WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Changed name of thread from "rear swaybar width" to get some other clarifications.

Most of you guys are working out much more advanced problems, so hopefully this will be easy. I've been working through a bind in the rear and have a couple of swaybar questions. Everything back there is stock except the bushings and endlinks.

First, here are the things I think I know, let me know if they aren't correct:

0. Don't start working on your car if you have a date that night if you ever want to see her again
0.a. Don't tell her you're taking pictures of your rearend to show to the guys online, that probably doesn't help either

1. All measurements, adjustments and torquing should be done under full load with all 4 fenderwells at the same height (if that's the way it sits naturally, which is true for me)

2. Sway arms should be parallel to the deck

3. Sway eyelets should actually NOT be vertical to their chassis mounts; the first picture shows the default angle of the mounts themselves, which is parallel to the shock

4. The axle mounts should sit with the "key" on the axle in the "channel" on the bracket to prevent slippage under load

5. I've done the heater hose mod and dropped about 3/4" of height at the rear fender

6. Poly endlinks should be tightened to where they can no longer be spun by hand plus 1 complete turn, NOT to the specs in the book, which are for rubber links

7. The bar must run parallel to the axle tube (which is NOT automatic if you're using aftermarket axle mounts, because the ears have slots, not holes. That was the source of an endlink alignment issue and a minor bind for me, as one was slid all the way forward and the other was slid all the way back)

8. The axle mounts should be as far outboard as possible without entering the area where the bar begins to curve (I used a straightedge to mark that spot on mine)

9. Endlinks can be any length as long as they keep the arms parallel

10. With the endlinks attached, but not tightened, swing the bar so that it puts slight pressure on the enslinks; both endlinks should be in contact at the top and bottom. Minor discrepancies (up to 1/4") can be compensated for with washers between the spacer tube and the plates (not between the plates and the bushings as that is a molded fit), otherwise the bar is too bent to use or there is some other problem

11. Make sure the nubs in the bushings sit in the holes of the bar and chassis mount

12. Grease poly bushings with Marine Grease annually (not all poly mounts need it, Engergy Suspension now sells black ones that are embedded with graphite. Moog makes a hard black set as does Prothane, not sure if they contain graphite)


My install method:
1. Attach and over-tighten the endlinks slightly
2. This will align the axle mounts where they are most "comfortable", tighten them down
3. Loosen both endlinks and ensure the bar swings freely
4. Tighten the endlinks


Questions:

1. How tight should poly axle mounts be?

2. How wide is the rear swaybar supposed to be eyelet to eyelet? Mine is about an inch wider than the mounts on the chassis.

3. Pic #2 shows the gap between the swaybar and the axle mount when the endlinks are over-tightened. This roughly matches the gain I got from the heater hose mod, so I'm blaming it on that. To minimize unnecessary load and binding, should I compensate with a spacer?

4. I've read threads that say not to grease the endlinks, is it that they should not be greased or that they don't need to be greased?


PIC1 - Left Rear shock and sway mount angles (endlink tightened, bar not attached)


PIC2 - Gap between axle and bar after heater hose mod

ChrisRZ28

Mine have been about the same. I don't think I've ever seen a swaybar that was exactly the same distance as the chassis.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Well that makes me feel a little bit better. Still would like to find the specs somewhere. I looked at the section in the maint manual that gives the chassis dimensions, but I don't think the spots the drawing is showing are the bar mounts because they're 20.1" to center and the bar itself is on 39" wide, so the mounts are 38". That would make me 2" narrower; I think I'm tweaked, but not that much.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Confirmed, my mounts are 38" apart

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

ttt.Anyone have any thoughts regarding the questions?

rabbit320

iTrader: (11)

i havent greased my endlinks, but have heard that poly can make some squeaking noises, so makes sense to coat them lightly, if at least for some protection as well. i wouldnt tighten the sway mounts too tight, just by hand maybe to 35 ft/lbs. im also curious about the bind issue, because ive done it both ways - tighten the mounts first then the endlinks, then vice versa, and one way did feel like the rear wanted to bind a little

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

I believe its not the endlinks that squeak. It's the bushings on the mounting points due to the swaybar rotating on that axis.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

I've definitely had the bushings squeak. Took me a few shots to track it down, but panhard bushings squeak bad, too.

Rabbit: 35lb/ft seems to be an awful lot, the manual calls for 18 on rubber and it seems I've heard you want less that book wherever you use poly. I think the fronts may be 40 lb/ft, so that might be what you're thinking.

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

Has this car been verified for a straight frame yet?

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

just by my eyeballs and some steel angle i'm using for a straightedge. I have the book to take the measurements, but I seem to have trouble finding the spots shown in the book. In other words, no. I just switched from contacts to glasses after 20 years, I'm realizing that the glasses make things look bent when they're really not. Every time I have it in the air, it looks like the"other" side is sagging. I go to check and the side I just came form looks sagging.

I do have something I find odd, but it may be correct. The driver side spring mount in the rear is often angled downto the back while the pass side seems level. That doesn't seem right to me. I'll go snap a pic.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

And of course, the moment you put a level to it, it calls you a liar. As wrong as that suspension gets after driving it a bit, the problem should be jumping right out at me. But as careful as I am to try not to disturb the "broken" state while I take it apart, I can never find what it is that's binding, let alone what's causing it to bind.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

Yeah did you ever verify that your rear end might be toeing to the right or left side?

If your worried that you think your swaybar is an issue, which it probably isn't.. then just disconnect the rear swaybar and drive without it to test. If it's still messed up then it's not the swaybar.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

I honestly think it's toeing IN, I'll have to drop it out and clamp some straightedges to it and do some measuring. I'm not sure how accurately I can tell if it's toeing left or right because I'd have to strip it down to the rotors to properly tell the angle the axles are pointed, then clamp straightedges on. To do that, I'd have to drop it below the fenders, which could change the angle and off I'd go on another wild goose chase...

Unless you have a better way? I can't afford to take it in, I lose my job in 3 weeks.

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

Considering you had a fairly major impact with a curb, until you know if the frame is straight we are speculating, and you are pissing into the wind. It sounds like you have looked at most of the suspension (front A-arms straight?) for your issue. If all of the suspension pieces are straight, there is really only one other place where the probelm can lie.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

Yeah The "frame rails" are straight, in that if I push a straightedge against them from the bottom there's no gaps, but that's all I've checked. I'll get it up on 4 stands and try to go through the measurements in the book. There are plenty of things under there that look odd, meaning I wouldn't build a car like that; crappy welds, gaps here and there, etc, that I don't know if are correct or are a sign of something being bent. Ex: The tub under the RR seat area, there's a big gap where 2 pieces overlap that's not there on the other side. Some seat belt and other bolt anchor reinforcements conform to the shape of the tub and others don't. And don't even get me started on the half-assed welds.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

So I put the old stock shocks back on the rear and drove to work this morning. The binding problem seems to be solved, which has me puzzled because the Konis seemed to be fine.

I'm not ready to point at them as the problem, maybe their additional stiffness was amplifying a problem in the suspension and causing the bind or maybe they really are the culprit and there are no other problems. I've taken a number of measurements on the chassis and everything seem to be straight.

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

So does the car still feel like shart?

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

It's still a little darty now and then. I had pulled the toe in by a turn as an experiment, I'll set that back to where it was. The rear tires need to be replaced and the front bar still has a minor bend in it, so that needs to be replaced, too.

It's definitely more bouncy in the rear due to the stock shocks, not particularly fond of that, but it's better than a seized up suspension.

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

Your suspension pickup points on the side that made contact could be totally hosed though with no effect to the frame rails. If you rear LCA, PHB mounts are tweaked (probably even a couple of millimeters), you could have tons of issues.

Not to be rude, but you have f***ed with the moving parts so much that they almost can't be broken or misinstalled. I read all of the big thread. The last variable thrown out was the curb impact. It almost has to be the source of the issue.

WhiteStallion00

iTrader: (1)

The bind is actually still in there, the softer shocks just make it more difficult to detect.

I agree with what you're saying SS, I'm doing all I can to figure out what's tweaked. The rear LCA mounts are suspect, if only because they look flimsy and possibly twisted, but it's very difficult to tell. The left front (which is where the collision was) matches up perfectly with the right front; however, as you can see by the alignment specs in the other thread, there's something wrong there. I just don't know what it could be; the RF camber is off , but the LF caster is way off. Then there's the toe on the RR and none on the LR, which I also don't understand.

The collision was 10 years ago; I understand metal fatigue could be a factor. In fact, there are times after I've reset the suspension when the driver door creaks as I open it whereas it didn't before I rest things. I think the chassis may be flexing somewhere, but I don't know where to look.

I'm just as frustrated with it as you guys are with me. I wish I could afford to take it to a frame shop, but I can't, so all I can do is keep working on it. I know the front bar is causing some issues because when the frontend gets stiff I can free it up by loosening the bar mounts. I'll be ordering a new bar this weekend.