MrBluGruv

Hello all.

I have an '02 Camaro SS with the Monsoon audio system. I've recently upgraded my radio to a Kenwood DPX-308U unit (with the help of the DoubleD double-din bezel), and have of course found that the bass response is fairly terrible still.

Looking through Kee Audio's site got me thinking, and I've been eyeing the CDT HD-M6 mid-woofer as a replacement for my sail panel speakers in the hopes of getting a better bass response (you know, better than the practically nothing that is present now.)

Given my head unit has a peak output of 50W and RMS of 22W (as per specs from Kenwood through Crutchfield) at 4-8Ohms (as per specs directly from Kenwood), and the CDT HD-M6 mid-woofer is rated 300W peak/150W RMS at 4Ohms, do you believe it would deliver a better bass response and still be an efficient/effective replacement speaker?

Points for consideration:
1.)I'm not looking for MAJOR volume levels, I'd just like to actually hear and feel a decent bass presence when I'm listening at a comfortable level for driving. Basically, I want to tell there is bass even if I'm trying to hold a conversation without shouting.

2.)I'd like to avoid a secondary small amp for the sail panel speakers, I just want a simple drop-in solution and the advertised response range on the HD-M6 looks very appealing.


I'd appreciate any thoughts on the matter. I'm (obviously, I'd imagine) not particularly experienced on this subject, so I would love to be enlightened on anything I am wrong about as well.

Thanks.

VIP1

Do you have the factory Monsoon amp? How did you connect the new radio? Is it still connected to the stock wiring (meaning the stock amp is retained) or did you do some re-wiring?

If you still have the stock Monsoon amp and its still connected to the sail panel speakers then the new headunit's wattage rating isn't as important since its the amp that will power the speakers.

The stock Monsoon amp does nicely with appropriately matched aftermarket speakers. You should notice an improvement. Not bass-shaking major, but still noticeable.

However, I'm not familiar with that particular model CDT. Is that one of the recommendations on Kee Audio's site? I know they have some decent packages there.

MrBluGruv

Indeed, I have the factory Monsoon amp still and the Kenwood head unit is adapted to the factory wiring harness.


The particular sub I'm looking at is the second selection from the top on this page:
http://keeaudio.com/cdtaudiosubwoofers.html

It's the single-voice-coil HD-6MSUB.

I'm totally fine if the subs don't rattle my car apart. I just want to be able to hear bass without it sounding like it's tearing through the cones in those factory sail panel speakers.

Disarmer

A mid-woofer will not provide the bass you are looking for. Mid-woofers are designed to provide exactly what their name implies... middle range frequencies. If you are wanting better bass response, I would suggest looking at the 6.5" subwoofers suggested on the previously mentioned website (Kee Audio). Also, if you retained the factory amp, the 22rms on your headunit does not matter at all. Simply use the power specifications from the monsoon amp. Last, but not least... no, a 150rms speaker will not do well off such small power. You should try and get as close as possible to matching powers.

MrBluGruv

I'm not sure if the mid-woofer description was a misnomer or not, I've been looking a lot of places at that specific model and some refer to it as that but the Kee Audio page refers to them as subwoofers.

He also has a model called CM-6LSUB that has lower power ratings (80W RMS) but the response range and impedance specs are the same.

Assuming these are genuinely intended to be subwoofers and those different power specs, would that be a better buy? Or am I just genuinely out of luck to try to get anything decent out of those sail panels?

Disarmer

If you have a small amount of power, I would suggest getting a speaker that requires less power. Underpowering a speaker will ultimately just not please you. The 150rms rating means it needs 150rms watts in order to perform as designed. If you have less power, you should strive to find a speaker that requires less power to operate, as it will sound better. In your case, a speaker that requires only 80 watts, will more than likely outperform the speaker that requires more wattage. (Note: I haven't looked in depth at the two speakers in question... just stating facts from my experience in car audio about speakers in general)

Also, a midwoofer is designed specifically for mid-range frequencies. The area in between your subwoofer and your tweeters. It's generally the 6.5" "woofer" sitting behind the tweeter in a coaxial speaker. They can be bought without the tweeter, specifically as midwoofers. A subwoofer, regardless of its size, is specifically designed differently to be able to play the lowest frequencies better than your typical midwoofer.

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

The terms "mid-woofer", "mid-bass", etc. have no standard meaning and should not be used to determine if a speaker is appropriate for your system. Ian has used the terms in the most descriptive manner so his site is a good guideline but always check the specs of the speaker to confirm.

In this case, the HD-M6 "mid-woofer" has a frequency range from 10-4000 Hz which makes it a true subwoofer with an extended upper frequency range that makes it somewhat of a combination midrange and subwoofer. The CM-6LSUB is a more traditional sub with a frequency range of 10-1000 Hz.

As far as power goes, the quoted ratings are not minimum power levels - they're RMS maximums. The speakers don't "require" those levels of power, it's the most continuous power they can handle. There is no reason you can't use the higher rated speaker running at a lower power level. True, when speakers occasionally have a minimum power level specified, they generally don't sound as good with less than the minimum power. But if that were true of all speakers, you could never turn down the volume (reduce the power) without the speakers sounding worse.

VIP1

Thanks for chiming in WhiteBird00, I ran out of how much I can help. You know more about this than I do.

MrBluGruv

Thank you all for chiming in, you've given me a lot to think about.


So WhiteBird00, given what you are saying, either of those options would make for a nice replacement to actually have a bass presence without overdriving the speakers in the sail panels? It is frustratingly absent in stock form.

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

Actually, even the inexpensive Bazooka subs on Ian's site will give you much better bass than the stock speakers. No matter what you do, the sail panel speakers will not be equivalent to a larger sub in the back. But if you just want crisper and somewhat stronger bass response then any of the subs we have discussed will do the job.

MrBluGruv

Interesting, thank you.

I don't know if these particular examples mean much to you, but prior to this Camaro I owned a Mercury Marauder and an '02 Mitsubishi Galant, and I'm sad to say the factory systems in both of those cars (yes, even the Mitsubishi) blows this one out of the water. I think if I could hit the bass presence that even the Marauder had, I'd be happy, and I'm pretty sure the "sub" that that car was advertised to have was just a 6x10 or a 6.5 that just received low freq's with a dedicated amp to give it more power.


Again, thank you everyone that posted. I feel better about making this purchase.

Grim Crow

To the OP, I posed this question a little while ago but with a possible solution being the mtx stealth sub. I wanted some more bass, but nothing too expensive. Don't need it to be a gangbanger just want certain types of music to sound better. so here is my thread which in the end I cancelled the mtx sub order and yesterday spoked to Ian Kee and my new setup should be on the way. Not sure if your wanting an extra speaker in the back, but the stealth sub makes use of an area of the trunk normally not used, plus it's almost plug and play setup, just gotta run the wires. Also Kee told me that the setup he sold me has a control *** so that I can turn it down or up as I please.

https://ls1tech.com/forums/stereo-el...rform-sub.html

45Colt45

My $.02,
You will ALWAYS, get less than satisfactory performance when you under power a speaker. I don't understand the technical aspect of the it but you can get TONS of info at DIYMA.com. I am currently re configuring the entire system in my wife's Camaro and am going through this. If you run the midwoofer at 30-40 watts from the Monsoon Amp, you will have lackluster performance and you will ultimately shorten the life of the speaker (if you are under powered and are cranking the stereo system on a regular basis). On top of this, the speakers in the sails are very close to your head, so the Monsoon amp is programed to not power them as much, you might be better off by disconnecting the rear cargo speaker's wires and using those for the rear sails with your new speakers.

I think that you should definitely get an amp and a sub, but that's just me.

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

Unfortunately, that view doesn't match the facts. Look at it this way... it takes ten times as much power to double the volume output (or 1/10th the power to cut volume in half). If speakers only work well at their rated power, you would have to run your speakers at their rated RMS maximum all the time to keep good sound quality and make them last. Nobody wants to do that (at least not if they value their hearing). So you turn down your 300W amp to half volume and you're now only sending 30W to the speakers. Do you really expect sound quality to suffer?

The reason this "myth" gets repeated so often is that it has some basis in fact. The problem isn't that you're running a speaker at less than its rated power handling. The problem is that people turn up the power on an under-powered amp past the point where it starts clipping. Clipping can destroy a speaker very quickly. So the problem with under-powering a speaker isn't the speaker, it's the amp. But there's absolutely no reason why you can't run a speaker at power levels significantly below its rating as long as you don't try to overdrive the amp it's connected to.

45Colt45

I absolutely agree with this, but... You will always get better sound and better performance when your wattage matches or is close to matching. MORE damage will occur from overpowering a speaker and driving it hard, but more often an under powered speaker is driven hard and damaged. I am not trying to be argumentative, my main point is if you want the sound, put more watts to the speaker, it will give you clarity and volume... because it was designed for that wattage. If you keep the factory power and over time you crank the system, it will damage the speaker over time.

This is what Polk Audio has to say on the subject:


This is What Crutchfield has to say on the topic:

How powerful an amp do I need?
Choose an amplifier whose power output is rated at least 70% to 125% of the power handling of the speakers you'll be amplifying. Make sure you're comparing the RMS power ratings of both the amp and speakers. And remember — it's better to overpower your speakers a little than to send them too little power.

Power Handling (RMS)
The maximum continuous sine wave power that can be dissipated by a speaker without failure, measured in watts RMS. Most speakers fail for one of two main reasons:
1. A speaker is driven with too much power, beyond its rating, and it overheats.
2. The amplifier is driven into clipping, producing square wave distortion that destroys the driver.

MrBluGruv

I'm trying to wrap my head around this...

It feels like you are saying I should have the ideal setup only if I'm going to bother at all really, and that setup being the amp and speakers are perfectly power-matched so that when driven full-tilt it doesn't over-drive but still gets the maximum efficiency out of the speaker.

What's making it difficult for me to understand though is, if I understand this correctly, when the amp can't even match the RMS limit of a speaker, by itself it couldn't kill it, and so long as my head unit isn't driving the amp to the point of clipping, it wouldn't contribute to a problem either. Do I have this wrong? If I don't, why would I worry about being under-powered on the amp side of the speaker (given, like I said, I don't push the input level to the amp to the point of clipping)? Also, kind of aside from that question, what actual decibel level are we talking here before any combination of a.) the head unit is overdriving the amp and b.)the amp is overdriving the speakers? Is that point going to be way above the threshold of a sensible listening level?

I guess to sum up my block here, I can understand where in theory all of that makes sense, but in this particular case, are we still in the realm of reality or have we gone beyond it outside of the practical world into pure theory?

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

That's a valid question and the answer is "it depends". We are drifting somewhat into theory vs. practical but the discussion has value if you are planning to keep the Monsoon amp. The factory amp produces about 240 watts RMS (GM rates it at 500 watts but that is peak output... and also optimistic).

The factory head unit produces distortion at a fairly low power level. The amp will pass that along to the speakers which is one of the reasons the factory speakers don't last long. At 240 watts, the Monsoon amp is relatively under-powered and it's not difficult to drive it to clipping. You normally wouldn't do that while inside the car - it would be very loud. But you might if you like to listen to the stereo from outside the car (cruise-ins, etc.).

With the factory system, it really doesn't matter if you use an 80 watt speaker or a 150 watt speaker. Both are well beyond the power capabilities of the amp (remember, that 240 watts is divided into eight channels). You don't have to worry about over-driving either speaker. Running either speaker at the 30-40 watts available from the Monsoon amp will sound fine. Your primary concern would be over-driving the amp (or head unit) into clipping which will destroy either speaker eventually. Maintain your volume at a level where you can still hear other things around you (horns, ambulances, etc.) and you won't have to worry.

Now, if you were planning to power the speakers using an aftermarket amp, it would be best to match the speaker power handling to the amp output as closely as possible - since you're buying new equipment anyway.

MrBluGruv

My main goal is to avoid an extra amp if at all possible. I don't want to continuously sink more and more money into audio equipment.

I've tried searching for the power output of my head unit, and all I can find is 50W peak, 22W RMS. Given that the amp itself wouldn't have the power to damage the speakers, would it be reasonable to think that my head unit could easily overdrive the monsoon amp? (I have a feeling I'm beginning to no longer have a good grasp on what this all means.)

One more question came to me today:
I have been reading in a few places that because the sail panel speakers are midwoofers from the factory, they do not have good low-frequency bass response. Was this an actual limitation of the factory speakers or is there some sort of crossover present in the line to the sail panel speakers that removes audio below a certain frequency? If it's the latter, I'm afraid it would be pointless for me to buy a 6.5" speaker with a broad frequency range response as it would never be fed that frequency band to begin with. :/

WhiteBird00

iTrader: (4)

You need not worry about over-driving the Monsoon amp with your head unit unless you crank it up to try to rattle the windows. The Monsoon amp is under-powered by today's standards but it is quite capable for what it does and produces a clean signal as long as it gets clean input.

The response from the sail panel subs is limited by the cheap factory speakers rather than the amp. The Monsoon amp filters the signal to those channels internally (rather than using an inline filter like the tweeters). The frequency range from the amp goes well down into the subwoofer range. That's one of the reasons people find a noticeable improvement in bass by just replacing the speakers.

MrBluGruv

With that info, I feel perfectly confident now. Thank you.

Now, off to snag some speakers.