How do you guys make more power?
07-07-2016, 01:54 PM
#22
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That was an excellent post.
When I was relatively experienced at HPDE's, I'll never forget this chick in an 80's gutted VW rabbit. It looked like ****, it sounded like ****, and when it went around corners, it looked like a dog peeing on a tree...it was on three wheels more than 4. It took me in my Camaro everything I had and about 5 laps to finally get around her. I had 430 hp. She had like 85.
You see people at the track with high power cars all the time. They tip toe around the corners then blast down the straights. The problem is they think they are fast and they don't learn how to drive on a road course....the whole point they are there in the first place.
We're saying this not to tell you never to increase your power, but to wait to get some seat time. And please don't forget the saftey items. That's huge, and a big part of a budget. If you still decide to make buckets of power now, that's totally up to you. But don't be surprised when a Miata passes your 500 hp Camaro. Because it will happen.
When I was relatively experienced at HPDE's, I'll never forget this chick in an 80's gutted VW rabbit. It looked like ****, it sounded like ****, and when it went around corners, it looked like a dog peeing on a tree...it was on three wheels more than 4. It took me in my Camaro everything I had and about 5 laps to finally get around her. I had 430 hp. She had like 85.
You see people at the track with high power cars all the time. They tip toe around the corners then blast down the straights. The problem is they think they are fast and they don't learn how to drive on a road course....the whole point they are there in the first place.
We're saying this not to tell you never to increase your power, but to wait to get some seat time. And please don't forget the saftey items. That's huge, and a big part of a budget. If you still decide to make buckets of power now, that's totally up to you. But don't be surprised when a Miata passes your 500 hp Camaro. Because it will happen.
07-08-2016, 08:26 AM
#23
That was an excellent post.
When I was relatively experienced at HPDE's, I'll never forget this chick in an 80's gutted VW rabbit. It looked like ****, it sounded like ****, and when it went around corners, it looked like a dog peeing on a tree...it was on three wheels more than 4. It took me in my Camaro everything I had and about 5 laps to finally get around her. I had 430 hp. She had like 85.
You see people at the track with high power cars all the time. They tip toe around the corners then blast down the straights. The problem is they think they are fast and they don't learn how to drive on a road course....the whole point they are there in the first place.
We're saying this not to tell you never to increase your power, but to wait to get some seat time. And please don't forget the saftey items. That's huge, and a big part of a budget. If you still decide to make buckets of power now, that's totally up to you. But don't be surprised when a Miata passes your 500 hp Camaro. Because it will happen.
When I was relatively experienced at HPDE's, I'll never forget this chick in an 80's gutted VW rabbit. It looked like ****, it sounded like ****, and when it went around corners, it looked like a dog peeing on a tree...it was on three wheels more than 4. It took me in my Camaro everything I had and about 5 laps to finally get around her. I had 430 hp. She had like 85.
You see people at the track with high power cars all the time. They tip toe around the corners then blast down the straights. The problem is they think they are fast and they don't learn how to drive on a road course....the whole point they are there in the first place.
We're saying this not to tell you never to increase your power, but to wait to get some seat time. And please don't forget the saftey items. That's huge, and a big part of a budget. If you still decide to make buckets of power now, that's totally up to you. But don't be surprised when a Miata passes your 500 hp Camaro. Because it will happen.
07-09-2016, 04:28 PM
#24
All great advice, thanks guys. For sure I plan to get more experience here soon. Enrolled in a couple novice schools just to get some professional input and to point out any bad habits, though overall I feel comfortable with my car and where it's limits are.
If anything I need a better seat, even on the street on tight corners I'm sliding around all over the place
If anything I need a better seat, even on the street on tight corners I'm sliding around all over the place
07-11-2016, 10:44 PM
#25
I thought the same thing at my first HPDE. thought I knew the limits(owned the car for 15 years) and that the car would be the limiting factor.
boy was I humbled. turns out my ***** were the limiting factor. now this was a very big, very fast track so I kinda jumped straight into the deep end.
but with that being said that fear also keeps you safe.
yep a seat is huge. any stock leather is a big no no. your arms will be so exhausted after a day of holding yourself in the car. and you wont be able to put in the proper inputs to the car, as your using the wheel as a grab bar.
when It does come time to mods. Tires are the single handed biggest mod you can do to droping lap times. and im not just talking seconds per dollar value. im talking seconds in general period.
boy was I humbled. turns out my ***** were the limiting factor. now this was a very big, very fast track so I kinda jumped straight into the deep end.
but with that being said that fear also keeps you safe.
yep a seat is huge. any stock leather is a big no no. your arms will be so exhausted after a day of holding yourself in the car. and you wont be able to put in the proper inputs to the car, as your using the wheel as a grab bar.
when It does come time to mods. Tires are the single handed biggest mod you can do to droping lap times. and im not just talking seconds per dollar value. im talking seconds in general period.
07-14-2016, 09:31 AM
#26
IMO I would spend the money on a seat/harness/steering wheel/differential first, drive A LOT on the R888's. Once you get to the point where the R888's are holding you back, then step up to a better tire.
But overall, speak with cam designers like LE or AI and tell them your plans. Set a goal (in terms of a build) NOT HP goals, then stick to the plan.
My wife bought me a long block LT1 and shortblock LT1 for my 30th that I'm going to rebuild. So I'll be going through the disassembly/cleaning/inspection/planning/rebuilding steps starting shortly. I don't NEED more power but I have been racing for about 3 years and I've always wanted to build/learn a motor. So why not LOL
08-16-2016, 08:02 AM
#27
If you want reliable power, LS6 heads/cam/intake. With supporting mods it will make around 385 to the wheels and have nice flat torque....run forever.
If you want to go faster at a track.
Good seat, roll bar and belts...get comfy in the car and not have to fight it to drive it.
Get the car more neutral, the Fbody is one *** happy platform...get the rear to grip better. The easiest way is to run a staggered tire setup. If you can get an Fbody to push/under steer you win...I couldn't do it. Rear grip equals confidence.
The Fbody WILL teach you how to drive and get comfy with the car moving around if you'll stick with it. It's hard on the brain but it made me a better driver.
Power on track only covers up bad habits. Higher corner entry speed and maintaining it is what makes you quicker here, not more power.
If you want to go faster at a track.
Good seat, roll bar and belts...get comfy in the car and not have to fight it to drive it.
Get the car more neutral, the Fbody is one *** happy platform...get the rear to grip better. The easiest way is to run a staggered tire setup. If you can get an Fbody to push/under steer you win...I couldn't do it. Rear grip equals confidence.
The Fbody WILL teach you how to drive and get comfy with the car moving around if you'll stick with it. It's hard on the brain but it made me a better driver.
Power on track only covers up bad habits. Higher corner entry speed and maintaining it is what makes you quicker here, not more power.
08-20-2016, 08:28 PM
#28
I went through a few engines in my car, including a nicely modded LS2 (ported heads, hot cam, etc). By far the most joy I've gotten out of the car has been this year, when I finally said screw the mods, and dropped in a bone stock LS3 from a wrecked corvette. It is stock, computer to oil pan. The only "mods," if you want to call them that, are external - oil cooler, underdrive fluidampr and LTH.
The engine starts reliably, even in crappy weather. I don't have to fix little things after every run like I used to. No oil leaks or weird noises. I don't worry about it finishing a session like I used to.
I'd follow the excellent advice from the others and spend the money on seat time and a slow build up over time of mods related to getting around the track more reliably and safely.
The engine starts reliably, even in crappy weather. I don't have to fix little things after every run like I used to. No oil leaks or weird noises. I don't worry about it finishing a session like I used to.
I'd follow the excellent advice from the others and spend the money on seat time and a slow build up over time of mods related to getting around the track more reliably and safely.
08-22-2016, 01:15 PM
#29
I went through a few engines in my car, including a nicely modded LS2 (ported heads, hot cam, etc). By far the most joy I've gotten out of the car has been this year, when I finally said screw the mods, and dropped in a bone stock LS3 from a wrecked corvette. It is stock, computer to oil pan. The only "mods," if you want to call them that, are external - oil cooler, underdrive fluidampr and LTH.
The engine starts reliably, even in crappy weather. I don't have to fix little things after every run like I used to. No oil leaks or weird noises. I don't worry about it finishing a session like I used to.
I'd follow the excellent advice from the others and spend the money on seat time and a slow build up over time of mods related to getting around the track more reliably and safely.
The engine starts reliably, even in crappy weather. I don't have to fix little things after every run like I used to. No oil leaks or weird noises. I don't worry about it finishing a session like I used to.
I'd follow the excellent advice from the others and spend the money on seat time and a slow build up over time of mods related to getting around the track more reliably and safely.
But most people underestimate reliability lol. I would rather be middle of the pack during the day but FINISH than to be leading then break down.
I get the most enjoyment racing when I learn something and my car doesn't break or something comes up that causes me to stop.
08-23-2016, 06:10 PM
#30
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ill just add that this is NOT "road racing", its track days, HPDE. there is no prize money, trophy, bragging rights, nothing.
my TA had nothing more then a tune, full exhaust, and bolt ons, making 355hp/370tq at the wheels, plus suspension, brakes, tires, etc for handling. i cant count how many cars i passed, at HPDEs, including vettes, porches, rice, cts-v, etc, many of which made more power then mine.
i remember one caddy, one that made the 505hp at the time or something like that, that would ride my *** on the straight, but id simply walk away from him everywhere else. i could brake 150ft deeper, my entrance and exit speeds were higher, and i could take a tighter line then him.
handling mods plus more experience is what you need, not heads and a cam. youll be shocked at what a seat, harness bar or some kind of tight lap belt, race brakes, and used race slicks will do to your car. i guarantee if timed, youll turn a faster lap with a seat/belts, tires and brakes, then you ever will with heads and cam.
tires, brakes, seat, belt, and seat time.
my TA had nothing more then a tune, full exhaust, and bolt ons, making 355hp/370tq at the wheels, plus suspension, brakes, tires, etc for handling. i cant count how many cars i passed, at HPDEs, including vettes, porches, rice, cts-v, etc, many of which made more power then mine.
i remember one caddy, one that made the 505hp at the time or something like that, that would ride my *** on the straight, but id simply walk away from him everywhere else. i could brake 150ft deeper, my entrance and exit speeds were higher, and i could take a tighter line then him.
handling mods plus more experience is what you need, not heads and a cam. youll be shocked at what a seat, harness bar or some kind of tight lap belt, race brakes, and used race slicks will do to your car. i guarantee if timed, youll turn a faster lap with a seat/belts, tires and brakes, then you ever will with heads and cam.
tires, brakes, seat, belt, and seat time.
08-23-2016, 11:40 PM
#31
Good advice guys, just got my Frost mail order tune back which made the whole car feel a lot better in the lower rpms. In the meanwhile, I've been doing some autocrosses to get a better feel for the car. One thing is for sure, she grips like glue. Running in time only class and I was right up with the Evo's and Sti's on slicks. Definitely, a better seat is #1 on my list. #2 however is brakes. Before I go out and practice HPDE's at triple digit speeds, I think I may have to finally upgrade from my $150 brakemotive kit. My Forgestars do allow clearance for something like a CTS-V or Z06 brake kit, is this necessary or will a set of blanks and good pads be enough?
08-24-2016, 04:51 AM
#32
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Good advice guys, just got my Frost mail order tune back which made the whole car feel a lot better in the lower rpms. In the meanwhile, I've been doing some autocrosses to get a better feel for the car. One thing is for sure, she grips like glue. Running in time only class and I was right up with the Evo's and Sti's on slicks. Definitely, a better seat is #1 on my list. #2 however is brakes. Before I go out and practice HPDE's at triple digit speeds, I think I may have to finally upgrade from my $150 brakemotive kit. My Forgestars do allow clearance for something like a CTS-V or Z06 brake kit, is this necessary or will a set of blanks and good pads be enough?
08-24-2016, 08:08 AM
#33
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you dont absolutely need cooling ducts. proper pads that are engineered to take the heat are all you need. there are plenty of people on this very forum that race professionally WITHOUT cooling ducts. 00TRANSRAM or a name similar to that is one in particular.
ducting can be very expensive and invasive when it comes to modifying airdams or bumpers to accept ducting. not to mention a pain in the *** to route hoses without constantly having tire rub.
you do NOT 'need' cooling ducts when proper pads are used. theyre made to take extreme heat and only work when theyre hot. i cant imagine overheating race pads during a track day, if you know what youre doing and not blatantly abusing the brakes. start with LS1 brakes and get some race pads from tirerack, with solid rotors. an upgrade is C5 brakes, and race pads. i do believe race pads for C5s are actually cheaper than LS1s, or at least they were 5yrs ago.
ducting can be very expensive and invasive when it comes to modifying airdams or bumpers to accept ducting. not to mention a pain in the *** to route hoses without constantly having tire rub.
you do NOT 'need' cooling ducts when proper pads are used. theyre made to take extreme heat and only work when theyre hot. i cant imagine overheating race pads during a track day, if you know what youre doing and not blatantly abusing the brakes. start with LS1 brakes and get some race pads from tirerack, with solid rotors. an upgrade is C5 brakes, and race pads. i do believe race pads for C5s are actually cheaper than LS1s, or at least they were 5yrs ago.
08-24-2016, 07:31 PM
#34
I have never overheated a set of hawk pads, what usually gets me is the rotors. I go through a set every 3 or 4 track outings at VIR (wheel to wheel racing, not HPDE or autocross). We use autozone or whoever gold rotors, have a warranty. When they crack (WHEN, not IF) we just take them and exchange them. One lap around VIR is enough to get the brakes up to 600 degrees. We found another set that we want to try, hopefully they hold up better.
For sure get more seat time. I've only been doing it a year and a half or so, the more I race, the faster I get. The difference between suspension and engine mods is huge too. You can put a Miata engine in there before you can take my slicks or shocks. Getting a big enough rear tire is my current issue, I can't keep the back behind the car to save my life, slowing me wayyyy down. 275 R1 slicks right now, going to a 335 R1 slick.
For sure get more seat time. I've only been doing it a year and a half or so, the more I race, the faster I get. The difference between suspension and engine mods is huge too. You can put a Miata engine in there before you can take my slicks or shocks. Getting a big enough rear tire is my current issue, I can't keep the back behind the car to save my life, slowing me wayyyy down. 275 R1 slicks right now, going to a 335 R1 slick.
08-26-2016, 07:46 AM
#35
Pads are like oil...pick the right ones for the application. A good pad will go a long way. I'm running Hawk HP+ pads and they need some heat to work but they work well at autocross for me on LS1 brakes that I put on my LT1. Call Strano and UMI, I'm sure they can get you set up with recommendations.
I will caution you...the HP+ dust a decent amount and SLIGHTLY squeak when cold slowing down.
I will caution you...the HP+ dust a decent amount and SLIGHTLY squeak when cold slowing down.
08-26-2016, 08:15 AM
#36
I have never overheated a set of hawk pads, what usually gets me is the rotors. I go through a set every 3 or 4 track outings at VIR (wheel to wheel racing, not HPDE or autocross). We use autozone or whoever gold rotors, have a warranty. When they crack (WHEN, not IF) we just take them and exchange them. One lap around VIR is enough to get the brakes up to 600 degrees. We found another set that we want to try, hopefully they hold up better.
For sure get more seat time. I've only been doing it a year and a half or so, the more I race, the faster I get. The difference between suspension and engine mods is huge too. You can put a Miata engine in there before you can take my slicks or shocks. Getting a big enough rear tire is my current issue, I can't keep the back behind the car to save my life, slowing me wayyyy down. 275 R1 slicks right now, going to a 335 R1 slick.
For sure get more seat time. I've only been doing it a year and a half or so, the more I race, the faster I get. The difference between suspension and engine mods is huge too. You can put a Miata engine in there before you can take my slicks or shocks. Getting a big enough rear tire is my current issue, I can't keep the back behind the car to save my life, slowing me wayyyy down. 275 R1 slicks right now, going to a 335 R1 slick.
Are you cracking them or warping them(rotors)?
Lower the rear roll center for more rear grip or try one gear higher.
08-27-2016, 11:45 AM
#37
A lot of good advice above. For me, I think the order of modifications are:
* seat time
* suspension/aerodynamics (if the tires aren't touching the ground you're losing control)
* tires (because they are your only interface to the ground)
* brakes
Looking at your signature and later comments:
* The next time you change brake rotors, I'd opt for directionally vaned solid blank rotors.
* Do you ever drive those R888's in rain? I use NT05's on the street since I heard R888's can be scary in the rain.
* If you ever decide to do a cam, pick something which is easy on the valve train. Relatively low valve lift (.600-.620" max) and makes it's power over the wide RPM range you use during racing.
* Kooks full dual exhaust... are you referring to the over the axle version? If yes, I think that requires the upper panhard brace to be lowered to fit both pipes over the axle. Vendors such as BMR offer an aftermarket brace, but a vendor on FRRAX advises that their 'S-shape' brace is actually behaving like a spring and shouldn't be used as high lateral loads could bend it.
* CTS-V brakes... I looked into switching to these recently. I know you have 18" wheels, but for 17" I would have had to grind on the outer bracket and worry about wheel clearance. Even if I had 18" wheels, IIRC, the Camaro SS rotors need a modification to work with our hubs and the Z06 rotors left a large lip on the edge of the rotor. I wanted something where if they failed I could go to a local parts counter and get replacements without depending upon a machinist to get them to work. A workaround is to keep more spares pre-machined and ready to be installed but I wasn't interested in that. You might want to look more into these minor 'gotcha's if you haven't already. And, when adding more brake force up front, you're upsetting the car's overall brake balance. On my car, about 75-80% of the braking is done in the front depending upon the pad compound. You can go more aggressive in the rear to try to keep the F<>R balance in check, but if you go too aggressive in the rear then the rear brakes will lock up early and cause axle hop, and when the tires are hopping, you lose control.
* Rear gears... if you choose to change your tranny or final drive ratios, look at the tracks/courses you frequent and try to find a balance which gives you the best acceleration without shifting into an overdrive gear.
A replacement driver seat is something I need to consider soon. Although I have the factory power cloth seats, something minor in the mounting mechanism seems to have failed which causes the seat to tilt back more than normal during acceleration. Since it's a daily driver, I'd prefer something which reclines and is a perfect bolt-in solution without manual customization. Any recommendations on brands & models to look into? I seem to recall reading that during HPDE's, instructors want both front seats to be the same?
I've got a rear main seal leak on my LS3. When I pull the tranny to fix that leak I plan to replace my LS7/Fidanza clutch combo with a McLeod RST/Fidanza clutch combo at the same time.
* seat time
* suspension/aerodynamics (if the tires aren't touching the ground you're losing control)
* tires (because they are your only interface to the ground)
* brakes
Looking at your signature and later comments:
* The next time you change brake rotors, I'd opt for directionally vaned solid blank rotors.
* Do you ever drive those R888's in rain? I use NT05's on the street since I heard R888's can be scary in the rain.
* If you ever decide to do a cam, pick something which is easy on the valve train. Relatively low valve lift (.600-.620" max) and makes it's power over the wide RPM range you use during racing.
* Kooks full dual exhaust... are you referring to the over the axle version? If yes, I think that requires the upper panhard brace to be lowered to fit both pipes over the axle. Vendors such as BMR offer an aftermarket brace, but a vendor on FRRAX advises that their 'S-shape' brace is actually behaving like a spring and shouldn't be used as high lateral loads could bend it.
* CTS-V brakes... I looked into switching to these recently. I know you have 18" wheels, but for 17" I would have had to grind on the outer bracket and worry about wheel clearance. Even if I had 18" wheels, IIRC, the Camaro SS rotors need a modification to work with our hubs and the Z06 rotors left a large lip on the edge of the rotor. I wanted something where if they failed I could go to a local parts counter and get replacements without depending upon a machinist to get them to work. A workaround is to keep more spares pre-machined and ready to be installed but I wasn't interested in that. You might want to look more into these minor 'gotcha's if you haven't already. And, when adding more brake force up front, you're upsetting the car's overall brake balance. On my car, about 75-80% of the braking is done in the front depending upon the pad compound. You can go more aggressive in the rear to try to keep the F<>R balance in check, but if you go too aggressive in the rear then the rear brakes will lock up early and cause axle hop, and when the tires are hopping, you lose control.
* Rear gears... if you choose to change your tranny or final drive ratios, look at the tracks/courses you frequent and try to find a balance which gives you the best acceleration without shifting into an overdrive gear.
A replacement driver seat is something I need to consider soon. Although I have the factory power cloth seats, something minor in the mounting mechanism seems to have failed which causes the seat to tilt back more than normal during acceleration. Since it's a daily driver, I'd prefer something which reclines and is a perfect bolt-in solution without manual customization. Any recommendations on brands & models to look into? I seem to recall reading that during HPDE's, instructors want both front seats to be the same?
I've got a rear main seal leak on my LS3. When I pull the tranny to fix that leak I plan to replace my LS7/Fidanza clutch combo with a McLeod RST/Fidanza clutch combo at the same time.
08-27-2016, 02:23 PM
#38
* Kooks full dual exhaust... are you referring to the over the axle version? If yes, I think that requires the upper panhard brace to be lowered to fit both pipes over the axle. Vendors such as BMR offer an aftermarket brace, but a vendor on FRRAX advises that their 'S-shape' brace is actually behaving like a spring and shouldn't be used as high lateral loads could bend it.
* CTS-V brakes... I looked into switching to these recently. I know you have 18" wheels, but for 17" I would have had to grind on the outer bracket and worry about wheel clearance. Even if I had 18" wheels, IIRC, the Camaro SS rotors need a modification to work with our hubs and the Z06 rotors left a large lip on the edge of the rotor. I wanted something where if they failed I could go to a local parts counter and get replacements without depending upon a machinist to get them to work. A workaround is to keep more spares pre-machined and ready to be installed but I wasn't interested in that. You might want to look more into these minor 'gotcha's if you haven't already. And, when adding more brake force up front, you're upsetting the car's overall brake balance. On my car, about 75-80% of the braking is done in the front depending upon the pad compound. You can go more aggressive in the rear to try to keep the F<>R balance in check, but if you go too aggressive in the rear then the rear brakes will lock up early and cause axle hop, and when the tires are hopping, you lose control.
Great advice, something I didn't think about. What are your suggestions on what diff I should get?
08-27-2016, 05:41 PM
#39
I've personally used an early Torsen T2R, Auburn Racer's Differential, and an Eaton clutch-based unit in the GM 10-bolt. I liked the T2R until it exploded but didn't get another because I read that the newer units were weaker. I bought the ARD because of their warranty program but I don't recall why I got rid of it. I've been happy with the Eaton for years. I've read mixed reviews of the ARD as well as a Detroit TruTrac; I don't know if it's quality control or simply driver perspective.