cpo

iTrader: (13)

Sound deaden the rear all the way forward to under the back seats, sail panels, and doors and it will make a huge difference. Just finished mine recently and it is now at least as quiet as when I still had the factory muffler. I'm running an axle back with only a tiny 4" dynomax bullet resonator but would never know it from inside the car.

cpo

iTrader: (13)

Alpine is advertizing a new motor structure design for its newest Type R's, are you familiar with this and do you still feel this new design is not good?

More Excursion = More Output
The new FEA-Optomized Motor Structure together with our revolutionary High-Amplitude Multi Roll (HAMR) Suspension Design gives the new Type-R Subwoofers the highest X-max and SPL output in the category.

With a real-world, measured 21mm of X-max, allow the new Type-R Subwoofers to deliver the best-in-class bass output, ultra-low distortion, and unparalleled sound quality.

More Motor Force = More Control
Starting with a new ten piece, segmented magnet structure, the new Type-R subwoofer has over 20% more motor force than its predecessor delivering more accurate, louder and cleaner bass with even more control.

http://car-subwoofer-review.toptenre...r-details.html

The Xmax is 20mm.

Snake_Skinner

iTrader: (12)

^ D@met, I thought I got a good deal paying $80 shipped for a BNIB Type R 10" sub. That link has the new design for $92.

edit: feel a little bit better its $30 to ship it.

dragonrage

I'll look into it.

My6speedZ

iTrader: (18)

Does long excursion = low notes? Thats what always pleased me about my w7 was how low they were able to go,

My6speedZ

iTrader: (18)

I have LT'S w/ no cats ran to true duals w/ bullets. My car is F'n loud. I pretty much have to turn the stockies up so loud they are on the boarder of distorting just to be heard.

dragonrage

Well, you need both excursion and power handling for deep bass. The deeper you go, the more of both you will need. Depending on what you're trying to play and how a speaker is designed, power can be the limit, excursion can be the limit, or both. With speakers - just like engines - there is no replacement for displacement. And with a speaker, displacement is the cone area (Sd) times the excursion (Xmax) and the resulting value is volumetric displacement, Vd. It's actually better to achieve a higher Vd via cone area than it is with excursion, but obviously there's a limit to cone size in both the area that it fits into and the ability to keep the cone rigid at large diameters while still being able to achieve a proper frequency response capability with reasonably low distortion.

It's not that hard to build what most would consider a decent subwoofer, but it's quite hard to build a great subwoofer.

LilJayV10

iTrader: (39)

I am running a CDT HD-1000CF 10" sub. It's a DVC and it's wired up to 4 ohms. This is my first car audio setup so I don't have anything to compare it to but IMO it sounds pretty damn good. I'm using a JL 700/5 amp. It hits hard, sound quality is amazing even when you turn it up.

KEE AUDIO

iTrader: (65)

Just to clarify though the HD-1000CF is a solid SQ sub but not a SQL or SPL type sub that hits really low bass. It really is for tight kick drum type bass. It does not have alot of excursion (12-14mm) for the big low end type stuff nor does it have a large motor. It is a well built sub using quality materials without needing alot of power to push it for optimal sound. So you don't need a 1000watt amp to push one. 300watts RMS is more then enough for that sub.

The new Alpine Type-R motor looks very similar to the Type-X motor IMO. They may have borrowed a few things from that sub as it already had 21mm of excursion. Nice looking sub though. Have to check with my Alpine guy to see if they have one I can check out.

cpo

iTrader: (13)

Great observation Kee. After doing a little research on the new Type-R's, it does seem as if they are essentially Type-X's internally. A couple of articles I read said to definitely get the new R's over the X's as they spec-out and sound virtually the same, but are nicely cheaper.

Spinmonster

In response the the OP's original question, I have to warn you about asking such a generic question of people and then taking responses that say nothing about how the speaker was used.

You can take any speaker and put it in the wrong box to get really bad results. Having used the Alpine type R 15's in every conceivable configuration, the LMS r15 (TC sounds) and the 13W7AE, I can give a few facts not based on heresay.

I didnt get the TC sounds 15 because its back ordered and I will report on that first hand when its a completed, broken in, and measured sub.

First, I used the Alpine 15 Type R in sealed and vented boxes with the vented alignments that ranged from overdamped 19HZ tuning (High SQ) in my home theater to the 28Hz tuning in my hummer with a 4 cubic foot box run with a rockford fosgate 4000.1D amp. I can say that if you listen to the Alpine in a sealed box, you miss 99% of its deep bass capability because its down 15db at 25hz in comparison. Sealed boxes beat ported boxes only under 15hz. Ported beats it from 15 to the -3db point of the sealed box. If its anythng over a Q of .78, its total garbage so you can eliminate all the opinions from people who tried the 15 in too small a sealed box. Ported boxes sound really tight if yu tune the port/vent to the maximally flat -3db frequency. As you go higher, the SQ deteriorates with about 30 being the end of really tight bass. 33hz sounds like one note bass to me.

Next is the opinion from the installer who based his opinion on the first day of its use. Installers dont keep people's cars for a month to see how something sounds broken in. My hummer sounded so bad for the first 4 weeks until the thing broke in, that I was ready to give it away. I didnt ditch it right away because the ones in my Home Theater system have count-the-cylces tight bass that rivals the best servo subs I have heard. I run them with bryston 7B amps ($6000 bucks) and they hold their own. As far as sound quality, the variables are:

1-What amp are you using and are you running it at 1, 2, 4, or 8 ohms.

This is likely the worst contributer to bad sound. First all amps sound different from each other and the same amp with different impedance loads sound worse as the load drops. An amp loses damping factor as you run lower impedances. I have both 4+4 15's and 2+2 15's and my amp can run 1 ohm loads easy with a ton of power. In my house when I run a Crown XTI4000's at 2, 4, or 8 ohms, its a staggering difference. The brystons are the tightest but they only hit 800watts at 4 ohms (actually measure 954 at clipping). In my Hummer, I tried all combos starting with the 4+4 series hook-up and its way tighter than 2 or 1 ohm loads. 4 is passable with the 2+2 set-up on the coils but you can start hearing the real difference at 2. If you are running 1 ohm loads you arent hearing anything high in SQ.

2-Now the biggest joke: the box.

The box makes the bass not the speaker. I lost count how many guys try out the speaker of their choice in way too small a box so they can fit two drivers and all they get is a blob of mud. 2 alpine 12's in a sealed box will be embarrassed by a single 12 in a ported box of the same volume. If the tuning frequency is too high you get more SPL with no definition and if you chhose a tuning frequency under the Fs of the speaker, it approaches the transient response of a sealed sytem and it has way more 20-40hz bass. The 15 in a sealed 2.5 cubic foot box is -3db at 37hz and the same 15 in a ported 4 cubic foot box is -3 at 20hz or about 12db louder at 20hz than its sealed box alignment. Now if you raise the tuning frequency to 28hz, the same 15 is showing only a marginal loss in SQ but gains 6db at 30hz. The significance of this gain in db is that every 3db requires you to double the amplifier power to get it where its free if you go ported. A 15db increase at 30hz (try that on your EQ) is staggering and would require a sealed sub to have the amp power double 5 times to get it.

3-Port size

You need 10-15 square inches of port area for each cubic foot of box volume or it starts to compress at high SPL. The lowest bass is made by the plug of air moving in and out of the port. If you have a big speaker in a big box, a 4" port isnt going to match the air moving capability of a 15 with a 2" or in the case of the TC 15, 3" peak to peak excursion.

4-Break in period

Asking an installer who lives with a speaker for a few hours is asking a guy to rate a speaker without it being broken in. You need to have weeks if not months for a big cone to loosen up. My JL 13W7's are at this stage right now and I can tell you the company bases it sales on hyping up that their speakers work in really small boxes. The 13w7 needs a huge box if its ported and it isnt worth it in a car. A ported Alpine 15 type R stomps a JL in a sealed box. If the JL is in the correct size box for a .7 Q (not the recommended .78 Q in a 1.78 cubic foot box) its really tight and fast but it bottoms out. If you shrink the box to raise power handling, the Q goes up and it loses SQ.

5-Last up is amplifier power/size.

Contrary to the myths you read, you cant have too big an amp. If you have a speaker rated 750 continuous and 2000 on peaks, running it with a 700watt amp is far more dangerous than running it with a 3000 watt amp. If the 700 watt amp clips, its not going to stay at 700 watts. It can put out 10 times its rated power in the form of dirty watts. Using a 3000 watt amp assures that you dont clip and has the added benefit of being really really clean and punchy. A speaker tells you when you're nearing the limit because non-linear motions have rising distortion. More power=cleaner tighter bass. When I put the 15 in the hummer with this amp, I was told it would blow up. Well 3 years later with playing Korn as loud as I can stand, its fine. Whats best is if it did blow up, its 200 bucks, not 500, not 700. In the house for movies, I run the XTI4000's at 3200 watts bridged into each sub.....no smoke seen in 3 years. I've even seen the clip lights during explosions.

I will post picks of the JL box when I get a chance to take a few but for now, I have these so you know I have real first hand knowledge of the Alpine 15 which I think is the biggest bargain in car or home audio. I can afford ANYTHING car audio has to offer and I chose to have 4 subs running this cheap 15 that is tight, deep, and handles way more power than its rated for.

My kid playing black ops on the 16 foot screen with bass from the alipines that is flat to 15Hz in house:

A close-up of the sub box (one in each front corner) that weighs 140lbs because its 1 1/2 Thick with a 2.25" thick front baffle. The box not flexing contributes to tight bass. f you cant make it thick you brace the crap out of it. If it flexes, it makes the bass muddy.

The hummer:

The ported box in the Hummer:

The Alpine Type R 15 in that box:

Living room:

The 1000 watt powered sub running a Type R 15 behind the couch in that room:


Sorry for the long winded post but I hate when people comment on what they dont have, used in the wrong box, used without break-in, or worse yet, when they just repeat BS they read on the net.

JL review in a few weeks..........

Spinmonster

I just wanted to say that I'm sure you have tons of credible experience but I feel its important for you to tell people that the high SQ sub you mention here can sound really really bad if its in a poorly built box or the wrong size box. The same speaker will sound way different in various boxes and not everyone should be running a sealed 2 cubic foot box especially if they are running two such speakers in a sealed box when you get a 3db bump in efficiency porting one of them in the right box.

I have never heard a single sealed sub that I thought went deep in comparison to a ported box 15 in a car. They all start off life down 12db at 20hz. Yes the transfer function of the car lifts the low end but it does that for the ported alignment too. If its flat to 20 on its own then you can reduce the low end to conserve amp power making much higher SPL at 15 to 20 HZ.

You know this but a lot of guys dont. I know most people cant fit 4 cubic foot boxes, but when I see guys porting a 15 in a 2 or 2.5 cubic foot box so they cant fit 4 of them, they have no clue what they are leaving on the table if they used 2 in the right box.

I remember ordering 10 jensen 12" subs fir 33 bucks each and all my friends used them in 3.3 cubic foot boxes tuned to 28hz and were setting off car alarms. Even a mediocre speaker in a really great box can sound awesome while the best sub on the planet in the wrong box sounds really bad.

Where you and I are in total agreement is application. Use the right box and the right amp for the right speaker for your goal. If you want silly SPL, ported boxes tuned to high frequencies with amps running low impedance parrallel coils for max wattage. For highest SQ, use a smaller cone (less weight so it starts and stops faster), higher impedance loads, sealed box for .7 Q or overdamped ported boxes with lower tuning frequencies. The range of sound quality a given speaker has in various boxes with various amps is wider than from one speaker to another speaker with all other variables fixed.

Spinmonster

Just a note about excursion:

In a ported/vented box, the speaker itself is actually moving far less distance at the tuning frequency. The port has maximum displacement as it holds the woofer itself from moving as far. This is called the minimum motion point and if you boost that frequency, it doesnt use up excursion much at all. The limit is then thermal.

If a potential buyer wants to know what results different speakers have in comparison to each other, they can download WinISD for free and model the alignments for different boxes, speakers and even boost to see what results they can get. A given speaker can make 15db more at 30HZ just by going in a vented box. Thats free deep bass because its near the tuning frequency (less excursion) and less amplifier power because the speaker is up 15db on its own. This allows you to pull 20, 30, and 45hz down on your EQ to get a flat in car response. Pulling back 12-15db at these deep frequencies saves big power.

I was surprised to find a 10 in a ported box has more output at 20Hz than a sealed 15 in the same size box. Its great software to mess around with. I've used WinIsd and Blaubox for 30 years now. If tuned to below the FS frequency of the driver, the bass is really tight.

iWon

iTrader: (13)

Yeah I was talking about the newest model of the Type R. They look amazing for the money, now the challenge is to find a pair for 200 shipped. I need 2 ohm subs to match my amp (MRP-M1000) 1000w RMS @2ohms, only 600w RMS at 4 ohms. It sucks because I have 7 type R's laying in my spare bedroom, all are the 4 ohm version >.<

Spinmonster

If you run at 4 ohms with a huge ported box, you gain 12db at 20hz but only lose 2db due to 600watts vs 1000watts and the net is +10 at 20hz and about +4 at 30hz so its louder with the 600watts, not to mention that its tighter from the higher damping factor by running 4 ohms.

Running two 4 ohm subs is 2 ohms.

iWon

iTrader: (13)

So I can use 4ohm subs with my amp? Each sub is 600w RMS... my amp only pushes 600rms at 4 ohms, so that would only be 300rms to each sub. The box I have is big, but sealed. It's a kee audio ttop box.

dragonrage

It's not that the port keeps the driver from moving... Ported boxes are simply most efficient around tuning frequency, though under the tuning frequency, the suspension will unload and it becomes quite dangerous to the driver if you don't highpass at the tuning frequency. Also, the port can reinforce the sound if designed correctly (and it can also cause phase problems). I don't think ported boxes have much use in car audio, personally. You either tune them low and get your deep bass but they then suck at the upper end, or you tune them for 35-40Hz which is good for most music but won't get deep without damaging your driver (highpass necessary).

Spinmonster

The air in the port most certainly does minimize the woofer's motion at the tuning frequency. No it doesnt hold it still. It wouldnt make any sound if it did. As an example in this link, there is a test of a ported speaker and fig5 shows each driver's output. You can see the woofer has minimal motion at the tuning frequency and it shows as a dramatic drop in amplitude from the woofer itself with the port making nearly all the sound at the tuning frequency.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/a...r-measurements

I can add a ton of links from Vance Dickason, ect but whats the point?

If it sounded better with a small sealed box, I'd have it in my truck. I tried this and every other sub I've used in many different sized sealed boxes. For the 15, I started with a 2.7cu' box and then added bracing to shrink the internal volume down to 2 cubic feet. You either get a .7Q with no power handling or you get a .78Q with garbage sound but its loud....at 50hz.

To each his own. It comes down to taste but I could never live with what I've heard sealed. I respect your likes/dislikes.

I posted to tell the OP to judge the Type R's or any speaker in different boxes because they sound dramatically different. Having tested all of the above from ported to sealed, I know first hand that the vast mojority of people posting on the net just repeat what they read.

Thanks for sharing.

Spinmonster

If you have two 4 ohm subs, in parallel, they are 2 ohms.

dragonrage

I am aware of the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook. I design home audio speakers and have been active on DIYAudio and AVSForum's DIY section. (My current speakers are three-ways custom designed and built by me using the Adire Audio Extremis 6.8, 2xHiVi M4N, and a Vifa XT19 in an MTMW configuration.)

I checked your link to see what you were talking about, and that can be explained with a combination of two factors which jive with what I said before:

A) The system is most efficient at the tuning frequency due to the output of the port, meaning that with proper crossover design, the speaker won't need as much excursion to reach the overall response that you want

B) The crossover / natural slope of the driver has actually placed the tuning frequency below the F3 point, so of course.

Notice, if you will, that at the tuning frequency, the output from the port is equal to the output of the driver. I will admit that it may have been incorrect for me to call you wrong, as I think you may simply be considering the same phenomenon from a different point of view. However, my explanation was also not wrong. Notice, also, that the excursion goes up quite a bit under the tuning frequency, even though the output has dropped a good bit at that point. This is why you must tune low to get deep bass. I do not believe that tuning very low is good for the majority of music. I believe that, for most music, tuning in the 30-40Hz range produces the best output for a subwoofer, but that will limit the lower bass extension. I believe sealed to avoid this problem, though sealed is somewhat less efficient overall. Again, it also avoids the phase issues between the port and drivers, especially in a cramped space like a car.

Do I think ported sounds bad? No, of course not. The tower speakers that I built are ported, too.