335 Square Setup... am I crazy? - LS1TECH



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335 Square Setup... am I crazy?

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Old 12-06-2016, 08:03 PM   #1
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Default 335 Square Setup... am I crazy?

Has it been done before? Currently I'm running a square 315 setup on 18x11 Forgestars and was wondering if I could go bigger. I love my car and it surprises a lot of people but I'm always looking for that extra tenth or two. I mainly autocross and on the tighter tracks I feel the understeer is really costing me time. On some of the open tracks though I can hold my own against Turbo S2000's and Miata's.

My question is, how much benefit, if any, would I get from going 315>335's and are there any other setup changes I can make to alleviate some of that understeer?
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Old 12-06-2016, 08:06 PM   #2
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Driver mod / alignment / susp. tuning
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Old 12-06-2016, 10:29 PM   #3
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Stiffen the rear. Strano springs are soft as hell in the rear.

335 on a 11inch wheel would be floppy as hell. You would need at least 12in wheel.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:42 AM   #4
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Driver mod / alignment / susp. tuning
X2! You have a big list of mods in your signature. IMHO spend some money on some driving schools and alignment.
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:42 AM   #5
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The video below was from when my car had a relatively basic set up. 275 square, stock LS1 with carb and LTH. Leaf spring rear suspension had yet to receive the Watts link. It literally beat everything on the track that day. Spec Miata racer, blown coyote mustangs, evos, subbies--even a couple guys in lotus Elise s. Yeah, I know, that last bit shouldn't have happened, but it drives home the most important mod of all, the driver. The dude driving my TA had a ton of experience and wasn't afraid to push the limits.


Same car, different driver, autocross this time. This was his first time behind the wheel and he not only put it in the middle of the standings, he figured he could shave several seconds with a bit more seat time. This was on 340 TW street tires, 275s


Last edited by 1981TA; 12-07-2016 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:52 AM   #6
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I see you are in Washington state so I can't really say "watch how Strano drives"... But I've seen him drive (he's semi-local and been to my events) and it's amazing. He really "flings" the car around. Gets the back end to come around on command, with juuuuust the right amount of looseness so it hooks up right when it needs too. It's partly setup. The other part is technique. I doubt more rubber is going to help you. You need to either practice more, or try some new things. Not to be condescending, b/c I would give myself (15 years AX) the same advice, I'm not as good as I could be. Maybe loosen the rear if you need to rotate it more, and spend a season dedicated to just working on technique, don't worry about actually winning.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dojob View Post
Driver mod / alignment / susp. tuning
Any alignment suggestions? I'm currently running -1.25 camber, no toe and around 4* of caster. I would like turn in to be sharper and have the car rotate more so I can control it with the throttle. I'm still messing around with tire pressures/shock rebound changes but haven't found any setting that I like yet.

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Originally Posted by Chris Paveglio View Post
I see you are in Washington state so I can't really say "watch how Strano drives"... But I've seen him drive (he's semi-local and been to my events) and it's amazing. He really "flings" the car around. Gets the back end to come around on command, with juuuuust the right amount of looseness so it hooks up right when it needs too. It's partly setup. The other part is technique. I doubt more rubber is going to help you. You need to either practice more, or try some new things. Not to be condescending, b/c I would give myself (15 years AX) the same advice, I'm not as good as I could be. Maybe loosen the rear if you need to rotate it more, and spend a season dedicated to just working on technique, don't worry about actually winning.
I've watched a lot of Strano's videos and he really is amazing.

As for driver mod, I've been doing competitive sim racing for over 10 years and been pretty successful. Though I've been autocrossing and RR for just a couple years, I feel as though I have a good grasp of where my car's limits currently stand. Once I get dialed in, my runs are very consistent and frankly most of the instructors don't believe me when I tell them how long I've been behind the wheel. Not to sound like a jerk but I honestly don't think there are many people than can lay down a faster time in my car once I learn a track. Couple times I even let some instructors drive my car and they were well over 2 seconds off my PB. There's always room to learn and better yourself but I think at this point it would be more beneficial to start trying new setup changes rather than just seat time.

Last edited by M4N14C; 12-07-2016 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 12-07-2016, 02:25 PM   #8
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Street car don't bother. Autocross car do it. I was the only 4th gen at nationals this year that wasn't running 335s. Simmons tested a 2016 Mustang with 315s and 335s. On the practice course it ran a consistent 36.4 on the 315s. They then took it back to the paddock, swapped over to 335s, and then ran a 35.7 first time out. Those cars are heavier and make more power so I would expect them to benefit more, but everyone I have talked to has said it was faster. You will need a 12in wheel and either a stiff suspension or fender mods to make it work. I'm pretty sure I can fit them under stock fenders with my spring rates.

Not worth it on tighter courses though, being narrow would be more important there. For most locals the 315s would likely be quicker due to tighter gates. That national stuff tends to be a lot more open.

How much does the car weigh?

Last edited by landstuhltaylor; 12-07-2016 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 12-07-2016, 02:33 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by M4N14C View Post
Any alignment suggestions? I'm currently running -1.25 camber, no toe and around 4* of caster. I would like turn in to be sharper and have the car rotate more so I can control it with the throttle. I'm still messing around with tire pressures/shock rebound changes but haven't found any setting that I like yet.
Needs much more camber than that, -2.6 to -2.8 or so on Hoosiers. Add toe out for better turn-in.
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Old 12-07-2016, 03:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by landstuhltaylor View Post
Street car don't bother. Autocross car do it. I was the only 4th gen at nationals this year that wasn't running 335s. Simmons tested a 2016 Mustang with 315s and 335s. On the practice course it ran a consistent 36.4 on the 315s. They then took it back to the paddock, swapped over to 335s, and then ran a 35.7 first time out. Those cars are heavier and make more power so I would expect them to benefit more, but everyone I have talked to has said it was faster. You will need a 12in wheel and either a stiff suspension or fender mods to make it work. I'm pretty sure I can fit them under stock fenders with my spring rates.

Not worth it on tighter courses though, being narrow would be more important there. For most locals the 315s would likely be quicker due to tighter gates. That national stuff tends to be a lot more open.

How much does the car weigh?
If I absolutely need a 12" wheel then I probably won't go through with it, for now at least.

Haven't weighed the car yet but I would assume sub 3300 as I have taken quite of bit of stuff out.

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Originally Posted by landstuhltaylor View Post
Needs much more camber than that, -2.6 to -2.8 or so on Hoosiers. Add toe out for better turn-in.
Will stock control/A-arms allow that or with I have to go with the UMI ones?
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Old 12-07-2016, 04:11 PM   #11
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You will need aftermarket, your adjustment is already maxed on factory arms. Most of the ESP cars are using Global West arms as they have a delrin version, and I think everyone has had Alan Blaine modify them a bit more for clearance. I would think the UMI ones would work as well.
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:30 PM   #12
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Any alignment suggestions? I'm currently running -1.25 camber, no toe and around 4* of caster. I would like turn in to be sharper and have the car rotate more so I can control it with the throttle. I'm still messing around with tire pressures/shock rebound changes but haven't found any setting that I like yet.
If you want to spend money on parts, I highly suggest the fays2 watts link. The adjustable roll center can really help dialing in the understeer/oversteer and turn in. I can tell a hell of a difference with it set high vs set low just taking corners hard on the street.
I don't know what you have your shocks set at but I always found for myself the best turn in is when the fronts are set at 3 sweeps from full stiff or higher even, makes quite the difference for me compared to softer settings.
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Old 12-08-2016, 06:30 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post
If you want to spend money on parts, I highly suggest the fays2 watts link. The adjustable roll center can really help dialing in the understeer/oversteer and turn in. I can tell a hell of a difference with it set high vs set low just taking corners hard on the street.
I don't know what you have your shocks set at but I always found for myself the best turn in is when the fronts are set at 3 sweeps from full stiff or higher even, makes quite the difference for me compared to softer settings.
Agreed

Roll center management, either:
-Fays2 Watts
OR
-UMI's new panhard lowering/leveling kit UMI Releases New Product: Panhard Bar Lowering/Leveling Kit for the 1982-2002 F-Body

I just installed the lowering/leveling kit and took it for a 15 mi ride for the 1st time last night and can tell a difference
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:12 AM   #14
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If you don't know what the car weighs would it be safe to say that the car has never been corner balanced?
If so that is the first thing I would have done - find a competent shop that will scale the car for you. This gives you a baseline for all future adjustments.
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Old 12-08-2016, 12:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by landstuhltaylor View Post
Needs much more camber than that, -2.6 to -2.8 or so on Hoosiers. Add toe out for better turn-in.
Exactly.

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If I absolutely need a 12" wheel then I probably won't go through with it, for now at least.

Haven't weighed the car yet but I would assume sub 3300 as I have taken quite of bit of stuff out.

Will stock control/A-arms allow that or with I have to go with the UMI ones?
I'm running stock everything with a slotted stock k member and I achieved -2.5 camber, 1/8" toe out and maxed the castor (I forget the value). Strano springs.

Need coil overs and adjustable sway bar end links to corner balance the car.


IMO it's not worth spending money to jump to 335's from 315's. Fine tune suspension to work with your diving. If not already, get actual tires and not R888 and really shave some time. If you do, plan on spending money for upgraded hubs. You have a solid set of wheels, just put better tires on it and improve your driving.

If you are serious about this, skip any PHB and go watts link.
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Old 12-08-2016, 03:47 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by JD_AMG View Post
If you want to spend money on parts, I highly suggest the fays2 watts link. The adjustable roll center can really help dialing in the understeer/oversteer and turn in. I can tell a hell of a difference with it set high vs set low just taking corners hard on the street.
I don't know what you have your shocks set at but I always found for myself the best turn in is when the fronts are set at 3 sweeps from full stiff or higher even, makes quite the difference for me compared to softer settings.
I've been looking at a watts link for a while now. Is there any difference between all the aftermarket options available? (weight, adjustability...etc)

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Originally Posted by LT-4Play View Post
If you don't know what the car weighs would it be safe to say that the car has never been corner balanced?
If so that is the first thing I would have done - find a competent shop that will scale the car for you. This gives you a baseline for all future adjustments.
I literally got my Koni/Strano setup months before they came out with the UMI/Strano coilover kit. I would love a coilover setup but unless I absolutely need a coilover setup I'd like to spend the money elseware.

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IMO it's not worth spending money to jump to 335's from 315's. Fine tune suspension to work with your diving. If not already, get actual tires and not R888 and really shave some time. If you do, plan on spending money for upgraded hubs. You have a solid set of wheels, just put better tires on it and improve your driving.

If you are serious about this, skip any PHB and go watts link.
What tires do you recommend? Once I get the R888's warmed up they're very sticky. So far my MOOG hubs are holding up just fine. Once they get some play I plan on swapping them out as they came with a 3 year warranty.
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Old 12-09-2016, 11:03 AM   #17
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2 real options for hubs:

Adapter's for SKF hubs from vettes
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.p...0&#entry188296

Hoosier hubs
http://hoosierpe.com/tech-info/4th-g...-hub-assembly/
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Old 12-10-2016, 08:47 AM   #18
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I've been looking at a watts link for a while now. Is there any difference between all the aftermarket options available? (weight, adjustability...etc)
I don't know for positive but im sure there is just by looking at them, it looks like the MWC one is the lightest and the BMR one is the heaviest.
Adjustablility wise I don't know without measuring either.
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Old 12-10-2016, 10:46 AM   #19
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The fays2 watts link is well made and was a fairly simple install. On a second gen, however, it is difficult to route a large exhaust past it. My dual 3" exhaust terminates just before my rear axle because of that.
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Old 12-10-2016, 12:20 PM   #20
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Fays2 is proven. The MWC is small, and won't be nearly as durable. The BMR piece is a poorly designed rat trap.
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