WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

This seemed to happen suddenly, I didn't drive much in the past few months, but never noticed this problem before. The car wanders, and not a little meander, but a "I bet the grass is greener in the other lane" wander. It feels a lot like driving with the toe out; once the weight shifts, it seems to follow a different line.

But the alignment is dead on (had it checked). It's not a road groove thing (although that adds quite a bit of excitement to the task of driving this beast in this condition). I've replaced the steering rack (it's been leaking for years anyway) - no effect. There does seem to be some play in the column, with a little clunk if you go from side to side quickly, but watching the wheels shows that even the slightest turn of the steering wheel makes it all the way down to the tires.

I took it out yesterday and did some slalom-style runs, it feels like it stays laid over longer than it should after turning from one side to the other and then suddenly jerks in the correct direction. It also "feels" like it's going through the turn a bit sideways when doing a u-turn or 90 degree turn at an intersection. It's slow to respond to steering input just doesn't feel right when i'm sitting in it in the driveway and i turn the wheel (not going anywhere; hard to describe, but it's just not "right"). Lastly, the camber is dead on, but it feels like the caster is almost non existent; that could be me being over-sensitive at this point, I never really paid much attention to the caster until I tried figuring this problem out.

I've spent many, many hours underneath, checking every bolt, suspension component, frame, etc. Nothing loose, nothing bent, nothing broken (front or back); everything looks great. Still have completely stock suspension in front (koni shocks on the back). Tie rod ends seem ok, no play that I can tell.

Another thread says to bounce the car 4-5 times and see how many rebounds you get after letting go to check the shocks. I get none - all 4 corners, after i let go after the last bounce, she goes right back to where she belongs without a single additional bounce.

Any help is greatly appreciated; I have to drive 200 miles round trip on Fridays to get my daughter for the weekend and I can't do it i this condition, it's that bad; there are days when I get nervous just driving to work on the freeway.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

2 more notes: I put a Turn1 PS pump in a couple years ago. I also have rotated the tires front to back on the off chance a tire slipped a belt (whatever that means, never heard of it, but I'd think I'd feel a vibration if there was a tire problem).

joe77

Are the bushings good in the lca? How many miles on the front shocks? Did you hit a pot hole or anything? Are you sure the rack was installed right? do you stil have the clunk when turning the wheel after the rack?

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

The bushings look good, but I didn't tear it all down to inspect them; LCAs aren't bent or cracked (although, honestly, I REALLY have to question the crappy welding underneath this thing, fkn robots, but no fractures). There's no movement in any suspension part (granted, I cant exert the force a 2 ton chassis can, but everything I grab and shake moves the whole car w/o any play).

175k miles, I'd accept the shocks being bad, but can't afford to make the wrong call due to limited cash. It actually seems to me that the shocks are too stiff; it takes quite a bit to move the front end and almost no recoil afterwards.

The rack is in good, I installed it after this problem started in desperate hopes it was the problem; I had run out of other possible causes.

The clunk is in the column as it goes through the firewall. There's a little movement in the plastic piece at the end and a tiny bit of looseness in the first u-joint on the shaft. Not what I would consider to be enough that the wheels would be allowed to change direction w/o the steering wheel knowing it. If I move either the wheels or the steering wheel even a little bit, the other responds, so there's really no play in the system as a whole.

Driving me crazy because it seems like the problem should be obvious by the way it handles.

BOBS99SS

iTrader: (2)

did you have everything checked out in your front end, did you do an alignment after the rack install?

Dummybait

As far as the car wandering, I don't have that, but it likes to pull to one side or the other depending on road crown and grooves in the road. As far as turning sharp at speed and uturns and.. mine feels like i'm in a slight drift or have a couple flat tires.

Also note, my car has a dead stock suspension and i'm at 60k miles, the backend bouces quite a bit...oh and the nose dives... holy crap.

won't be long though... shocks and springs are comming this spring..


Hope you get this resolved soon..

VinR1

iTrader: (17)

I had a very similar problem and even after two alignments, the car was too unpredictable to drive

if you have about 20 minutes of free time, jack up the front end and give yourself a bit of toe in. Loosen the nut on the outer tie rod and spin it towards the motor (dont remember right or left, just whichever direction pulls it 'in') ONE spin per side. Doing that on my car helped tremendously. My wife is no longer afraid to drive my car now

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

I did not do an alignment after the rack swap; it was checked prior to the swap and proclaimed to be perfect. When I did the swap, I made some pretty precise measurements and got everything spot on. the problem existed before the rack swap and was not effected after the swap; therefore the two aren't related.

The "slight drift" is exactly what I'm referring to, Dummybait, almost feels like the chassis wants to slide right off the tires, like a flat tire would.

I thought about tweaking the toe, Devildog, and almost did so yesterday when I did a visual inspection and it looked like it had worked its way into toe-out. I didn't though, because I had just take it off the jack and wanted to roll it around before jumping to conclusions. a quick up and down the driveway and it looked right again. I may go ahead and mess with it a little later.

Does anyone else feel like it's tough to bounce the front end? It takes me jumping up and down on it to get it to move and it goes right back to where it should be as soon as i get off it.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

I messed with the toe a bit, pulled it in some and out some, neither change had a significant effect on the problem. I noticed when doing a u-turn that it seems I had to turn to wheel an awful lot to make the turn, and (again., may be over-sensitive paranoia) it seems like it doesn't take as much effort to turn the wheel as it used to; I noticed that before I changed the rack, which is why I took it to have the alignment checked, thinking the caster was gone out of it.

Anyone have any other ideas on how to check if the front struts are bad? I can't afford to make another bad call like I did when I bought the rack.

JD_AMG

*These cars have shocks, not struts.
Your problem doesn't sound like a shock issue to me (although there is no doubt your front shocks are "bad" seeing that they come from the factory "bad" [shitty valving to begin with] and now you have a lot of miles on them). Pushing on the car is not really going to show anything.
You need to get actual alignment numbers from the shop, they could be in the green zone but one side could be different from the other.
What tire pressure are you running?
You do have a front swaybar right? (have to ask)
Could bad wheel bearings cause something like this?

eb110americana

iTrader: (4)

That's normal. The spring rates are stiff in front to support that big V8 and and the shocks are supposed to be able to handle it.

You've got double wishbones, no struts. I get your meaning though: shocks.

Okay, assuming you are correct in the steering rack being installed correctly and that the alignment isn't off, try this:

1) Take the key out of the ignition. Turn the steering wheel so that it locks close to straight ahead. Jack up the front end and support both sides with jack stands under the chassis (not the suspension). Grab a wheel and try to twist it up and down (one hand on top, one on bottom and push with one while pulling with the other, reverse pushing and pulling and repeat vigorously). Attempt the same thing trying to twist the wheel in and out attempting to affect the steering (one hand at the front of the tire, one at the back and push with one while pulling with the other, reverse pushing and pulling and repeat vigorously). Repeat both tests on the other wheel. If everything feels tight, then good. If not, look underneath and see if you can find where the play is coming from. It may help to have a friend to shake the wheel while you look. Report back. You can try much the same with the rear wheels, but I suspect all you can detect back there is bad wheel bearings.

2) This is a crazy idea, but being that nothing else makes sense, the problem calls for some shadetree ingenuity. Pull up parallel to a curb so that your tire sidewalls are just touching the curb. (Warning: if you have low profile aftermarket wheels with rims that stick out, you should not attempt this as it will scratch them.) With the car running in park, try to turn the steering wheel back and forth. It should feel very progressively stiff and not allow much play as you compress the tire sidewall. If the wheel moves back and forth too much, something is loose in the steering shaft, rack, or tierods.

3) If all of this pans out, something is probably loose in your suspension. Although the steering is controlled through the front end, the car is kept in tow by the rear "following orders." We know this to be true of the police pit maneuver. If a link has come loose in your rear end suspension, it would cause the strange sideways phenomenon you are describing. Keep looking and check both ends and both sides of the lower control arms, shocks, panhard bar, and torque arm. You may even want to try tightening the bolts rather than just checking them since you've already done that. Best of luck!

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Thanx guys, I actually meant shocks but wrote struts because I had was staring at another webpage while I wrote the message.

I did some of the things mentioned, but I'll try the rest. I did shake the crap out of the wheels, both with the suspension under load and no load, nothing loose at all. If the steering wheel is in lock I can't budge the tires a bit.

I'm running 46lbs on all 4 tires, I used to run a lot less, but with money being tight these days I need them to last as long as possible so I keep it pretty high. I've never touched the front bar (I replaced the bushings for the rear bar a couple years ago, though; I used Energy Suspension and am kinda disappointed that they're now squeaking after just a couple of years). I kept going back to the front bar while I was troubleshooting, but didn't see anything out of whack with it and all is tight.

I did a slalom run pretty aggressive at high speed and it felt less "lazy" than I remember it feeling before; when i cranked the wheel the car turned quick and pretty hard. It seems like it used to respond more slowly and predictably. I didn't hear any noise from anywhere during the run, I was hoping to hear a clank somewhere.

I like the curb idea and I'll give that a try (I used to run some Firestones that had a rim guard on the tire, but I haven't seen any others like that). The rear end was one of my initial thoughts, especially since it felt like it was drifting through turns, but everything is tight back there and there's not much complexity to that geometry, so I assume it should be pretty easy to tell if something's out of whack back there, right?"

QUESTION: Can I unload the LCAs and re-install them w/o a spring compressor? I might want to get a better look at the bushings, etc but if I won't be able to get it back together I'm screwed.

Any other tips on how simulate driving conditions in the garage would be great, I thought that if I could just get a set of eyes on the suspension while driving it would be easy to isolate the problem. I do have a video camera and could rig up a mount if I had to.

1981TA

iTrader: (7)

regarding the curb thing: try wedging a plank of wood (1x6?) or a carpet remnant between the tire and the curb before doing the steering wheel boogie. Les chance of scratches that way.

I don't know 4th gens well, but if yours was a 2nd gen, I'd be looking for a worn ball joint, bad bushing, or loose frame-to-body bolts (especially since the boatload of checks you did hadn't found an issue). Other issues I've seen cause similar problems:

broken motor mount (caused interference with steering shaft)
worn rear axle bearing (allowed wheel to change drive angle)

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

I'm going to get underneath the rear again tomorrow and check things out. I've been under there with stands on the axle and with stands on the frame and haven't seen anything, but I may have missed something. It sure feels like the front end, and shocks make sense since they're well past their prime in the front.

It does bother me how hard it is to get any bounce out of the front end, like the shocks are way stiff. Is there a way shocks can go bad that causes them to get stiffer?

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

I think my signature pic says it all That's the front pass side LCA rear mount. I haven't gone in and looked it over, but it looks like the mount has separated from its cup.

VinR1

iTrader: (17)

Whoa! ...at least now you know the (a) problem

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Yeah But what's the fix? I haven't gotten under there to see for sure, but it looks like it might be a bolt-on mount. I don't have access to a welder and no idea what it would cost to get a shop to do it. No-one's ever laid a wrench on her but me except to change tires and do alignments, so that alone breaks my heart.

Back to an earlier question: Can I unload and disassemble the lower arm without needed an spring compressor to put it all back together?

VinR1

iTrader: (17)

The rear LCAs? As long as the car and rearend are both supported, just unbolt and they'll come right out

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

No, the rear mount on the front LCA.

Sam Strano

iTrader: (41)

This is easy. Shocks, and more front swaybar. I'd start with the shock. The car is just flopping around. BTW, the bounce test is no longer valid you cannot cycle the suspension nearly as quickly as happens on the road.

If the shocks don't cure your ill's, then I'd look at a swaybar increase in the front (which will then make the rear a bit lazy, so we increase it too, but not as much.