Another endless vibration thread..
08-04-2010, 01:34 AM
#1
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Another endless vibration thread.. Ok guys, I understand people have had threads like this before. But I'm at my wits end.
Here goes. I've had a vibration at or around 60+ for awhile now. At 60 it shakes the wheel. Above that it levels off and starts shaking the whole car. I've replaced the shocks, the inner and outer tie rods, upper and lower ball joints, alignment, had the wheels balanced many times including on a Roadforce machine. Ive got an adjustable panhard bar, LCA's with relocation brackets, and new sway bars. All installed properly and vibration was there before any of this work was done.
Still, always the same issue. Oddly enough, after a balance, it seems to be improved if not gone completely, but then it just comes back after a week with a vengeance. The wheels are aftermarket from 6LE. I was told from him awhile ago and the manufacturer (who I called) that centering rings are not needed. Truth is, I believe the vibration started with this wheel/tire combo.
Could it be a bent rim? The roadforce machine didn't pick up anything of the ordinary. In fact, most of the wheels didnt even need much weight except for the rear passenger. It has quite a few double stacked in one area. The rest have only one or two weights in comparison to a heavily counter weighted crap job from a non roadforce balance.
I don't know what to do. Lastly, and maybe this sounds crazy, but I swear every few times I drive the car, the vibration isn't there at all. Almost like it comes and goes. Is this possible?
What am I missing gentlemen (and ladies who are probably smarter than me
)?
I love my car, its a daily driver, please help me smooth it out!
Thank you!
Here goes. I've had a vibration at or around 60+ for awhile now. At 60 it shakes the wheel. Above that it levels off and starts shaking the whole car. I've replaced the shocks, the inner and outer tie rods, upper and lower ball joints, alignment, had the wheels balanced many times including on a Roadforce machine. Ive got an adjustable panhard bar, LCA's with relocation brackets, and new sway bars. All installed properly and vibration was there before any of this work was done.
Still, always the same issue. Oddly enough, after a balance, it seems to be improved if not gone completely, but then it just comes back after a week with a vengeance. The wheels are aftermarket from 6LE. I was told from him awhile ago and the manufacturer (who I called) that centering rings are not needed. Truth is, I believe the vibration started with this wheel/tire combo.
Could it be a bent rim? The roadforce machine didn't pick up anything of the ordinary. In fact, most of the wheels didnt even need much weight except for the rear passenger. It has quite a few double stacked in one area. The rest have only one or two weights in comparison to a heavily counter weighted crap job from a non roadforce balance.
I don't know what to do. Lastly, and maybe this sounds crazy, but I swear every few times I drive the car, the vibration isn't there at all. Almost like it comes and goes. Is this possible?
What am I missing gentlemen (and ladies who are probably smarter than me
)?I love my car, its a daily driver, please help me smooth it out!
Thank you!
Last edited by AdmAnt13; 09-06-2010 at 09:47 PM.
08-04-2010, 02:14 AM
#2
Man, this sucks. If rim is bent it should show on machine for sure. Definitely don't need rings (I don't have them on my car or Sommer's car or about 5 others with same rims).
Have you checked your drive train (drive shaft, tranny mount, etc...)? Definitely sounds like something that is rotating (wheels, DS, rear, etc...) as opposed to suspension.
Have you checked your drive train (drive shaft, tranny mount, etc...)? Definitely sounds like something that is rotating (wheels, DS, rear, etc...) as opposed to suspension.
08-04-2010, 07:25 AM
#3
If it shakes the wheel, it has to be in the front and it has to be rotational. Wheels, tires, rotors, or hub. The easiest (and cheapest) thing to do first is swap front wheels with a friend and drive on them for a few days. I would bet it is a wheel or tire, 9 times out of 10 that's the problem....
08-04-2010, 07:03 PM
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Rotors are newish. Doubt they have any issues but its possible. No vibrations while braking.
Tires are as new as the rims, about 7 months old. The tires are a little small for the front rims as there was a mix up with the rim size and tire sizes that I got. The shop "stretched the smaller tires over the wider rims in the front. Could that be an issue?
Basically, the rims is 9.5" wide, the tire is a 245/40ZR-18.
I guess I'll try the swap. I have an old set lying around I can throw on and try out. I doubt the rims are bent, but I wonder if the tires are holding up..
Tires are as new as the rims, about 7 months old. The tires are a little small for the front rims as there was a mix up with the rim size and tire sizes that I got. The shop "stretched the smaller tires over the wider rims in the front. Could that be an issue?
Basically, the rims is 9.5" wide, the tire is a 245/40ZR-18.
I guess I'll try the swap. I have an old set lying around I can throw on and try out. I doubt the rims are bent, but I wonder if the tires are holding up..
08-05-2010, 11:19 AM
#7
Something that is often overlooked.... the air in the tires.
"wet" air is a huge issue with vibration. If the air has water in it the balance will get thrown off (and at different speeds). The shake can even come and go at times, and get worse at times, for instance when you turn the wheel.
I don't know if this is the problem or not, but it's a possibility.
"wet" air is a huge issue with vibration. If the air has water in it the balance will get thrown off (and at different speeds). The shake can even come and go at times, and get worse at times, for instance when you turn the wheel.
I don't know if this is the problem or not, but it's a possibility.
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08-06-2010, 12:30 AM
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I have a similar problem. Previously had factory 10 spoke SS rims with 275/40/17 tires and never had any vibration issues at any speed. Then I bought some replica 18" C5 Z06 wheels and 275/35/18 BFG G-Force tires 2 years ago and every since I have had vibration at 60+ MPH. Wheels/tires were then road force balanced, hub centric rings are not required and I still have the same vibration. Just over the weekend I swapped out my 2 year old brembo blanks for some centric black coated rotors (I hated looking at the rusty hats of the brembos) and today I brought the car up to 65MPH (in a 45MPH zone) and didn't notice any vibration. I'll update the thread later when I can actually get the car on the freeway and check it out again. I'm sure the vibration will come back since it started with the wheel/tire combination but lets hope not.
08-06-2010, 01:00 PM
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It's possible that your tires were cold and flat spotted when they were balanced which will give an erroneous reading to the balancing equipment. I just bought a 99 T/A with tires that would vibrate the steering wheel quite noticeably above 50 to 60 MPH until the tires warmed up. The vibration would disappear and I would forget about it until the next time I drove it with cold tires. While reviewing the TSB's on this car I came across this one. This service bulletin may help you out.
Bulletin No.: 00-03-10-006E
Date: November 03, 2009
Subject: Information on Tire Radial Force Variation (RFV)
- Before measuring tires on equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700, the vehicle MUST be driven a minimum of 16 km (10 mi) to ensure removal of any flat-spotting. Refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 03-03-10-007E - Tire/Wheel Characteristics of GM Original Equipment Tires.
- Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 MUST be calibrated prior to measuring tire/wheel assemblies for each vehicle.
The purpose of this bulletin is to provide guidance to GM dealers when using tire force variation measurement equipment, such as the Hunter GSP9700. This type of equipment can be a valuable tool in diagnosing vehicle ride concerns. The most common ride concern involving tire radial force variation is highway speed shake on smooth roads.
Tire related smooth road highway speed shake can be caused by three conditions: imbalance, out of round and tire force variation. These three conditions are not necessarily related. All three conditions must be addressed.
Imbalance is normally addressed first, because it is the simpler of the three to correct. Off-vehicle, two plane dynamic wheel balancers are readily available and can accurately correct any imbalance. Balancer calibration and maintenance, proper attachment of the wheel to the balancer, and proper balance weights, are all factors required for a quality balance. However, a perfectly balanced tire/wheel assembly can still be "oval shaped" and cause a vibration.
If a vibration or shake still exists after balancing, any out of round conditions, of the wheel, and force variation conditions of the tire, must be addressed. Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 can address both (it is also a wheel balancer).
Tire radial force vibration (RFV) can be defined as the amount of stiffness variation the tire will produce in one revolution under a constant load. Radial force variation is what the vehicle feels because the load (weight) of the vehicle is always on the tires. Although free runout of tires (not under load) is not always a good indicator of a smooth ride, it is critical that total tire/wheel assembly runout be within specification.
Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 loads the tire, similar to on the vehicle, and measures radial force variation of the tire/wheel assembly. Note that the wheel is affecting the tire's RFV measurement at this point. To isolate the wheel, its runout must be measured. This can be easily done on the Hunter, without the need to set up dial indicators. If the wheel meets the runout specification, the tire's RFV can then be addressed.
After measuring the tire/wheel assembly under load, and the wheel alone, the machine then calculates (predicts) the radial force variation of the tire. However, because this is a prediction that can include mounting inaccuracies, and the load wheel is much smaller in diameter than used in tire production, this type of service equipment should NOT be used to audit new tires. Rather, it should be used as a service diagnostic tool to minimize radial force variation of the tire/wheel assembly.
Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 does an excellent job of measuring wheel runout, and of finding the low point of the wheel (for runout) and the high point of the tire (for radial force variation). This allows the tire to be matched mounted to the wheel for lowest tire/wheel assembly force variation.
The machine will simplify this process into easy steps. The following assembly radial force variation numbers should be used as a guide:
If match mounting tires to in-spec wheels produces assembly values higher than these, tire replacement may be necessary. Replacing tires at lower values will probably mean good tires are being condemned. Because tires can sometimes become temporarily flat-spotted, which will affect force variation, it is important that the vehicle be driven at least 16 km (10 mi) prior to measuring. Tire pressure must also be adjusted to the usage pressure on the vehicle's tire placard prior to measuring.
Most GM vehicles will tolerate radial force variation up to these levels. However, some vehicles are more sensitive, and may require lower levels. Also, there are other tire parameters that equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 cannot measure that may be a factor. In such cases, TAC should be contacted for further instructions.
Important
- When mounting a GM wheel to a wheel balancer/force variation machine, always use the wheel's center pilot hole. This is the primary centering mechanism on all GM wheels; the bolt holes are secondary. Usually a back cone method to the machine should be used. For added accuracy and repeatability, a flange plate should be used to clamp the wheel onto the cone and machine. This system is offered by all balancer manufacturers in GM's dealer program.
- Any type of service equipment that removes tread rubber by grinding, buffing, or truing is NOT recommended, and may void the tire warranty. However, tires may have been ground by the tire company as part of their tire manufacturing process. This is a legitimate procedure.
Bulletin No.: 00-03-10-006E
Date: November 03, 2009
Subject: Information on Tire Radial Force Variation (RFV)
- Before measuring tires on equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700, the vehicle MUST be driven a minimum of 16 km (10 mi) to ensure removal of any flat-spotting. Refer to Corporate Bulletin Number 03-03-10-007E - Tire/Wheel Characteristics of GM Original Equipment Tires.
- Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 MUST be calibrated prior to measuring tire/wheel assemblies for each vehicle.
The purpose of this bulletin is to provide guidance to GM dealers when using tire force variation measurement equipment, such as the Hunter GSP9700. This type of equipment can be a valuable tool in diagnosing vehicle ride concerns. The most common ride concern involving tire radial force variation is highway speed shake on smooth roads.
Tire related smooth road highway speed shake can be caused by three conditions: imbalance, out of round and tire force variation. These three conditions are not necessarily related. All three conditions must be addressed.
Imbalance is normally addressed first, because it is the simpler of the three to correct. Off-vehicle, two plane dynamic wheel balancers are readily available and can accurately correct any imbalance. Balancer calibration and maintenance, proper attachment of the wheel to the balancer, and proper balance weights, are all factors required for a quality balance. However, a perfectly balanced tire/wheel assembly can still be "oval shaped" and cause a vibration.
If a vibration or shake still exists after balancing, any out of round conditions, of the wheel, and force variation conditions of the tire, must be addressed. Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 can address both (it is also a wheel balancer).
Tire radial force vibration (RFV) can be defined as the amount of stiffness variation the tire will produce in one revolution under a constant load. Radial force variation is what the vehicle feels because the load (weight) of the vehicle is always on the tires. Although free runout of tires (not under load) is not always a good indicator of a smooth ride, it is critical that total tire/wheel assembly runout be within specification.
Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 loads the tire, similar to on the vehicle, and measures radial force variation of the tire/wheel assembly. Note that the wheel is affecting the tire's RFV measurement at this point. To isolate the wheel, its runout must be measured. This can be easily done on the Hunter, without the need to set up dial indicators. If the wheel meets the runout specification, the tire's RFV can then be addressed.
After measuring the tire/wheel assembly under load, and the wheel alone, the machine then calculates (predicts) the radial force variation of the tire. However, because this is a prediction that can include mounting inaccuracies, and the load wheel is much smaller in diameter than used in tire production, this type of service equipment should NOT be used to audit new tires. Rather, it should be used as a service diagnostic tool to minimize radial force variation of the tire/wheel assembly.
Equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 does an excellent job of measuring wheel runout, and of finding the low point of the wheel (for runout) and the high point of the tire (for radial force variation). This allows the tire to be matched mounted to the wheel for lowest tire/wheel assembly force variation.
The machine will simplify this process into easy steps. The following assembly radial force variation numbers should be used as a guide:
If match mounting tires to in-spec wheels produces assembly values higher than these, tire replacement may be necessary. Replacing tires at lower values will probably mean good tires are being condemned. Because tires can sometimes become temporarily flat-spotted, which will affect force variation, it is important that the vehicle be driven at least 16 km (10 mi) prior to measuring. Tire pressure must also be adjusted to the usage pressure on the vehicle's tire placard prior to measuring.
Most GM vehicles will tolerate radial force variation up to these levels. However, some vehicles are more sensitive, and may require lower levels. Also, there are other tire parameters that equipment such as the Hunter GSP9700 cannot measure that may be a factor. In such cases, TAC should be contacted for further instructions.
Important
- When mounting a GM wheel to a wheel balancer/force variation machine, always use the wheel's center pilot hole. This is the primary centering mechanism on all GM wheels; the bolt holes are secondary. Usually a back cone method to the machine should be used. For added accuracy and repeatability, a flange plate should be used to clamp the wheel onto the cone and machine. This system is offered by all balancer manufacturers in GM's dealer program.
- Any type of service equipment that removes tread rubber by grinding, buffing, or truing is NOT recommended, and may void the tire warranty. However, tires may have been ground by the tire company as part of their tire manufacturing process. This is a legitimate procedure.
08-07-2010, 11:48 AM
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Wow thanks for all the help and information from all of you. It drives me nuts and it does seem like something variable is happening. If the tires are warmed up, it does get better. I wonder if there was a flat spot, or if there is any water vapor in the air while balancing. The machine is top notch, but the dealership operating the machine seems a little moronic. The only other road force balancer in the area belongs to a national chain, Merchants Tire. They may have more experience with aftermarket rims than the GM dealer. Perhaps I should show them the bulletin and tell them my issues and see what they can do..
My other concern is this. Because the front tires were thinner than usual for the rims, the original people who mounted the tires (Napa) had to use a ton, I mean a ton of "wheel wax" to create a seal so that they could inflate the tire. I really wonder if some of that fell inside the tire while they were trying to get it to inflate (took them over and hour per each tire..) and could be causing my problem. My fear is, if they deflate the tires to check, who knows if they will be able to inflate them again.. Perhaps I should just wear these out and wait for new ones. Unfortunately, these have a lot of life left, so who knows when that will be.
My other concern is this. Because the front tires were thinner than usual for the rims, the original people who mounted the tires (Napa) had to use a ton, I mean a ton of "wheel wax" to create a seal so that they could inflate the tire. I really wonder if some of that fell inside the tire while they were trying to get it to inflate (took them over and hour per each tire..) and could be causing my problem. My fear is, if they deflate the tires to check, who knows if they will be able to inflate them again.. Perhaps I should just wear these out and wait for new ones. Unfortunately, these have a lot of life left, so who knows when that will be.
09-03-2010, 10:26 PM
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Sorry guys. I haven't had any time whstsoever to swap new wheels on the car to see if the wheel/tire combo is the culprit or not. The second I do I will post back. Maybe this 3 day weekend will afford me the time. Stay patient if you can guys and ill produce
09-04-2010, 01:36 PM
#15
I'll give you a run down off what happened to me before i gave up.
Whole car vibe at all speeds, especially around 70mph, but seemed more like a drivetrain problem but it seemed temperature related so i assumed tires.
Had $ to spend so i used this problem as an excuse to upgrade a lot of stuff. I wasn't real concerned about the vibe at the time, i had bigger priorities...
Installed;
Drilled slotted rotors with hawk pads
koni 4/4's with eibach pros
double adj phr
new sway bar end links, front and rear
front end alingment
Car still vibrated. FYI i wasn't replacing those parts to eliminate the vibe, i just wanted to tell you everything that has been done that DIDN't effect the vibe.
So then i decided to focus on the vibe problem. Since it seemed temp related, i assumed it was my cheap tires. Rotated to seem if the problem moved any, just to re-affirm my assumption. No change. Had them balanced at 2 different shops, no change. Borrowed a set from a friend, no change. Put the car on the lift with back wheels installed and ran it up to 60. Rear shook like a ****. Removed wheels and ran again, still shook. To eliminate a f'd up rotor I removed them and ran it again, no change. Had a shop visually check all my drive line from the transmission mount, u joints and anything possible including checking to see if i had tossed a driveshaft weight. No problems. Hell i even got under there with them and i didn't see anything!
Eventually put the car back on stock springs but kept the koni's on. Vibe continued to get worse.
Gave up for a few months until my front end started shaking like tire out of balance. Another oppurtunity for an upgrade. Installed some 17x9.5 TT2.1's with some Nitto 555's and had them road force balanced. No help. Car continued to not only vibe terribly but now it was darting around and hard to keep i a straight line. Replaced inner and outer tie rods and inspected ball joints, wheel bearings, steering column u joint, rack and pinion sway bar mounts; basically everything under the front end. Looked good. Did another alignment at a different shop, no help.
My next thing to check/replace is pull the DS, get it checked for balance and replace the ujoints. Then i might try a different set if rotors.
I've got a few cars and since the weather has been nice most of the summer ive been riding my new chopper. Frankley i've become sick of the car and have left it alone...
Hope my story helps in someway...
Whole car vibe at all speeds, especially around 70mph, but seemed more like a drivetrain problem but it seemed temperature related so i assumed tires.
Had $ to spend so i used this problem as an excuse to upgrade a lot of stuff. I wasn't real concerned about the vibe at the time, i had bigger priorities...
Installed;
Drilled slotted rotors with hawk pads
koni 4/4's with eibach pros
double adj phr
new sway bar end links, front and rear
front end alingment
Car still vibrated. FYI i wasn't replacing those parts to eliminate the vibe, i just wanted to tell you everything that has been done that DIDN't effect the vibe.
So then i decided to focus on the vibe problem. Since it seemed temp related, i assumed it was my cheap tires. Rotated to seem if the problem moved any, just to re-affirm my assumption. No change. Had them balanced at 2 different shops, no change. Borrowed a set from a friend, no change. Put the car on the lift with back wheels installed and ran it up to 60. Rear shook like a ****. Removed wheels and ran again, still shook. To eliminate a f'd up rotor I removed them and ran it again, no change. Had a shop visually check all my drive line from the transmission mount, u joints and anything possible including checking to see if i had tossed a driveshaft weight. No problems. Hell i even got under there with them and i didn't see anything!
Eventually put the car back on stock springs but kept the koni's on. Vibe continued to get worse.
Gave up for a few months until my front end started shaking like tire out of balance. Another oppurtunity for an upgrade. Installed some 17x9.5 TT2.1's with some Nitto 555's and had them road force balanced. No help. Car continued to not only vibe terribly but now it was darting around and hard to keep i a straight line. Replaced inner and outer tie rods and inspected ball joints, wheel bearings, steering column u joint, rack and pinion sway bar mounts; basically everything under the front end. Looked good. Did another alignment at a different shop, no help.
My next thing to check/replace is pull the DS, get it checked for balance and replace the ujoints. Then i might try a different set if rotors.
I've got a few cars and since the weather has been nice most of the summer ive been riding my new chopper. Frankley i've become sick of the car and have left it alone...
Hope my story helps in someway...
09-04-2010, 01:42 PM
#16
I just re read your post. My problem still just comes and goes kinda so it's hard to track down. It sounds like you have done a lot of the same things i did. If it helps, my problem started right after my koni/spring/pad and rotor job. I put my old rotors back on and nothing changed so i eliminated a new rotor was bad.
Maybe we have a problem with a torque converter?
Weird question; how was the car jacked up when the new shocks went on?
Maybe we have a problem with a torque converter?
Weird question; how was the car jacked up when the new shocks went on?
09-04-2010, 03:12 PM
#17
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I finished replacing my rotors, rear calipers, and rotated my tires and the vibration between 55-70MPH seems to have been cut in half. I think my vibration is definitely wheel/tire related since it started right after getting some aftermarket 18 x 9.5 Z06s and BFG G-force tires.
09-05-2010, 06:05 AM
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I went through a similar experience on my car and it turned out to be the pinion nut working slightly loose. There were no other indications that it was loosening. Finally it got scary, after about a year of daily use with plenty of WOT runs, and I knew it had to be the drive shaft by then based on how it vibrated. But my drive shaft is a good one so I was under it checking and found a loose pinion flange. It had always been hard to set pinion angle with that rear. I just swapped rears because I didn't have time to wait on repairs.
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09-06-2010, 03:58 AM
#19
Just stumbled across this thread....It's very interesting. I've just developed a slight vibration (2 weeks ago). Mine is felt between 65-71 mph. I never had it (the vibration) before I backed up and slammed my driver rear rim into a curb in reverse. BTW, the crash into the curb broke my rim. Here's a link to my carnage pics:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/appearanc...93-whoops.html
Here's what I think has happened and might help you guys out. I had a couple of my friends pace me today and look at my new rim...they said its wobbling very slightly, but it had never done that before the accident....I know this because I rebuilt my 10 bolt with Moser axles. It appears that I've bent an axel and THAT might be the reason my car vibrates and why "Sneaky's" up there might too.
I'll be replacing mine in a week or 2 and I'll report back.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/appearanc...93-whoops.html
Here's what I think has happened and might help you guys out. I had a couple of my friends pace me today and look at my new rim...they said its wobbling very slightly, but it had never done that before the accident....I know this because I rebuilt my 10 bolt with Moser axles. It appears that I've bent an axel and THAT might be the reason my car vibrates and why "Sneaky's" up there might too.
I'll be replacing mine in a week or 2 and I'll report back.
09-06-2010, 10:35 AM
#20
I had a bad vibration from about 65-70mph shook the hole car seats,visors & wing mirrors couldn't really be felt through the steering though.
This appeared right after I installed my Konis, things I did.
1: Removed poly trans mount - no difference.
2: new Goodyear GSD3s plus balance, front tires were worn - no noticeable difference.
After coming back from the test station I had an advisory for damaged front driver side brake hose & slight play in both tie rod ends & corroded rear springs, to me they just looked a bit rusty.
3: replaced hoses with braided goodridge lines & bled system this weekend - vibration was still there from a little over 70 but seemed subdued, only managed to take it up to 80ish because of traffic, but vibration seemed to be coming up through the back of the seat, think if we'd gone higher things would gradually start to vibrate more.
Going to replace rod ends & rebuild my calipers, just to rule out anything there, because on jacks my front right wheel spins forever & the left only does about 2 1/2 revolutions & stops dead, I put the front blanks back in & it did the same just to rule out the chance of warping rotors..
This appeared right after I installed my Konis, things I did.
1: Removed poly trans mount - no difference.
2: new Goodyear GSD3s plus balance, front tires were worn - no noticeable difference.
After coming back from the test station I had an advisory for damaged front driver side brake hose & slight play in both tie rod ends & corroded rear springs, to me they just looked a bit rusty.
3: replaced hoses with braided goodridge lines & bled system this weekend - vibration was still there from a little over 70 but seemed subdued, only managed to take it up to 80ish because of traffic, but vibration seemed to be coming up through the back of the seat, think if we'd gone higher things would gradually start to vibrate more.
Going to replace rod ends & rebuild my calipers, just to rule out anything there, because on jacks my front right wheel spins forever & the left only does about 2 1/2 revolutions & stops dead, I put the front blanks back in & it did the same just to rule out the chance of warping rotors..