demonpixel

iTrader: (19)

hey guys, i'm in the middle of building an ls1 for a fourth gen camaro right now but i've also got a 72 formula. even though i've had it for three years or so, i am STILL new to pontiacs.

the engine shop, heads up racing, in michigan, built the engine for the previous owner and lied about what the internals were, so i really have no idea what's in there. so heads up, if you're reading this, why don't you come clean? it kills me that i don't know what the proper specs are.

ANYWAY, I am struggling with a decision to either do another LSx build and replace the 400 that's in it, or keep the engine Pontiac. The aftermarket for Pontiacs seems minimal, for example, where are people getting say 6x-4 heads from? while the LS aftermarket, obviously, is huge. How do you guys find the proper parts for these second gens and do it with a reasonable budget? Edlebrock Pontiac heads are 2 grand and aren't even D-port. wth

Wanted a second gen firebird since i was a kid but this is getting to be a hassle...please help me become a Pontiac fan!

NeedaV8foundation

iTrader: (4)

my dad and i restored our 73' 455 H.O. which is a one of one car. if it has the stock block in it then i would leave it, just take it out have it honed and maybe new rings, or just rotating assembly that is stock specs. in our engine it had 60,xxx miles, however from sitting for so long it needed alot of new stuff, in the end we ended up replacing springs, rockers, pushrods, had it honed, new pistons and connecting rods. we also took the heads to a machine shop and had them cleaned and polished. if you arnt keeping to factory then id say order a pontiac 383 stroker or something like that, the old school pontiac blocks are STOUT blocks, most 350+ blocks are four bolt mains and are designed to go through hell and back. I wouldnt waste my time with a engine that i had no idea about and no idea about the internals, id say sell it and start from scratch, just my .02. heres a picture of the car...

JohnnyBs98WS6Rag

iTrader: (1)

Kinda depends on what you want to end up with. If you want a nice original matching numbers Formula that drives like a '72, then you need to stay w/ the original motor and build on it. Most of the OEM heads have long been picked-over, good luck finding them. Edlebrock isn't the only mfr making new aftermarket heads / parts for Pontiac engines. But even then, by the time you locate a good set of original heads, ship them home, clean them up, machine them and load them w/ new valves and springs, that $2000 from Edlebrock for better flowing alum heads pre-assembled will seem like a good deal.

The only thing "cheap" to build today in the vintage Musclecar world are Chevy's and Mustangs. Believe me, the Buick, Olds and AMC guys feel your pain.

If you are looking for a resto-mod car w/ modern amenities, go w/ a LSx build, T56, 9", 4-link rear etc. LOTS of options there.

demonpixel

iTrader: (19)

Thanks for the responses guys. I just can't justify buying heads for that much when I can get a complete LQ4 for almost half of that, with low miles no less. I mentioned this to some Pontiac guys and barely made it out of there alive! Some DIE HARD fans in the Poncho community.

I'll letcha know how the LQ4 build goes.

IRONFIST

Nothin wrong with 6X-4 heads man, I have a set of ported ones on my Poncho. The thing runs on regular too...

brynnda

iTrader: (5)

455 SD!!! cant go wrong there!!!

IRONFIST

You didn't mention what heads you have on the car right now? Those and the intake you should be able to tell off the bat? Headers too?
So do you know the displacement of your car?
As far as heads, pick those based on your goals. 6x-4's are great if you want low compression, factory iron heads that flow fairly well. There are aftermarket D port ..heads, Edelbrocks heads too I'd go with those for performance.
Before you pick cylinder heads though, you need to find your displacement? Now I know you said "the 400 thats in there" but a lot of performance shops will throw a stroker crank in the 400 block... do you know if this was done?

demonpixel

iTrader: (19)

The intake is stock. I have 7K3 heads on it right now. I'm convinced the valve stems are leaking as I am dropping quarts of oil every 50 miles, I see no leaks under the car, and I smoke some at startup and at idle.

I do NOT know the displacement of the car, and I don't know if it's stroked or not. Let me give you the specs of what the engine shop gave me, and then I'll tell you why this shop Heads Up Racing is bullshitting.

This is what the previous owner's Heads Up invoice says:

• 8 pistons TRW 11:1 +030
• 8 Seal Power rings
• New 1.65 Roller Rockers
• New Rod bolts ARP 3/8
• Chrome Moly Push Rods 5/16
• New Converter 2800 Stall
• Bore and hone Block +.030
• Recon Rod w/new bolts
• Ported 7K3 Cylinder Heads and Intake
• Surface heads + R-line 60 (no idea what that means)
• 5 angle Comp Valve Job
• Balance Complete Rotating Assy.
• Build Engine and Install in Car

Here's the build sheet:



Here is the response I got from the shop when I asked them what kind of cam it was and if the pistons were dome or flattop:

HERE IS YOUR ANSWER THIS MOTOR WAS BUILT 6 YEARS AGO, AS OF DEPOSIT 03-25-2000. I GAVE THE MAN I BUILT THE MOTOR FOR, ALL THE SPEC SHEETS ON EVERYTHING!!!!!!! THE 11 TO 1 TRW IS COMPRESSION & MAKE OF PISTONS. IF YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MOTORS, THAT IS A FORDGED PISTON +.030 DIA. THE CAM IS A HYD. CAM & LIFTERS .540 LIFT .230 DURATION AT .050. IF YOU NEED ANY MORE INFO., BRING IT BY MY SHOP AND I WILL TAKE IT APART AND FIND OUT EVERYTHING IN THE MOTOR YOU WANT TO KNOW. AGAIN, SHOP-586-461-0099 SHOP FAX-586-461-0059.
BRUCE KIMMEN
HEADS UP RACING


now here's my issue...how in the hell you can get 11:1 compression with 7K3 heads that run 96cc stock, no mention of a stroked crank, and FLATTOP pistons?? YES they are FLAT, I pulled the head and checked. I emailed Heads Up Racing asking them this months ago and still haven't heard back.

I'm assuming the crank has stock specs, not stroked, because it probably would be mentioned on the invoice for the engine build since all of the other **** is. I think I have stock rods also. Anyway, with this confusing information, I'm not sure I even believe that the cam is what they say it is. There's no telling WHAT they put in there.

(By the way, before anyone starts flamin me for paying that much money on the invoice to have the engine stuff done, the previous owner did that, not me.)

t_raven

iTrader: (12)

I'm trying to decide the same thing for my 67 firebird. I've got a 00 ls1/t56 that i bought for $4k. It would cost me almost that much just to put a t56 behind a pontiac engine. And another $4k for fuel injection. But if I went with a pontiac I'd stroke a 400 block to 461 and use Kauffman heads over any stock or even the Edelbrock heads. Kauffman's have a better combustion chamber shape and have D port exhaust so they work with more headers. So Figure the 461/t56 with FAST injection would be around $15k. But to make the same power and torque with an LS engine would cost quite a bit too. So it all depends what you want really. Both are eye appealing in my mind. LSx swaps are more common on the web but i've only seen 1 in person and that was a 5.3 in a jeep.

IRONFIST

Plain and simple, if you aren't running a stroker, you got something around 9 to one compression with those heads. You might be able to run the thing on regular gas, thats a bonus. Sounds like what you have is a 406 cubic inch engine, with ported stock heads, and that cam would give you somewhere around 320hp or so...
Basically it's making the same kinda power as a stock LS1. If you want more power, heads, intake, it'll wake it up nice...

stimpy

iTrader: (1)

one thing not all 350+ blocks are drilled for 4 bolts ,a select few years 69-70 for the 400's and NO 350 blocks are 4 bolt not even the 60's 350 H.O. , , second of all did you think you might have been taken by the last owner as the bill is over 8 years old ???? theres no block Id number listed on the build sheet and most decent shops supply the spec sheets with this info when you get a engine overhauled , ask the previous owner where are they . and the Idea of a 455SD HA ! they are going for over 15K just in parts if you can find one ( a freind of mine paid over $10 K for a shortblock used ! ) . you can build a very stout 400 for around $10K or a great low reving high torque 455 ( best of both worlds low rpm power and fuel milage ) ,and you can do better than edelbrock for heads , as for 6X-4s they are around cheap still go to any salvage yard that has any pontiacs ( except the 301) after 1976 and you will find them on standard firebirds even , I just picked up 2 sets for $200 if your gonna build one get the mccarthy book as it has all the heads listed in there , as for pontiac aftermarket its there you have to know where to look

demonpixel

iTrader: (19)

I bought the car about four years ago. I hear ya about bein taken though. I bought the car to learn about cars, and the more I learned the more 11:1 compression didn't make any sense.

Just haven't had as much luck with Pontiacs as I have with LS cars. In the end, you need to build what you're comfortable with.

stimpy

iTrader: (1)

I have been racing and working on ponchos for over 30 years and its a different breed , anything you learn about chevies you throw out the window when it comes to the pontiac ,it just doesn't work , its a low rpm high torque engine compared to the high rev chevy motor , not saying you can't make a poncho rev ( we do it quite often take 400's up to 7200 but not stock)but when you do it makes some serious power and its about the same cost as a chevy to build one just you have to search for parts and a shop that knows how to build them , being your from texas there are several guys who specialize in the pontiac down there and sell parts , look into the pontiac forums out there to find them .

also I was going to mention if the pistons are forged you will have oil consumption problems if the bore is not done right s the pistons are loose when you cold start and tighten up to the specs when it warms up . but there should be a sizable dome if its 11:1 especially with the 7k3 heads, if there flat then is 8.2:1 if the pistons are below the deck of the block @tdc if you can find the letters stamped on the right front of the block and I can possible try to identify if you have the original it should start witha w , y,or z

demonpixel

iTrader: (19)

Well that shop is a chevy shop so I wonder if that's mainly the reason the numbers are screwy. What are the main differences between pontiacs and chevies in your experience, stimpy?

ncbirdfan

Go with the Pontiac engine. They are great engines and are not under the hood of every other car on the road. As someone mentioned earlier, they are typically lower revving engines that built a lot of torque. There is no "big block" or "small block" either. The outside dimensions are the same for all of the displacements with only slight differences in castings over the years so they are pretty much interchangeable. Early model blocks in a later body may require motor mount adapters but that's all. Several honest Pontiac engine builders offer complete crate engines built however you want them. I'm hoping to purchase one for my '67 from either Butler or Ken's when I get finished with the body. Jim Hand wrote a great book if you want to learn more about Pontiac engines. It's called "How to Build High-Performance Pontiac V-8's". It's full of great information.

demonpixel

iTrader: (19)

Hate to say it, but those Pontiacs are just really unfamiliar with me. Trying to find complete stock heads are a pain; I check forums, ebay, and craigslist and 90% of the heads are incomplete. Been to a few swap meets and didn't find ANYTHING for Pontiacs, just chevy and ford stuff. Maybe this is part of being new to Ponchos? Where do you guys get your Pontiac heads?

And no, I have no idea what the compression is. That build sheet says 11:1 but I'd say anywhere from 8:1 to 9.5:1 so there's no telling. Starting from scratch with a new engine would be ideal...but would like to test to see if my short block is ok. I know you can find out cam specs from measuring the lift, but how do you measure crank stroke and compression ratio? Is there a way to measure cr other than the liquid test?