*Long* Bilstein HD review and questions about how to improve daily driver comfort
06-22-2012, 04:38 AM
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*Long* Bilstein HD review and questions about how to improve daily driver comfort Hey LS1tech, installed my new Bilstein shocks today with the help of a good friend and wanted to share my thoughts for those of you thinking about purchasing them. A little background on my goals and car - my goal in purchasing these was to have as comfortable daily driver car as possible. As comfort was a priority, I stuck with the stock springs. My car is an 02 Z28 M6 with 24,xxx miles. Stock suspension parts except for the bilsteins. All OEM mounts/bushings.
Pros
With regards to pot holes and extremely large road imperfections, the Bilsteins are definitely an improvement over the Decarbons. When I drove over a pot hole or very abrupt dip in the road with the Decarbons, I felt like I could feel my brain rattling around in my head. And while my brain was being jarred, the suspension would float and sway all around for 1-2 seconds afterward, which was very unsettling. With the Bilsteins, hitting a large pothole or abrupt dip is no longer such an "event". The impact harshness is reduced a bit, and the car recovers almost immediately - no more of the floaty feeling after effects I had with the Bilsteins.
Another area where the Bilsteins shine is interstate driving. Previously, I found myself wanting to stick the 60-65 range on the interstate because beyond that, the Decarbons just didn't inspire a lot of confidence. I found that the faster I went, the attention required to keep the car controlled increased significantly. With the Bilsteins, I find myself having to watch my speed because the car seems completely composed at 70-80 MPH. Very confidence inspiring.
The last area of improvement I want to mention is cornering. On the Decarbons, I could come around corners very quickly, but it was about as enjoyable as doing it in a Ford Taurus - the car felt out of it's element and wasn't very fun. With the Bilsteins, the car is totally composed in fast corners. Very solid and lots of fun if cornering is your thing.
Cons
While the topic says "cons", "con" might be more appropriate, because there was only one area I felt came up short. Unfortunately for me, this one area was the whole reason I bought the Bilsteins - Comfort. For your every day minor bumps, ridges and grooves in the road, the Bilsteins showed virtually zero improvement over the Decarbons. In fact, if someone had swapped my shocks overnight and kept it a secret from me, I likely never would have noticed a difference on my daily commute. I still feel lots of little vibrations, rattles and shimmies from the roads on my daily drive that need to be re-paved. If you are thinking about buying these shocks with the hopes your f-body will absorb minor road imperfections more like a Chevrolet Impala than a Chevrolet Cavalier, these shocks by themselves won't do you any good.
Conclusion
While the Bilsteins do a lot of things better than the Decarbons, I am still left feeling a little disappointed. The positive differences I described above are only really experienced while pushing the car's handling limit. On my daily city commute, the difference is negligible. I guess it all comes down to the reason I purchased these. If I had purchased these Bilsteins for weekend twisty carving, I would probably be ecstatic. However, I purchased these so my Camaro would feel a little bit less like a 10 year old Cavalier with a big motor on the front of it - and these Bilsteins didn't really help with that.
Questions
I understand we are talking about F-bodies and not Toyota Avalons here. I'm not expecting my Camaro to feel like a Lexus. However, I know people that have comfortable, solid F-bodies.. on stock Decarbons. Mine is not one of them.
This is what I'm trying to accomplish:
1) Not feel every single little 2 mm bump and ridge on the road in the seat of my pants
2) Not HEAR every single little 2 mm bump and ridge on the road in every single plastic panel in my car.
Does anyone here have any suggestions about how to improve the ability of an F-body to absorb minor road imperfections and not transfer every little bit of it to the driver/cabin?? I have played with the tire pressure and even swapped tires - this made virtually no difference. Any suggestions/comments would be appreciated.
Pros
With regards to pot holes and extremely large road imperfections, the Bilsteins are definitely an improvement over the Decarbons. When I drove over a pot hole or very abrupt dip in the road with the Decarbons, I felt like I could feel my brain rattling around in my head. And while my brain was being jarred, the suspension would float and sway all around for 1-2 seconds afterward, which was very unsettling. With the Bilsteins, hitting a large pothole or abrupt dip is no longer such an "event". The impact harshness is reduced a bit, and the car recovers almost immediately - no more of the floaty feeling after effects I had with the Bilsteins.
Another area where the Bilsteins shine is interstate driving. Previously, I found myself wanting to stick the 60-65 range on the interstate because beyond that, the Decarbons just didn't inspire a lot of confidence. I found that the faster I went, the attention required to keep the car controlled increased significantly. With the Bilsteins, I find myself having to watch my speed because the car seems completely composed at 70-80 MPH. Very confidence inspiring.
The last area of improvement I want to mention is cornering. On the Decarbons, I could come around corners very quickly, but it was about as enjoyable as doing it in a Ford Taurus - the car felt out of it's element and wasn't very fun. With the Bilsteins, the car is totally composed in fast corners. Very solid and lots of fun if cornering is your thing.
Cons
While the topic says "cons", "con" might be more appropriate, because there was only one area I felt came up short. Unfortunately for me, this one area was the whole reason I bought the Bilsteins - Comfort. For your every day minor bumps, ridges and grooves in the road, the Bilsteins showed virtually zero improvement over the Decarbons. In fact, if someone had swapped my shocks overnight and kept it a secret from me, I likely never would have noticed a difference on my daily commute. I still feel lots of little vibrations, rattles and shimmies from the roads on my daily drive that need to be re-paved. If you are thinking about buying these shocks with the hopes your f-body will absorb minor road imperfections more like a Chevrolet Impala than a Chevrolet Cavalier, these shocks by themselves won't do you any good.
Conclusion
While the Bilsteins do a lot of things better than the Decarbons, I am still left feeling a little disappointed. The positive differences I described above are only really experienced while pushing the car's handling limit. On my daily city commute, the difference is negligible. I guess it all comes down to the reason I purchased these. If I had purchased these Bilsteins for weekend twisty carving, I would probably be ecstatic. However, I purchased these so my Camaro would feel a little bit less like a 10 year old Cavalier with a big motor on the front of it - and these Bilsteins didn't really help with that.
Questions
I understand we are talking about F-bodies and not Toyota Avalons here. I'm not expecting my Camaro to feel like a Lexus. However, I know people that have comfortable, solid F-bodies.. on stock Decarbons. Mine is not one of them.
This is what I'm trying to accomplish:
1) Not feel every single little 2 mm bump and ridge on the road in the seat of my pants
2) Not HEAR every single little 2 mm bump and ridge on the road in every single plastic panel in my car.
Does anyone here have any suggestions about how to improve the ability of an F-body to absorb minor road imperfections and not transfer every little bit of it to the driver/cabin?? I have played with the tire pressure and even swapped tires - this made virtually no difference. Any suggestions/comments would be appreciated.
Last edited by Onyx_Black_Z28; 06-25-2012 at 02:19 PM.
06-22-2012, 06:46 AM
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It depends on what you have in the car now. We had a similar thread like this recently.
I think going back to a stock 16 inch wheel with something like a Nitto 555 street tire will soften it up a bit. That's obviously not an option for most people though.
I think going back to a stock 16 inch wheel with something like a Nitto 555 street tire will soften it up a bit. That's obviously not an option for most people though.
06-22-2012, 01:02 PM
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Z28Bryan, car is on 16" stockers and factory tires. I actually switched on a friend's 17s with way nicer brand new tires for a night to see if my tires were the issue, and it made almost no difference. My car just feels raggedy/flimsy over rough roads compared to friends f-bodies. My only mods are lid/cat-back and replaced OEM rubber transmission mount. No mods whatsoever that should hinder comfort. Can you post a link to the thread?
Last edited by Onyx_Black_Z28; 06-22-2012 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Clarity
06-22-2012, 01:23 PM
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Stock springs, and good shocks, about the only thing left you could do is run the softest sidewall, narrowest tires you could reasonably fit on the wheels. Something like bridgestone serenity turanza's, even then I don't know if you could arrive at the level your thinking of.
What are your friend's setups?
What are your friend's setups?
06-22-2012, 01:25 PM
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I have the SLP Bilstein shocks on mine and took it to a shop this week. I had them check all my bushings for splits, wear and check the alignment.
I was told the bushings all looked good and they adjusted the camber and toe-in. They also sprayed all the rubber under the car with Car Quest Multipurpose lube.
I could feel a difference in the ride right away. It feels much smoother over the little bumps. The T-tops didn't squeak as much as they did on the way to the shop.
The rubber gets hard with age and this stuff is supposed to penetrate and soften it. I would spray every piece of rubber you can find under the car.
Todd
I was told the bushings all looked good and they adjusted the camber and toe-in. They also sprayed all the rubber under the car with Car Quest Multipurpose lube.
I could feel a difference in the ride right away. It feels much smoother over the little bumps. The T-tops didn't squeak as much as they did on the way to the shop.
The rubber gets hard with age and this stuff is supposed to penetrate and soften it. I would spray every piece of rubber you can find under the car.
Todd
06-22-2012, 01:35 PM
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Stock springs, and good shocks, about the only thing left you could do is run the softest sidewall, narrowest tires you could reasonably fit on the wheels. Something like bridgestone serenity turanza's, even then I don't know if you could arrive at the level your thinking of.
What are your friend's setups?
What are your friend's setups?
Like I mentioned above, my car just feels plain old and raggedy over just slight road imperfections - like all the insulation has been stripped out of it. Everything is transferred to the cabin/passengers, whereas in my friends rides, I can't feel about 80% of that stuff. The only thing I can guess is suspension joints/bushings somewhere. I've been under the car to inspect all of it and everything looks great, but I may just have to start replacing that stuff a piece at a time.
06-22-2012, 01:38 PM
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I have the SLP Bilstein shocks on mine and took it to a shop this week. I had them check all my bushings for splits, wear and check the alignment.
I was told the bushings all looked good and they adjusted the camber and toe-in. They also sprayed all the rubber under the car with Car Quest Multipurpose lube.
I could feel a difference in the ride right away. It feels much smoother over the little bumps. The T-tops didn't squeak as much as they did on the way to the shop.
The rubber gets hard with age and this stuff is supposed to penetrate and soften it. I would spray every piece of rubber you can find under the car.
Todd
I was told the bushings all looked good and they adjusted the camber and toe-in. They also sprayed all the rubber under the car with Car Quest Multipurpose lube.
I could feel a difference in the ride right away. It feels much smoother over the little bumps. The T-tops didn't squeak as much as they did on the way to the shop.
The rubber gets hard with age and this stuff is supposed to penetrate and soften it. I would spray every piece of rubber you can find under the car.
Todd
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06-22-2012, 01:38 PM
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You might want to take a look at all of your stock bushings. Mine are pretty much shot around the control arms and front sway bar. I'm not sure how much this would help, but I'm sure every little bit would show "some" improvement. Sub-frame connectors would help with some of the rattles, but it would also make the chassis more rigid.
06-22-2012, 01:47 PM
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You might want to take a look at all of your stock bushings. Mine are pretty much shot around the control arms and front sway bar. I'm not sure how much this would help, but I'm sure every little bit would show "some" improvement. Sub-frame connectors would help with some of the rattles, but it would also make the chassis more rigid.
What do you guys think about this as a possible fix? It's a kit from Strano that basically replaces the ball joints and LCA bushings.
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetai...D=18&ModelID=7
06-22-2012, 01:47 PM
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Todd, that's interesting. So they literally just sprayed multipurpose lube on all the rubber bushings? I'm going to have to try that - because while I'm no expert, all the bushings under my car look like they are in great shape. Rubber seems very fresh and soft - for a 10 year old car, anyway.
I only drove it for an hour after they did it but I think it rode better and I know the T-tops were quieter. I hope to get some more miles on it over the weekend and see if I still feel an improvement.
I used to spray all the bushings and body mounts on my cars regularly and it always helped. For the price of a can it is worth a try.
Todd
06-22-2012, 02:03 PM
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You wrote a very thoughtful and well-composed assessment of your experience with your shocks — great job!
I commute to work on the interstate 40 miles each day, and my main focus is comfort. Below are some modifications that I made to my 2002 Camaro with 47,XXX miles on it and 16" rims; take this information for what you think it's worth.
I am a strong proponent of subframe connectors. I installed triangulated subframe connectors from SLP shortly after I purchased my car brand-new, and they helped to eliminate the squeaks and rattles that the car had right off the showroom floor. My car felt stiffer, more poised if you will, but it didn't ride harsher; it rode smoother.
I really appreciate the three layers of sound-deadening material that I installed throughout my car (the manufacturer isn't an LS1Tech.com sponsor, so I won't include the name). This material really makes the car much more quiet and enjoyable at freeway speeds, and greatly minimizes the squeaks and rattles that occur when driving down a gravel road.
Again, these are two solutions that have worked great for me in the conditions in which I drive. Everyone's expectations and experiences will differ, so, again, take my information for what you think it's worth.
I wish you the very best of luck in finding a viable solution that will solve your problem and meet your needs.
I commute to work on the interstate 40 miles each day, and my main focus is comfort. Below are some modifications that I made to my 2002 Camaro with 47,XXX miles on it and 16" rims; take this information for what you think it's worth.
I am a strong proponent of subframe connectors. I installed triangulated subframe connectors from SLP shortly after I purchased my car brand-new, and they helped to eliminate the squeaks and rattles that the car had right off the showroom floor. My car felt stiffer, more poised if you will, but it didn't ride harsher; it rode smoother.
I really appreciate the three layers of sound-deadening material that I installed throughout my car (the manufacturer isn't an LS1Tech.com sponsor, so I won't include the name). This material really makes the car much more quiet and enjoyable at freeway speeds, and greatly minimizes the squeaks and rattles that occur when driving down a gravel road.
Again, these are two solutions that have worked great for me in the conditions in which I drive. Everyone's expectations and experiences will differ, so, again, take my information for what you think it's worth.
I wish you the very best of luck in finding a viable solution that will solve your problem and meet your needs.
06-22-2012, 02:37 PM
#13
What tires? What air pressues? My OEM GS-C's rode like crap when the compound got hard (before they wore out in fact and in less than 2 years and 25k miles). If you are running more than 30 psi that's asking for a harsh, or more harsh ride. Also the shocks are brand new. Tight seals and all. They will get a bit better with a few miles on them as those seals aren't as sticky.
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06-22-2012, 02:51 PM
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What tires? What air pressues? My OEM GS-C's rode like crap when the compound got hard (before they wore out in fact and in less than 2 years and 25k miles). If you are running more than 30 psi that's asking for a harsh, or more harsh ride. Also the shocks are brand new. Tight seals and all. They will get a bit better with a few miles on them as those seals aren't as sticky.
If bushings on my car were in fact bad - what is the result that you usually see in these situations? I have been looking at your LCA factory rebuild kit as a possibility ever since I started researching this issue months ago.
06-22-2012, 02:54 PM
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You wrote a very thoughtful and well-composed assessment of your experience with your shocks — great job!
I commute to work on the interstate 40 miles each day, and my main focus is comfort. Below are some modifications that I made to my 2002 Camaro with 47,XXX miles on it and 16" rims; take this information for what you think it's worth.
I am a strong proponent of subframe connectors. I installed triangulated subframe connectors from SLP shortly after I purchased my car brand-new, and they helped to eliminate the squeaks and rattles that the car had right off the showroom floor. My car felt stiffer, more poised if you will, but it didn't ride harsher; it rode smoother.
I really appreciate the three layers of sound-deadening material that I installed throughout my car (the manufacturer isn't an LS1Tech.com sponsor, so I won't include the name). This material really makes the car much more quiet and enjoyable at freeway speeds, and greatly minimizes the squeaks and rattles that occur when driving down a gravel road.
Again, these are two solutions that have worked great for me in the conditions in which I drive. Everyone's expectations and experiences will differ, so, again, take my information for what you think it's worth.
I wish you the very best of luck in finding a viable solution that will solve your problem and meet your needs.
I commute to work on the interstate 40 miles each day, and my main focus is comfort. Below are some modifications that I made to my 2002 Camaro with 47,XXX miles on it and 16" rims; take this information for what you think it's worth.
I am a strong proponent of subframe connectors. I installed triangulated subframe connectors from SLP shortly after I purchased my car brand-new, and they helped to eliminate the squeaks and rattles that the car had right off the showroom floor. My car felt stiffer, more poised if you will, but it didn't ride harsher; it rode smoother.
I really appreciate the three layers of sound-deadening material that I installed throughout my car (the manufacturer isn't an LS1Tech.com sponsor, so I won't include the name). This material really makes the car much more quiet and enjoyable at freeway speeds, and greatly minimizes the squeaks and rattles that occur when driving down a gravel road.
Again, these are two solutions that have worked great for me in the conditions in which I drive. Everyone's expectations and experiences will differ, so, again, take my information for what you think it's worth.
I wish you the very best of luck in finding a viable solution that will solve your problem and meet your needs.
06-22-2012, 07:22 PM
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Guys, I'm 100% confident that tires are not causing the problem. As mentioned above, I swapped the wheels/tires off of a friend's Trans Am. His Trans Am is not a WS6 and has the exact same suspension RPO code as mine. He is still running the stock Decarbons/full stock suspension. If you drive mine then hop out and drive his, it feels like you just got into a Lexus by comparison. If his tires were the key to this difference I'm describing, it would have been immediately evident when I put on his wheels/tires. Instead, there was virtually zero difference, so the difference is elsewhere.
I priced out what it costs to buy Moog bushings to replace just about every suspension bushing on the car today. Anyone have experience with swapping out ball joints/control arm bushings/panhard rod?? Is it a difficult job?
06-22-2012, 07:48 PM
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Haha! I'll be looking forward to replacing my old stockers.
I priced out what it costs to buy Moog bushings to replace just about every suspension bushing on the car today. Anyone have experience with swapping out ball joints/control arm bushings/panhard rod?? Is it a difficult job?
I priced out what it costs to buy Moog bushings to replace just about every suspension bushing on the car today. Anyone have experience with swapping out ball joints/control arm bushings/panhard rod?? Is it a difficult job?
06-22-2012, 07:50 PM
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Both - all the control arm bushings. The panhard rod would just be a premium Moog OEM replacement. Glad to hear the panhard is fairly simple - how about the control arms?
06-22-2012, 08:14 PM
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