then I don't think that's what it is intended for.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
If Carputing is unable to prepare a user document they should post a request on this board for someone to prepare a few chapters on "tuning their cars" in exchange for monetary consideration. Say...the best narrative submitted to Carputing will receive a $2K award....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

There are plenty of sites out there that offer how-to's, etc. as it is. The next issue in your scenario would become how does one determine which is the correct way, who is an expert, etc.?

And finally, what's the incentive for carputing? They can obviously sell the product as it is now at the current price point - and just consider the amount of support they would have to provide if they attempted to teach people how to tune as opposed to how to operate their software.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong>
...No; I would not consider paying the writer of the narrative for Carputing's benefit!!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nor should you - but by the same token why, if they are aleady satisfied with their sales volume/price point, spend additional money for your benefit? (posing this question from a hypothetical standpoint).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">So ChrisB:
Lets submit the suggested solution to CarPuting of a contest to prepare a few chapters on how to use LS1Edit to tune your car (or "modify your PCM," if you prefer) I think this should benfit all users...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">

I have no problem asking for that, though I doubt it will do any good (and Ken rarely even responds to my other emails, so I doubt he would bother with this one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Were I them I wouldn't want to take on this responsibility though - the liability issue is also another good point.


Chris

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: ChrisB ]</small>

Lady Redhawk

iTrader: (6)

I agree with Chris completely! Carputing has put out an amazing product. With their program you are able to read your pcm and change it if you want. Before I bought LS1edit I read everything I could on tuning. I studied for over 6 months making notes and talking with experts. I wouldn’t change anything in my pcm until I understood as much as I could about all the possible ramifications of the change.

If I have learned anything at all it is this: There are about as many different ideas of how to tune your car as there are tuners out there. There are a few things that most everyone agrees on but not very many. I don’t believe it is Carputing’s place to add their views to this as well.

There are a few things that could be added though, such as subtracting values in the injector flow rate table, or adding values in the MAF table will richen you up. Those are facts, not opinions in tuning. Deciding which one to use is up to the tuner. Carputing has to leave the tuning decisions to the tuner.

<small>[ February 17, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: Lady Redhawk ]</small>

robertbartsch

On the liability issue;

1. Does SLP face potential liability issues when you buy a set of their headers and install them and then your car runs rich and blows the O2 sensors?

2. Does Lunati face liability issues when you buy a cam from them, install it 180 degrees out-of-phase and blow the valves and pistons?

3. Does GM Performance Parts face liability issues when you buy a iron-block Gen III from them and drop it on your toe?

4. Does NOS face liability issues when you give your motor a 200HP shot and it burns pistons and valves?

...the point is this: you can be sued by anyone for anything; (trust me on this one - I'm a CPA and we are sued a lot) however, it does not mean the plantiffs will prevail.

Carputing should provide a narrative for users on tuning. They should use all the cautionary language about people having different tuning objectives along with the current narrative about using caution, you are on your own and damaging your PCM/motor from stupid actions is not their problem....this stuff is already there so users are on notice now...

...the alternative is for us to prepare a reference manual for our users.

This may not be a bad idea if they fail to act.

2001-TAWS6

This reply is not a flame but just a different point of view. Consumers will never get more than what they ask for but I don't think in this case that it's Carputing's niche to provide the type of information we are looking for at this time.

Questions 1-4 are yes if there is a design defect or instructions that result in a gross failure to account for a safety or application concerns. If you dropped that Gen III because the instructions didn't say purchase an engine stand with these specs and secure it accorndingly. Now you know why there are limited instructions with a Create Motor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

It does not matter if a plaintiff will prevail. A competitor can put you out of business with a simple lawsuit if you can not cover the attorney fees.

You are correct there is a market for a tuning book. If you invest your money and time, get it published, you will make a mint. This is why there are some many training books in the XXXX for Dummies Series. Instructions need to be written for the lowest common denominator, but what is the lowest level of understanding for custom tuning a $25-$45K LS1/LSS6 car? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Carputing has attacked the part of the problem where they have their most experience and where they enjoy working. They are good at reverse engineering the PCM and creating a tool to manipulate it. So they have given us Flash RAM Reader/Programmer that uses GM's coding language to understand and translate basic commands. They give the user the basic understanding of what GM intended to use the tables and values for and how to use the features of the sofware to edit things efficiently. They too must walk a fine line with GM when discussing how and why some things are handled in a specific manner in the PCM.

The knowledge we all want comes from years of experience. It comes from being a custom tuner and surviving the cars that you blew up and the lawsuits that followed. It comes from the success of your shop cars and your customers' cars. It certainly does not come with the purchase of a $550 programing tool when those very custom tuners are charging $450-$550 for a one time tune.

The mailing list is an attempt to gather the enduser questions and results in a manner that we can all use. You are correct that there would be a significant value to all the LS1-Edit users to organize this information in a readable and searchable format. Someone has to have a lot of time to get that task done though and they need to enjoy working in MS Word or with Adobe Acrobat. Are there any takers??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

Ramble mode off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />
Rick

FrankSS

iTrader: (18)

Im in the same boat as lady redbird. Ive had edit for I think 6 months, and Ive been reading up as much as I can to see how to work this thing. And after reading through all of the LS1 Edit emails that you get for owning the program, you start to pick up on how to do all of this stuff. Plus they have an archive that you can go to and find a topic that you are having issues with, and find out how resolve it. Plus if you are looking at it from a money point of view, if you have a pro-tuner tune your car once, you are out say $500 even when you add new parts or want to change your A/F ratio because you are running richer or leaner than you want to be. So you buy edit for the $550, then in the long run you are much money ahead. And like the other guys said and I said, you have to read posts like these to pick up on how to tune your car(edit your PCM). Also, if you shouldnt expect the guys at Carputing to put their neck out and tell you how to tune your car. You should learn yourself. Like the instructions say "Edit at your own risk!!!"

Team ZR-1

You can buy any tool if it was a PCM scanner, a scope, multi meter, timing light, etc and they tell you how to use the functions of the tool but does not teach you how the functions your using the tool on functions best so you cannot blame LS1edit for not teaching you how todays engines function for that is up to you to learn before making changes to a engine function.

For Carputing giving examples would be good but then those unwilling to go learn about engine functions would only use as a crutch that the example is to be used across the board when even in forums such as here people go drill holes in their throttle body and then everyone goes and does it when it may be OK for an F-body but a NoNo for a Corvette. So if people cannot explain it in detail here then how can LS1edit do it.

On the other side of the coin, its not that the user document does not give examples on how to tune, it is what the product functions are.
Many functions are barely defined and in some cases not defined at all or new functions are added and no update to the user manual.

Also it would be better if it at least mentioned if a function is for a A4, MN6 trannie or both or is for a F-body, truck or a Corvette.
I have seen people with a Corvette tuning for a EGR when it has none, so in many cases, the end user needs to take the effort and learn todays engine functions and then go tune.

miner_49

I have to disagree with some of you. The documentation could be better without increasing the liability. I think most of us would be happy if they had gone into some more detail about what some of the tables are and what they are used for. They don't have to say "change this for better performance". To cover their butts, all they have to say is change these tables at your own risk. Damage to your car is possible.

I would normally never buy a product if the documentation is as poor as the one with LS1Edit is. But unfortunately they are the only game in town at the moment.

Texas Terminator

those of you who think that carputing should provide a manual more in depth than the one they provide are on freaking crack!! let me really put this in perspective for you.

think of it as a tool (which it is) to work on your vehicle, just like wrenches, screwdrivers, etc., do they come with a manual telling you how to build a 5 second alcohol funny car engine? no. those of us who have worked on non-fuel injected engines in the past should agree on this one.

Big Stick

Ummm...I'm pretty sure I'm not on crack and I believe they could provide better documentation. Nobody's suggesting they give tuning tips and advice, just a more in depth explanation on how to use the functions of their product. Like the example given...To decrease fuel (lean out) at WOT, decrease the number in this table... blah, blah, blah, and so on. It doesn't make sense to me that in order to decipher a commercial product you have to turn to bulletin boards like this one. Our discussions should be about tuning tips and advice not about LS1edit tutorials.

Chicago Z06

Look guys, the product is there for everyone to have access to.. personally i do not think everyone should.. i mean look at these posts.. you can tell most everyone on this list and all the others have very basic knowledge of the internal combustion engine as a whole and have no business having access to a program that can blow your car up because you don't understand fully what you are doing. the best bet is to learn from someone who does... and even then finding someone who really does is a toss up.. there are a lot of "professional" tuners out there i would not let within 50 feet of my car but that is a whole other topic. if you don't understand it learn about it before you screw it up.. if you do know about fuel injection adn the basic difference bwetween open and closed loop then your one step ahead and it is all in learning what affects what in our ECM's and program accordingly. but looking for a detailed instruction book will not solve your problems EVERY cam out there needs something a little different.. headers, heads trns type, gearing all affect how your car is programed even where you live and your altitude affects programming.. there are way to many variables.. if you want to know how to use it take an auto class at your local community colledge... LEARN soemthing rather than taking the internet route and listening to what someone tells you and you have no idea if they are off base or what.. bottom line do your homework... crawl before you walk and you will be fine.. the lists can help they do get convoluted with topics and opinions but there again you have to understand what your working on.. remember this 90% of the auto technicians out there do NOT have this capability let alone some colledge kid who spent his tuition and student loans on car parts who is majoring in accouting. (nothing wrong with accoutants but hopefully you get the point) you don't get a degree in computer sciences while studying accounting... granted todays technology makes it easier for all of us to have more power unlike the old days when you had to figure it out on your own... not open a magazine or log onto the internet and have access to proven combinations. this my 02

Wes