New LCA & Panhard Bar Questions
12-07-2011, 04:19 PM
#1
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New LCA & Panhard Bar Questions Im getting new LCAs and Panhard bars since im lowering car this week. I just dont know what to go with. Im thinking Founders Performance stuff. Ive heard nothing bad about them and cant complain about their price. My question is should I go with their On-Car Adjustable Lower Control Arms & Panhard Bar Kit Rod/Rod or their Single Adjustable Lower Control Arms & Panhard Rod Kit. My car is a DD and will see some strip time. Id like to get which ever one is quieter. Does anyone have any imput of either of these making noises and or any issues anyone has heard of?
Thanks in advance
Thanks in advance
12-07-2011, 09:25 PM
#2
Rod ends tend to get noisy over time...if quiet is what you seek, get some bars from UMI with roto-joints or the higher quality rod ends like what MWC sells...just be prepared to pay a little more
If you dont mind greasing them often and want to stay in the Founder's price range, get their poly bars. On or off car adjustable is up to you
If you dont mind greasing them often and want to stay in the Founder's price range, get their poly bars. On or off car adjustable is up to you
12-07-2011, 10:53 PM
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We use the same slot loaded chrome-moly rod ends that most of our name brand competitors use.
The biggest thing with poly-urethane is you want to make sure you use a synthetic non petroleum based grease.
The biggest thing with poly-urethane is you want to make sure you use a synthetic non petroleum based grease.
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12-08-2011, 07:25 AM
#8
Founders makes great stuff, this is NOT one of those "you get what you paid for" scenarios with respect to vendors. I have Founders single adjustable LCAs, double adjustable PHB and even a spare set of double adjustable LCAs for when I swap the rear end. Founders makes great pieces, just get Founders pieces and call it a day.
To keep "rod ends" (or Heim Joints as they are called) from making noise, the integrity of the liner needs to be maintained. Liners are easily cut up by road grime/dirt, which is why it starts clunking around and people say rod ends are generally more for track cars. However, there's a company called Seals-it that makes boots for Heim Joints. Keeping dirt out is the key, and I can tell you, I have these boots on every Heim Joint on my suspension. I was concerned about water getting in there, but after installing the RERS3 kits, there's just no way water is seeping into these boots... they are TIGHT on the joint!
One thing you haven't mentioned: if you're lowering the car, do the LCA relocation brackets. Lowering your car makes the LCAs angle upward toward the back of the car. For better traction, you need to lower the axle side of the LCAs... thus, LCA relo brackets. They're inexpensive from Founders, and after install, I found virtually all my wheel hop was eliminated.
To keep "rod ends" (or Heim Joints as they are called) from making noise, the integrity of the liner needs to be maintained. Liners are easily cut up by road grime/dirt, which is why it starts clunking around and people say rod ends are generally more for track cars. However, there's a company called Seals-it that makes boots for Heim Joints. Keeping dirt out is the key, and I can tell you, I have these boots on every Heim Joint on my suspension. I was concerned about water getting in there, but after installing the RERS3 kits, there's just no way water is seeping into these boots... they are TIGHT on the joint!
One thing you haven't mentioned: if you're lowering the car, do the LCA relocation brackets. Lowering your car makes the LCAs angle upward toward the back of the car. For better traction, you need to lower the axle side of the LCAs... thus, LCA relo brackets. They're inexpensive from Founders, and after install, I found virtually all my wheel hop was eliminated.
12-08-2011, 02:01 PM
#10
Actually there is and always will be a "you get what you pay for" when it comes to suspension parts. The only way to cut down cost is to cut down quality/quantity of material or labor.
Examples:
Mild Steel over Chromemoly then wall thickness of material used
Tube adapters- over my years I have seen brands that have such sloppy threads it was like tossing a hot dog down a hallway.
Jam nuts- all though you wouldn't even consider them an issue, but if the threads were not cut well on those they can gall up the threads and come loose over time.
Heim joints- there are so many different heim joints on the market ranging in different price ranges. The cheaper the price the cheaper the quality. We have tried just about all of them and there is a reason we use the ones we use from FK or Aurora. They are by far the best manufacturers for rod ends on the market today. MWC does not use just average run of the mill imported heim joints on our lca's or other components. The ones we use are not metal to metal or kevlar which transmits most of the noise associated with these components. Hence... you do get what you pay for.
Chassis & Rear end bushings- if they are not cut to spec they can fit loose and be sloppy which is were most people hear noise from. This more falls onto the manufacture itself in making sure they know what they are doing.
Tig VS Mig, how they are welded up makes a difference even. Then gets into how well of a quality welder is welding them. Is it a guy making minimum wage at a manufacture company that is sub hired out to do something he doesn't even care about or is it a guy welding them up that has a passion for what he is doing and there might even be a chance the part he is welding on may just end up in his own car.
I am saying this as a person that has used products from about every different manufacture on the market. I have not always been with MWC, you do get what you pay for and take it from someone that has wasted tons of money on sub par parts just to have something after market on my vehicle. Save up and purchase quality, but don't be confused by those saying they have quality and hope you don't do your home work on the product they are actually selling. MWC uses the products that we do for a reason and our track record for performance, quality, and value is as good as it gets. Just because a rod end is made from Chromemoly doesn't mean that it is the best component you can get, and especially considering the application.
You want honest answers don't be afraid to ask us, the difference between us and most is we do not rely on Internet sales, we have one salesman which is me and I don't work off commission and the only reason I am here is because I missed being around this stuff and Eric asked me to help him out on the Internet stuff and logistics. We are a chassis shop that also manufactures suspension items. Eric's goal has always been to only sell what he would be willing to put on his own car and he has stayed very true to that.
Examples:
Mild Steel over Chromemoly then wall thickness of material used
Tube adapters- over my years I have seen brands that have such sloppy threads it was like tossing a hot dog down a hallway.
Jam nuts- all though you wouldn't even consider them an issue, but if the threads were not cut well on those they can gall up the threads and come loose over time.
Heim joints- there are so many different heim joints on the market ranging in different price ranges. The cheaper the price the cheaper the quality. We have tried just about all of them and there is a reason we use the ones we use from FK or Aurora. They are by far the best manufacturers for rod ends on the market today. MWC does not use just average run of the mill imported heim joints on our lca's or other components. The ones we use are not metal to metal or kevlar which transmits most of the noise associated with these components. Hence... you do get what you pay for.
Chassis & Rear end bushings- if they are not cut to spec they can fit loose and be sloppy which is were most people hear noise from. This more falls onto the manufacture itself in making sure they know what they are doing.
Tig VS Mig, how they are welded up makes a difference even. Then gets into how well of a quality welder is welding them. Is it a guy making minimum wage at a manufacture company that is sub hired out to do something he doesn't even care about or is it a guy welding them up that has a passion for what he is doing and there might even be a chance the part he is welding on may just end up in his own car.
I am saying this as a person that has used products from about every different manufacture on the market. I have not always been with MWC, you do get what you pay for and take it from someone that has wasted tons of money on sub par parts just to have something after market on my vehicle. Save up and purchase quality, but don't be confused by those saying they have quality and hope you don't do your home work on the product they are actually selling. MWC uses the products that we do for a reason and our track record for performance, quality, and value is as good as it gets. Just because a rod end is made from Chromemoly doesn't mean that it is the best component you can get, and especially considering the application.
You want honest answers don't be afraid to ask us, the difference between us and most is we do not rely on Internet sales, we have one salesman which is me and I don't work off commission and the only reason I am here is because I missed being around this stuff and Eric asked me to help him out on the Internet stuff and logistics. We are a chassis shop that also manufactures suspension items. Eric's goal has always been to only sell what he would be willing to put on his own car and he has stayed very true to that.
12-09-2011, 06:39 AM
#13
Actually there is and always will be a "you get what you pay for" when it comes to suspension parts. The only way to cut down cost is to cut down quality/quantity of material or labor.
Examples:
Mild Steel over Chromemoly then wall thickness of material used
Tube adapters- over my years I have seen brands that have such sloppy threads it was like tossing a hot dog down a hallway.
Jam nuts- all though you wouldn't even consider them an issue, but if the threads were not cut well on those they can gall up the threads and come loose over time.
Heim joints- there are so many different heim joints on the market ranging in different price ranges. The cheaper the price the cheaper the quality. We have tried just about all of them and there is a reason we use the ones we use from FK or Aurora. They are by far the best manufacturers for rod ends on the market today. MWC does not use just average run of the mill imported heim joints on our lca's or other components. The ones we use are not metal to metal or kevlar which transmits most of the noise associated with these components. Hence... you do get what you pay for.
Chassis & Rear end bushings- if they are not cut to spec they can fit loose and be sloppy which is were most people hear noise from. This more falls onto the manufacture itself in making sure they know what they are doing.
Tig VS Mig, how they are welded up makes a difference even. Then gets into how well of a quality welder is welding them. Is it a guy making minimum wage at a manufacture company that is sub hired out to do something he doesn't even care about or is it a guy welding them up that has a passion for what he is doing and there might even be a chance the part he is welding on may just end up in his own car.
I am saying this as a person that has used products from about every different manufacture on the market. I have not always been with MWC, you do get what you pay for and take it from someone that has wasted tons of money on sub par parts just to have something after market on my vehicle. Save up and purchase quality, but don't be confused by those saying they have quality and hope you don't do your home work on the product they are actually selling. MWC uses the products that we do for a reason and our track record for performance, quality, and value is as good as it gets. Just because a rod end is made from Chromemoly doesn't mean that it is the best component you can get, and especially considering the application.
You want honest answers don't be afraid to ask us, the difference between us and most is we do not rely on Internet sales, we have one salesman which is me and I don't work off commission and the only reason I am here is because I missed being around this stuff and Eric asked me to help him out on the Internet stuff and logistics. We are a chassis shop that also manufactures suspension items. Eric's goal has always been to only sell what he would be willing to put on his own car and he has stayed very true to that.
Examples:
Mild Steel over Chromemoly then wall thickness of material used
Tube adapters- over my years I have seen brands that have such sloppy threads it was like tossing a hot dog down a hallway.
Jam nuts- all though you wouldn't even consider them an issue, but if the threads were not cut well on those they can gall up the threads and come loose over time.
Heim joints- there are so many different heim joints on the market ranging in different price ranges. The cheaper the price the cheaper the quality. We have tried just about all of them and there is a reason we use the ones we use from FK or Aurora. They are by far the best manufacturers for rod ends on the market today. MWC does not use just average run of the mill imported heim joints on our lca's or other components. The ones we use are not metal to metal or kevlar which transmits most of the noise associated with these components. Hence... you do get what you pay for.
Chassis & Rear end bushings- if they are not cut to spec they can fit loose and be sloppy which is were most people hear noise from. This more falls onto the manufacture itself in making sure they know what they are doing.
Tig VS Mig, how they are welded up makes a difference even. Then gets into how well of a quality welder is welding them. Is it a guy making minimum wage at a manufacture company that is sub hired out to do something he doesn't even care about or is it a guy welding them up that has a passion for what he is doing and there might even be a chance the part he is welding on may just end up in his own car.
I am saying this as a person that has used products from about every different manufacture on the market. I have not always been with MWC, you do get what you pay for and take it from someone that has wasted tons of money on sub par parts just to have something after market on my vehicle. Save up and purchase quality, but don't be confused by those saying they have quality and hope you don't do your home work on the product they are actually selling. MWC uses the products that we do for a reason and our track record for performance, quality, and value is as good as it gets. Just because a rod end is made from Chromemoly doesn't mean that it is the best component you can get, and especially considering the application.
You want honest answers don't be afraid to ask us, the difference between us and most is we do not rely on Internet sales, we have one salesman which is me and I don't work off commission and the only reason I am here is because I missed being around this stuff and Eric asked me to help him out on the Internet stuff and logistics. We are a chassis shop that also manufactures suspension items. Eric's goal has always been to only sell what he would be willing to put on his own car and he has stayed very true to that.
I don't disagree that there are better parts out there. But for a DD, does he need the all-out best Heim joints? That's up to him. I've run Founders LCAs for 2 years with boots with absolutely NO clunking. I make sure to torque to factory specs and use grease on poly bushings, and I couldn't be more pleased. On the other side, I've had a more expensive competitors LCAs on another Camaro that clunked like my rear end would fall out after about 6 months. Note, I didn't have boots on those joints...
So if he wants the absolute best with no end to budget, by all means, he should go with higher quality rod ends. But he can still get the Founders pieces and swap rod ends later on.
12-09-2011, 08:45 AM
#15
I believe a 6pk of boots is ~$34, and turns out I kind of had one in another picture installed... not the best because I wasn't focused on it, but this is on a PHB.
Last edited by themealonwheels; 12-09-2011 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Added another picture
12-09-2011, 11:15 AM
#16
Comparable is a loose term. There is a reason we use many different manufactures items just to build a LCA. It is from years of testing to find the best end result to pass that along to our customers. We don't put anything on our cars that doesn't go out to our customers.
Also DD vehicles are the ones that see the most abuse and should be the ones that purchase good quality parts. Like I said in my past post don't be deceived by company's that sell high cost items but use lower end material. Trust me there is a ton of company's out there that do it, they build a name for themselves and then start to cut cost back but keep the same high prices.
I do like the boot idea and it seems to fit very well for you. Keep in mind the diameter of the bushing may vary from manufacture to manufacture making it possibly not to fit over others bushings. Some say those actually can have a reverse effect on DD vehicles and hold in moisture, is it true? I couldn't tell you because I have never tried them before. It does seem like they are working for you but it also sounds like you do the needed maintenance to them and that is a step many people do not do when it comes to aftermarket parts.
Also DD vehicles are the ones that see the most abuse and should be the ones that purchase good quality parts. Like I said in my past post don't be deceived by company's that sell high cost items but use lower end material. Trust me there is a ton of company's out there that do it, they build a name for themselves and then start to cut cost back but keep the same high prices.
I do like the boot idea and it seems to fit very well for you. Keep in mind the diameter of the bushing may vary from manufacture to manufacture making it possibly not to fit over others bushings. Some say those actually can have a reverse effect on DD vehicles and hold in moisture, is it true? I couldn't tell you because I have never tried them before. It does seem like they are working for you but it also sounds like you do the needed maintenance to them and that is a step many people do not do when it comes to aftermarket parts.
12-09-2011, 05:09 PM
#17
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Actually there is and always will be a "you get what you pay for" when it comes to suspension parts. The only way to cut down cost is to cut down quality/quantity of material or labor.
Examples:
Mild Steel over Chromemoly then wall thickness of material used
Tube adapters- over my years I have seen brands that have such sloppy threads it was like tossing a hot dog down a hallway.
Jam nuts- all though you wouldn't even consider them an issue, but if the threads were not cut well on those they can gall up the threads and come loose over time.
Heim joints- there are so many different heim joints on the market ranging in different price ranges. The cheaper the price the cheaper the quality. We have tried just about all of them and there is a reason we use the ones we use from FK or Aurora. They are by far the best manufacturers for rod ends on the market today. MWC does not use just average run of the mill imported heim joints on our lca's or other components. The ones we use are not metal to metal or kevlar which transmits most of the noise associated with these components. Hence... you do get what you pay for.
Chassis & Rear end bushings- if they are not cut to spec they can fit loose and be sloppy which is were most people hear noise from. This more falls onto the manufacture itself in making sure they know what they are doing.
Tig VS Mig, how they are welded up makes a difference even. Then gets into how well of a quality welder is welding them. Is it a guy making minimum wage at a manufacture company that is sub hired out to do something he doesn't even care about or is it a guy welding them up that has a passion for what he is doing and there might even be a chance the part he is welding on may just end up in his own car.
I am saying this as a person that has used products from about every different manufacture on the market. I have not always been with MWC, you do get what you pay for and take it from someone that has wasted tons of money on sub par parts just to have something after market on my vehicle. Save up and purchase quality, but don't be confused by those saying they have quality and hope you don't do your home work on the product they are actually selling. MWC uses the products that we do for a reason and our track record for performance, quality, and value is as good as it gets. Just because a rod end is made from Chromemoly doesn't mean that it is the best component you can get, and especially considering the application.
You want honest answers don't be afraid to ask us, the difference between us and most is we do not rely on Internet sales, we have one salesman which is me and I don't work off commission and the only reason I am here is because I missed being around this stuff and Eric asked me to help him out on the Internet stuff and logistics. We are a chassis shop that also manufactures suspension items. Eric's goal has always been to only sell what he would be willing to put on his own car and he has stayed very true to that.
Examples:
Mild Steel over Chromemoly then wall thickness of material used
Tube adapters- over my years I have seen brands that have such sloppy threads it was like tossing a hot dog down a hallway.
Jam nuts- all though you wouldn't even consider them an issue, but if the threads were not cut well on those they can gall up the threads and come loose over time.
Heim joints- there are so many different heim joints on the market ranging in different price ranges. The cheaper the price the cheaper the quality. We have tried just about all of them and there is a reason we use the ones we use from FK or Aurora. They are by far the best manufacturers for rod ends on the market today. MWC does not use just average run of the mill imported heim joints on our lca's or other components. The ones we use are not metal to metal or kevlar which transmits most of the noise associated with these components. Hence... you do get what you pay for.
Chassis & Rear end bushings- if they are not cut to spec they can fit loose and be sloppy which is were most people hear noise from. This more falls onto the manufacture itself in making sure they know what they are doing.
Tig VS Mig, how they are welded up makes a difference even. Then gets into how well of a quality welder is welding them. Is it a guy making minimum wage at a manufacture company that is sub hired out to do something he doesn't even care about or is it a guy welding them up that has a passion for what he is doing and there might even be a chance the part he is welding on may just end up in his own car.
I am saying this as a person that has used products from about every different manufacture on the market. I have not always been with MWC, you do get what you pay for and take it from someone that has wasted tons of money on sub par parts just to have something after market on my vehicle. Save up and purchase quality, but don't be confused by those saying they have quality and hope you don't do your home work on the product they are actually selling. MWC uses the products that we do for a reason and our track record for performance, quality, and value is as good as it gets. Just because a rod end is made from Chromemoly doesn't mean that it is the best component you can get, and especially considering the application.
You want honest answers don't be afraid to ask us, the difference between us and most is we do not rely on Internet sales, we have one salesman which is me and I don't work off commission and the only reason I am here is because I missed being around this stuff and Eric asked me to help him out on the Internet stuff and logistics. We are a chassis shop that also manufactures suspension items. Eric's goal has always been to only sell what he would be willing to put on his own car and he has stayed very true to that.
In terms of "you get what you pay for" is not always the case. We have a business model and manufacturing facilities which allow us to build mass quantities of parts with very little man hours. The only thing that really takes a human other than setting up machines is the welding.
Examples:
1. Our threaded tube bungs are made on CNC lathes with sub-spindles and parts catchers. We hold a very tight tolerance along with holding our thread tolerance to class 2B which is the industry standard for rod ends, nuts, and bolts. 2B is for internal threads and 2A is for external threads.
2. Tube coping/notching for the bushing end is done using CNC tube laser cutters. Here is a video I found online to show what I'm talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUtdp...eature=related
3. Our rod ends are heat treated chrome-moly and as you said some of the best quality available is FK.
4. Material is US made and we require certs with all of our tubing orders. This is a copy of our latest shipment that arrived the other day.
5. Welding is one of the only things that isn't automated. We don't do any mig/short arc welding. All of the welding we do is either pulse spray or tig depending on the application. Here is a photo of one of our parts before sand blasting and powder coat so you see the quality of our welds. We are also one of it not the only company that rosette welds our bungs as extra security.
As you can see the quality of our parts are very high quality and the material we use is top notch. The reason we are able to sell these parts for such a great deal is we don't have a resale program so we don't have to mark our parts up to allow other companies to make a profit. We also try and automate everything that we can including CNC bandsaw for the bushing ends and vibratory finishers for deburring of our tube.
12-09-2011, 06:22 PM
#19
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does anyone actually have personal experience with founders and another manufacter on their own car. otherwise I think its hard to say they are a inferior product
12-09-2011, 06:42 PM
#20
TECH Senior Member
Seems kinda fishy to me...