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Would like to setup my suspension for corner carving.

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Old 05-01-2012, 01:28 AM   #1
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Default Would like to setup my suspension for corner carving.

To accomplish this goal of carving corners I know I'll need to change out sway bars as well as lower my center of gravity with some new springs and upgrade shocks/struts to help handle said lowering.

So far sway bars, springs, shocks/struts.

Do I need any further parts to help with this goal?

What steps/parts are taken/used to compensate for the different angles caused by the lowering?
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:10 AM   #2
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Get an adjustable PHB to recenter the rear-end after lowering. Up front you'll need it re-aligned, and I'd have them dial-in about -.5* camber.
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Old 05-01-2012, 03:58 AM   #3
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To accomplish this goal of carving corners I know I'll need to change out sway bars as well as lower my center of gravity with some new springs and upgrade shocks/struts to help handle said lowering.

So far sway bars, springs, shocks/struts.

Do I need any further parts to help with this goal?

What steps/parts are taken/used to compensate for the different angles caused by the lowering?
with the swaybars shocks and springs .. make sure to get something matched.. something that will work well together.

that stuff is just a start.. you'll need some better rear suspension pieces to go along with it ,, Lower control arms and a panhard bar at the very least.

it really just depends on how much you want to spend.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:50 AM   #4
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I would start with UMI SFC's, an adjustable PHB and UMI 35/22 sways. Then top it off with the Strano/Koni combo. Then carve away.
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Old 05-01-2012, 09:26 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Unforgiven1 View Post
To accomplish this goal of carving corners I know I'll need to change out sway bars as well as lower my center of gravity with some new springs and upgrade shocks/struts to help handle said lowering.

So far sway bars, springs, shocks/struts.

Do I need any further parts to help with this goal?

What steps/parts are taken/used to compensate for the different angles caused by the lowering?
Hello there. I think you're looking at the right path to increase your car's handling. There are other parts to improve your car's handling out there, but shocks/springs and sway bars are a proven vehicle transformation. Koni is currently running a killer 20% off sale on their shocks, and we are packaging those with our springs at an additional $249.95 discount...I can create a custom package with sway bars and an adjustable panhard bar and save you some money there too. These parts will deliver the handling you're looking for with extremely high-quality parts and not break the bank.

HPP026
Click the image to open in full size.

Let me know if you have any questions!
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:13 AM   #6
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OK. PHB and re-alignment. LCAs were also mentioned. SFCs as well, however I've already got some BMR boxed weld-ins of that variety.

From what I've read and from looking my general understanding is that the PHB keeps the rear end centered under the body of the car via connections to the body and rear end. So an adjustable one would be desired to help you get it true center? Where as a non adjustable would get you close but maybe not spot on? Are they all adjustable? Seems weird that someone would buy one that wasn't.

LCAs appear to me to keep the left or right side of the axle from stepping out of line too much in respect to the other...as in the right side wheel position should stay the same as the left side in regards to foward and back. Correct? Why is an aftermarket piece desirable? Less flex/deflection? With a lowered vehicle is it necessary to also get the relocation brackets to get the geometry set right?

I haven't found a particular post that covers the actual basic functions of the parts so I'm just kind of needing to know. Most of the threads that I've read just suggest swapping to an aftermarket piece but not really telling what the purpose of the replacement of the pieces are. I like to know specific reasons rather than vague "it'll make it handle better". Thanks for your input in advance.
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Old 05-01-2012, 11:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Unforgiven1 View Post
OK. PHB and re-alignment. LCAs were also mentioned. SFCs as well, however I've already got some BMR boxed weld-ins of that variety.

From what I've read and from looking my general understanding is that the PHB keeps the rear end centered under the body of the car via connections to the body and rear end. So an adjustable one would be desired to help you get it true center? Where as a non adjustable would get you close but maybe not spot on? Are they all adjustable? Seems weird that someone would buy one that wasn't.

LCAs appear to me to keep the left or right side of the axle from stepping out of line too much in respect to the other...as in the right side wheel position should stay the same as the left side in regards to foward and back. Correct? Why is an aftermarket piece desirable? Less flex/deflection? With a lowered vehicle is it necessary to also get the relocation brackets to get the geometry set right?

I haven't found a particular post that covers the actual basic functions of the parts so I'm just kind of needing to know. Most of the threads that I've read just suggest swapping to an aftermarket piece but not really telling what the purpose of the replacement of the pieces are. I like to know specific reasons rather than vague "it'll make it handle better". Thanks for your input in advance.
always good to see people doing their homework ,,

the other thing you can do .. that doesn't cost as much is taking weight out ,,
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Old 05-01-2012, 12:01 PM   #8
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If you have the money, skip the PHB and get a watts link
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Old 05-01-2012, 04:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Cheezebandit View Post
always good to see people doing their homework ,,

the other thing you can do .. that doesn't cost as much is taking weight out ,,
Have taken out the useless rear seats. And I kind of effed the pooch on that cause I have an all power car. I'm gonna go ahead and keep my creature comforts I payed for. It's not gonna be an all out effort just something fun to take to a scca meet once a month. But if I do get serious I'll look for a 1LE or something and strip it down further.


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Originally Posted by 2QuikTA View Post
If you have the money, skip the PHB and get a watts link
Have to research that one.
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Old 05-01-2012, 05:01 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Cheezebandit View Post
with the swaybars shocks and springs .. make sure to get something matched.. something that will work well together.

that stuff is just a start.. you'll need some better rear suspension pieces to go along with it ,, Lower control arms and a panhard bar at the very least.

it really just depends on how much you want to spend.
For handling the big three with these cars are shocks, springs and swaybars (and tires of course), everything else will make much much less of a difference.
He certainly doesn't need LCA's, the difference they make in handling is negotiable.

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Originally Posted by Unforgiven1 View Post
OK. PHB and re-alignment. LCAs were also mentioned. SFCs as well, however I've already got some BMR boxed weld-ins of that variety.
As I said above, you certainly don't need LCA's, they will stiffen up the rear end some but its far from necessary.
Quote:
From what I've read and from looking my general understanding is that the PHB keeps the rear end centered under the body of the car via connections to the body and rear end. So an adjustable one would be desired to help you get it true center? Where as a non adjustable would get you close but maybe not spot on? Are they all adjustable? Seems weird that someone would buy one that wasn't.
Heres a simple GIF of a panhard bar working.
Click the image to open in full size.
Stock is a fixed length, the rear suspension moves in an arc, when it comes up it also moves toward the passenger side of the car, and when moving down it pushes to the drivers side. So when you lower the car the axle will be pushed toward the drivers side, an adjustable PHB is used to bring it back to center (by making the PHB shorter).
This is why a watts link is popular, it keeps the rear centered and has no lateral movement like the PHB setup does:
Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
LCAs appear to me to keep the left or right side of the axle from stepping out of line too much in respect to the other...as in the right side wheel position should stay the same as the left side in regards to foward and back. Correct?
yes, that is basically their job, and keeping the axle from moving forward/backwards.
Quote:
Why is an aftermarket piece desirable? Less flex/deflection? With a lowered vehicle is it necessary to also get the relocation brackets to get the geometry set right?
There is less flex (mostly in the bushings used). They make adjustable for fitting larger wheels and/or tires that may need to be pushed back a little for clearance.
They are not needed, and neither are relocation brackets as they are more for drag racers. You will be changing your roll center with them and may cause oversteer.
While we are on the topic of handling Ill add stay away from poly bushings in control arms, as they bind and will cause unstable/unpredictable handling.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:53 PM   #11
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For handling the big three with these cars are shocks, springs and swaybars (and tires of course), everything else will make much much less of a difference.
He certainly doesn't need LCA's, the difference they make in handling is negotiable.


As I said above, you certainly don't need LCA's, they will stiffen up the rear end some but its far from necessary.

Heres a simple GIF of a panhard bar working.
Click the image to open in full size.
Stock is a fixed length, the rear suspension moves in an arc, when it comes up it also moves toward the passenger side of the car, and when moving down it pushes to the drivers side. So when you lower the car the axle will be pushed toward the drivers side, an adjustable PHB is used to bring it back to center (by making the PHB shorter).
This is why a watts link is popular, it keeps the rear centered and has no lateral movement like the PHB setup does:
Click the image to open in full size.


yes, that is basically their job, and keeping the axle from moving forward/backwards.

There is less flex (mostly in the bushings used). They make adjustable for fitting larger wheels and/or tires that may need to be pushed back a little for clearance.
They are not needed, and neither are relocation brackets as they are more for drag racers. You will be changing your roll center with them and may cause oversteer.
While we are on the topic of handling Ill add stay away from poly bushings in control arms, as they bind and will cause unstable/unpredictable handling.
First off, thanks for the illustration. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

I looked up the watts link and it seemed to make perfect sense. I'm kinda stumped as to why I don't remember seeing something about these. From a handling standpoint it seems as though they would make things a substantial amount better especially as you move over uneven terrain or bumps as compared to the traditional PHB. Now understanding the basic movements and concepts of how that moves allows me to realize that even with an adjustable PHB when the rear end is in upward or downward movement your rear will still offcenter whereas with the watts you'd constantly remain over center. Cost would be the only factor here for me. Do you have to have another mounting area welded to the underside of the body to make these work? Also, as I'm planning on Auto Xing anybody familiar if having one of these shoots me into some supercar class running with ferraris or something? That would be a tinge counterproductive.

I'll have to consider whether or not LCAs are something viable for what I'm wanting to do as I still would enjoy going to the strip just for fun every now and then. Probably my decision would be weighed based upon how much wheelhop I encountered after the lowering process. Even with a corner carver I'd like to get the thing out of the hole with minimal wheelhop...and I've seen that these cure a lot of that.

I'm seeing more and more to stay away from the poly bushings as they do cause binding in areas where you wouldn't normally want to see that. So...the other options are? Seems like most of the aftermarket are still catering to those who are still fans of the poly products. <<<EDIT>>> As I looked over this again it seems as though the poly bushing option is only bad in control arms? But are ok in other applications such as a PHB or swaybar links?
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:48 PM   #12
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Do you have to have another mounting area welded to the underside of the body to make these work?
The watts link?
The Fays2 watts link I have is a bolt in kit, no welding. Got it from stranoparts, but heres a direct link to the site:
http://fays2.net/
Quote:
Also, as I'm planning on Auto Xing anybody familiar if having one of these shoots me into some supercar class running with ferraris or something? That would be a tinge counterproductive.
Nope, legal for Fstock class as far as i know.
BUT running aftermarket LCA's or relocation brackets WILL bump you up a class. You can run solid rubber 1LE style bushings in the LCA's though.

Quote:
I'm seeing more and more to stay away from the poly bushings as they do cause binding in areas where you wouldn't normally want to see that. So...the other options are? Seems like most of the aftermarket are still catering to those who are still fans of the poly products.
Poly is cheap, aftermarket companies can make easy profit from it.
The other option is rubber, rod end, or roto-joint (UMI has this).

Quote:
<<<EDIT>>> As I looked over this again it seems as though the poly bushing option is only bad in control arms? But are ok in other applications such as a PHB or swaybar links?
PHB is arguable because of things like stiction, swaybar D bushings and endlinks are fine as they don't articulate and move around like control arms.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:16 AM   #13
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Nice job on the explanation guys.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:33 AM   #14
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PHB is arguable because of things like stiction, swaybar D bushings and endlinks are fine as they don't articulate and move around like control arms.
Whats your view on the LCA's with poly on the chassis end and roto-joint on the axle end? Does the roto-joint allow for sufficient articulation even with poly at the other end or is the bind of the poly still causing a problem?

Just curious....
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:20 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by 2QuikTA View Post
If you have the money, skip the PHB and get a watts link
I love mine!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Watts_linkage.gif
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Old 05-02-2012, 02:40 PM   #16
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I was not a fan of poly bushings on my LCA's at all. Solid was good for me.
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:46 PM   #17
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Whats your view on the LCA's with poly on the chassis end and roto-joint on the axle end? Does the roto-joint allow for sufficient articulation even with poly at the other end or is the bind of the poly still causing a problem?

Just curious....
Honestly I couldn't tell you, that would be a question for someone like Sam Strano. But I can't think of a reason why you would want poly bushings in the first place.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:12 AM   #18
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OK, Thanks,

Perhaps Sam or UMI or BMR might answer that question.
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:05 AM   #19
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The mustang 3 link rear with PHB is functionally similar to the torque arm with PHB setup on 3rd gen and 4th gen f-bodies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPBIV...eature=related

Illustration of watts link vs phb movement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8cJC...743FE48A9E9321

This is the fays2 unit, unfortunately the lighting is poor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFi9Ck5anf0

Here's a watts link, not the Fays2 watts, mounted to a truck that has the bell crank on the diff case. The functioning is similar, though you'll get arguments to which is the better placement for the bell crank (on car frame vs on the axle).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPzDGXXbwKQ
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Old 05-03-2012, 09:08 AM   #20
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Running a poly bushing on the body side can help reduce NVH (noise, vibration, and harshness) that's inevitably generated while driving across various road surfaces. Putting a rod end on the rearend side allows full range of motion for the rearend without the potential of binding that may occur from the increased rigidity of a polyurethane bushing.

Factory parts use rubber bushings which are great at flexing and absorbing NVH, but in a performance setting, that same flexing contributes to wheelhop and reduced performance. It's next to impossible to match the NVH suppression of the factory arms while still addressing the shortcomings that make the factory arms a hindrance. We typically suggest the TCA004, our poly/rod-end control arms, to customers who are looking to get the most handling out of their car and do not mind a bit more interior noise. They're my favorite LCA that we build, but the market for them isn't nearly as close to those who are running poly/poly and are happy with those for street/strip driving and mild handling duties.

If you have any questions, let me know.
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