how to tune for 30#injectors
10-26-2006, 07:36 PM
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how to tune for 30#injectors can someone show me how to tune for the ford 30# injectors (red top) with hp tuners. my friend told me one way and another told me diffrent.
10-27-2006, 11:01 AM
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I did that and im still rich on decel, i've had to modify minimum pulse width to about 1.15ms and that is helping a little bit.
The numbers the excel file spit out didn't match up exactly in HPT.
HPT increments in a certain way such that the numbers you put in are bumped up or down to match what HPT wants. That may have affected things I suppose.
I used
43.5 - Injector Rated Fuel Pressure
58 - Fuel rail pressure (I know I should measure it but I don't want to buy another gague)
30 - Injector rated flow rate.
I was a bit rich all over, especially on decel in the low MAP areas.
I've tried knocking up the IFR table by .01 increments and its helping all over except the decel/low MAP areas.
I also reduced the injector offsets in the 0-20 kPa range by 10%
I can still never see less than 2.0 min pulse width in the scaner.
Decel is hovering around 11.5 on average and im in open loop SD tuning mode, hoping it goes away when I turn closed loop back on.
The numbers the excel file spit out didn't match up exactly in HPT.
HPT increments in a certain way such that the numbers you put in are bumped up or down to match what HPT wants. That may have affected things I suppose.
I used
43.5 - Injector Rated Fuel Pressure
58 - Fuel rail pressure (I know I should measure it but I don't want to buy another gague)
30 - Injector rated flow rate.
I was a bit rich all over, especially on decel in the low MAP areas.
I've tried knocking up the IFR table by .01 increments and its helping all over except the decel/low MAP areas.
I also reduced the injector offsets in the 0-20 kPa range by 10%
I can still never see less than 2.0 min pulse width in the scaner.
Decel is hovering around 11.5 on average and im in open loop SD tuning mode, hoping it goes away when I turn closed loop back on.
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10-27-2006, 12:52 PM
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I'm still trying to figure this out, looking at the definitions from HPT..
Short Pulse Limit: Injector Pulses shorter than this will be increased by the amount specified in Short Pulse Adder.
Short Pulse Adder: Adder to pulses shorter than Short Pulse Limit.
Minimum Injector PW: Minimum allowed Injector Pulse Width (after Short Pulse adder has been added if necessary).
Default Injector PW: Default Pulse width used when Injector Pulse Width is less than Minimum Injector PW.
So it almost seems your final actual minimum PW flow chart looks like
IF (commanded minimum < short pulse limit)
{ actual PW = commanded minimum + short pulse adder }
And Default Injector PW almost looks like a safety blanket in case you set your Minimum PW table too low. So from what I read, you would have to reduce both tables to affect your Min PW?..
Wouldn't you therefore want to reduce your short pulse limit proportionally with the increase in flow rate of the new injectors. Or is that all handled by the calculations of the PCM based on the IFR table?
Sorry, ive searched alot on this and spent some good time logging and flashing trying to get decel richness in line and im not quite there yet.
All of the things ive found searching only refer to MinPW and often only for the 42#ers
Short Pulse Limit: Injector Pulses shorter than this will be increased by the amount specified in Short Pulse Adder.
Short Pulse Adder: Adder to pulses shorter than Short Pulse Limit.
Minimum Injector PW: Minimum allowed Injector Pulse Width (after Short Pulse adder has been added if necessary).
Default Injector PW: Default Pulse width used when Injector Pulse Width is less than Minimum Injector PW.
So it almost seems your final actual minimum PW flow chart looks like
IF (commanded minimum < short pulse limit)
{ actual PW = commanded minimum + short pulse adder }
And Default Injector PW almost looks like a safety blanket in case you set your Minimum PW table too low. So from what I read, you would have to reduce both tables to affect your Min PW?..
Wouldn't you therefore want to reduce your short pulse limit proportionally with the increase in flow rate of the new injectors. Or is that all handled by the calculations of the PCM based on the IFR table?
Sorry, ive searched alot on this and spent some good time logging and flashing trying to get decel richness in line and im not quite there yet.
All of the things ive found searching only refer to MinPW and often only for the 42#ers
10-27-2006, 02:06 PM
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I haven't even started to look for this problem in mine. If I had it though, I'd first look at my Inj. Flow Rate table. Since my 30lb SVO's flow about 20% more than the stockers, I'd make the following changes given fuel pressure hasn't (shouldn't have) changed...
Small Pulse Limit/Threshold ~ (-20%) = 3.2
Small Pulse Adder/Adjust ~ (-20% for entire table and zero out anything greater than 2.918ms)
Not so sure about...
Min. Inj. PW ~ (-20% for entire table???)
Default Inj. PW ~ (-20% for entire table???)
I would think these have to do with injector performance. Maybe someone @ SVO Tech. Support knows where the limitations of the injectors lie for a minimum pulse width?
I don't know if this is right/wrong/indifferent. But, that's what my gut would tell me to do. It seems logical considering what we're changing is simply how long the injector stays open. What I don't get is why looking at the GM 26lb vs. 28lb injector tables, they increased the adder going from 26 to 28lbers and left all else alone (aside from IFR).
Small Pulse Limit/Threshold ~ (-20%) = 3.2
Small Pulse Adder/Adjust ~ (-20% for entire table and zero out anything greater than 2.918ms)
Not so sure about...
Min. Inj. PW ~ (-20% for entire table???)
Default Inj. PW ~ (-20% for entire table???)
I would think these have to do with injector performance. Maybe someone @ SVO Tech. Support knows where the limitations of the injectors lie for a minimum pulse width?
I don't know if this is right/wrong/indifferent. But, that's what my gut would tell me to do. It seems logical considering what we're changing is simply how long the injector stays open. What I don't get is why looking at the GM 26lb vs. 28lb injector tables, they increased the adder going from 26 to 28lbers and left all else alone (aside from IFR).
Last edited by SSpdDmon; 10-27-2006 at 02:17 PM.
10-27-2006, 02:23 PM
#10
short pulse limitation is a physical aspect. of course changes have to be accomodated in the PCM, but you can't just 'tell it' to be shorter because you'd like it to be that way, that's why injector sizing has to be done carefully not only for WOT conditions, but also for idle.
10-27-2006, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by RedHardSupra
short pulse limitation is a physical aspect. of course changes have to be accomodated in the PCM, but you can't just 'tell it' to be shorter because you'd like it to be that way, that's why injector sizing has to be done carefully not only for WOT conditions, but also for idle.
10-27-2006, 02:45 PM
#12
use my calculator to find the right values:
this is for mototron 60s on a LS2 with 7.5psi boosted setup with a huge cam (thus notice 30% VE at idle)
top row had idle and wot settings with fuel pressure at 3bar. idle pulse width was about 2.48ms (nice) but wot was a bit too close to max for comfort.
so we up the fuel pressure so the wot has more 'headroom.' (the lower row of pics):
now the fuel pressure is set to whatever it would make 60s rated at 43.5psi flow 63.95lb/hr (this exercise is left to the reader
)
the wot is safer now, but the idle pulse width went down to 2.33ms. if the minimum pulse width is 2.4, then it's gonna dump more fuel than you need, making it idle rich. so the solution is to either up the rpms so the VE climbs a little (big cams' VE ramps up quickly), or to get injectors with lower minimal pulse width.
as you see, this setup is using the entire range of the injectors, from idle to wot, which is nice, but it gives us no room to expand. this is why i love my calculator, it's very useful, once you start hitting the clone button and creating multiple scenarios. get it, learn it, love it.
this is for mototron 60s on a LS2 with 7.5psi boosted setup with a huge cam (thus notice 30% VE at idle)
top row had idle and wot settings with fuel pressure at 3bar. idle pulse width was about 2.48ms (nice) but wot was a bit too close to max for comfort.
so we up the fuel pressure so the wot has more 'headroom.' (the lower row of pics):
now the fuel pressure is set to whatever it would make 60s rated at 43.5psi flow 63.95lb/hr (this exercise is left to the reader
)the wot is safer now, but the idle pulse width went down to 2.33ms. if the minimum pulse width is 2.4, then it's gonna dump more fuel than you need, making it idle rich. so the solution is to either up the rpms so the VE climbs a little (big cams' VE ramps up quickly), or to get injectors with lower minimal pulse width.
as you see, this setup is using the entire range of the injectors, from idle to wot, which is nice, but it gives us no room to expand. this is why i love my calculator, it's very useful, once you start hitting the clone button and creating multiple scenarios. get it, learn it, love it.
10-27-2006, 04:17 PM
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RHS man, you rock.
I've read ALOT of your tuning posts, and most of your site.
Thanks for all the intel you give.
I found this calculator a while ago, and I'm really trying to understand how to use it, but maybe b/c im so new to the terminology and tuning in general, I can't figure out what exactly is supposed to be what with the app.
This may be because of my ignorance, but I can't determine what all the fields are asking for and what numbers they are spitting out.
Granted I am thinking in terms of my specific tuning package HPT, so I'm thinking it is supposed to be spitting out numbers for tables, but I don't think that's what its meant to do.
I'll look it over and over some more and see if I can figure it out.
example
Is IFR the flow rating in general for the Injectors, or is that taken from the IFR table?
Is VE the value from your VE table or another calculation of VE?
ETC..
I don't mean for this to be a "please write a help manual for your app" but thats what I can't figure out.
As it stands, I have tweaked IFR, MPW and Offset values in the idle areas and still can't get above 12.0 AFR in decel, this is in OL and DFCO off, although these aren't decel events where I would typically see DFCO kicking in.
Sorry to be confusing.
DJ
I've read ALOT of your tuning posts, and most of your site.
Thanks for all the intel you give.
I found this calculator a while ago, and I'm really trying to understand how to use it, but maybe b/c im so new to the terminology and tuning in general, I can't figure out what exactly is supposed to be what with the app.
This may be because of my ignorance, but I can't determine what all the fields are asking for and what numbers they are spitting out.
Granted I am thinking in terms of my specific tuning package HPT, so I'm thinking it is supposed to be spitting out numbers for tables, but I don't think that's what its meant to do.
I'll look it over and over some more and see if I can figure it out.
example
Is IFR the flow rating in general for the Injectors, or is that taken from the IFR table?
Is VE the value from your VE table or another calculation of VE?
ETC..
I don't mean for this to be a "please write a help manual for your app" but thats what I can't figure out.
As it stands, I have tweaked IFR, MPW and Offset values in the idle areas and still can't get above 12.0 AFR in decel, this is in OL and DFCO off, although these aren't decel events where I would typically see DFCO kicking in.
Sorry to be confusing.
DJ
10-27-2006, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by foff667
uh RHS worked with TAQuickness to make that one EFIlive friendly as well lol
nice fact tho
10-27-2006, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by RedHardSupra
use my calculator to find the right values:
this is for mototron 60s on a LS2 with 7.5psi boosted setup with a huge cam (thus notice 30% VE at idle)
top row had idle and wot settings with fuel pressure at 3bar. idle pulse width was about 2.48ms (nice) but wot was a bit too close to max for comfort.
so we up the fuel pressure so the wot has more 'headroom.' (the lower row of pics):
now the fuel pressure is set to whatever it would make 60s rated at 43.5psi flow 63.95lb/hr (this exercise is left to the reader )
the wot is safer now, but the idle pulse width went down to 2.33ms. if the minimum pulse width is 2.4, then it's gonna dump more fuel than you need, making it idle rich. so the solution is to either up the rpms so the VE climbs a little (big cams' VE ramps up quickly), or to get injectors with lower minimal pulse width.
as you see, this setup is using the entire range of the injectors, from idle to wot, which is nice, but it gives us no room to expand. this is why i love my calculator, it's very useful, once you start hitting the clone button and creating multiple scenarios. get it, learn it, love it.
this is for mototron 60s on a LS2 with 7.5psi boosted setup with a huge cam (thus notice 30% VE at idle)
top row had idle and wot settings with fuel pressure at 3bar. idle pulse width was about 2.48ms (nice) but wot was a bit too close to max for comfort.
so we up the fuel pressure so the wot has more 'headroom.' (the lower row of pics):
now the fuel pressure is set to whatever it would make 60s rated at 43.5psi flow 63.95lb/hr (this exercise is left to the reader
)the wot is safer now, but the idle pulse width went down to 2.33ms. if the minimum pulse width is 2.4, then it's gonna dump more fuel than you need, making it idle rich. so the solution is to either up the rpms so the VE climbs a little (big cams' VE ramps up quickly), or to get injectors with lower minimal pulse width.
as you see, this setup is using the entire range of the injectors, from idle to wot, which is nice, but it gives us no room to expand. this is why i love my calculator, it's very useful, once you start hitting the clone button and creating multiple scenarios. get it, learn it, love it.
10-27-2006, 09:37 PM
#16
http://redhardsupra.blogspot.com/200...se-widths.html
v2 coming soon, it has helpers for IFR (so you can play with fuel pressure and see resulting changes all the way to the pulse width!), displacement, and other goodies
v2 coming soon, it has helpers for IFR (so you can play with fuel pressure and see resulting changes all the way to the pulse width!), displacement, and other goodies
11-21-2006, 02:43 PM
#19
You may also have to lower the min fuel miligrams in transient fueling. I went from .041 down to .036 and it was too much, so i eventaully settled on .038. A little bit goes a long way here. And dont for get that youre dealing in thousandths, not hundreths.
