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Old 01-17-2014, 02:24 PM   #21
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I've run both staggered and 315 square. I prefer the square set up but I think that's mostly because of the meat up front helps mask a lot of my would be understeer mistakes.
On the street, I'd much rather understeer, at least my car is in a straight line. Oversteer will put you who knows where? Auto-X, I'd prefer a slight oversteer if I could choose.
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Old 01-17-2014, 10:36 PM   #22
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There might be a little confusion, but I'm the one with Koni shocks and I've got 18x9.5 +56mm wheels on all fours, with 275-35zr18 nitto nt555 wheels. I'm looking into getting new wheels and tires and was just curious if I could get anything that would help me a little better
lighter weight tire/wheel combo, perhaps?
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:55 PM   #23
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I currently have c6 zr1 replicas, and I'm looking to get a set of forgestar cf5's soon, except they'll be 18x10 or 10.5. I'm still sure it'll shed some weight though
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Old 01-18-2014, 03:22 PM   #24
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Toyo R888 would be my pick for a tire that would help handling and still be a decent streetable tire.

Also, I'd still set the Konis to full soft in the rear. That's how Strano recommends you run them with his springs. You may be upsetting the rear a little with it set too hard.
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Old 01-20-2014, 11:04 AM   #25
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I'd still like to know what the goal is. Street? Autocross? Track days? What are you doing?

The wheels you are running are fine unless you just want wider ones to be wider. No value at all in swapping them for weight. The benefits of shedding a pound or 2 in unsprung weight will never be seen or felt in a street car. 555s are not the worst tire you could have on the car by a long shot either. But it really depends on what you are trying to do.

If I were you I would not spend a dime and you can still easily fix your problem. Since you have the Konis set your fronts to about mid hard and the rears full soft. Then put a proper alignment on the car which you can easily do yourself. Click here for how. Otherwise take it to a shop and tell them you want all the negative camber and all the positive caster the car will give you with 0 toe.

Thatís it all you need to do to fix the car and the problem will be 100% solved. How? Go learn how to drive. The best performance part on any car is the driver and it is always the cheapest to fix too. Set your braking points a bit sooner and get the car rotated on slight power and you will not understeer anymore. Learn how to use more power to create oversteer and how to modulate it through the corner to rotate the car effectively. Learn how late you can trailbrake into a corner and left foot braking but be careful if you have wheel hop under brake because it will kill your diff.

Your car is a great starting point and you would be much better off spending that tire and wheel money for run fees at autocrosses. Watch the leader board and find a guy with a Camaro or Mustang that has fast times and ride with him. Then ask if he will ride with you and ask where you can improve. Itís a drivers game and a driver with a little know how in a lousy car will beat a lousy driver in a killer car every time.
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Old 01-20-2014, 01:35 PM   #26
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That's a crazy write-up charchri.

Good advice on the alignment specs. I usually take it somewhere and bitch at them until I get something close to this:

-1.5 camber
4.5-5 caster (more on passenger side to account for the crown of the road)
0 toe
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:35 PM   #27
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Well I suck then... I bought the strano sway bar set and all the springs and shocks this past summer, and didn't get the adjustable sway bar thinking I wouldn't need it. I guess now I know better
Hold on a minute... you don't NEED to have the adjustable rear bar (though I have one in stock if anyone wants one ).

I have only got to the end of page 1 so far so maybe things change later, but I'm discouraged, but not shocked, at the "answers" so far. No talk of alignment (or what his is), what the tires are, what size, rims, etc.

Here's what's not causing the understeer... the rear axle. It's not a huge help to handling, but not at the cost of balance. My guess is the car has a pretty stock alignment on it, and probably has staggered tires (and likely not great tires at that). Shock settings do NOT change the balance of the car. Turning the rears way up makes things different, but cornering balance is not one of them.

So, I ask.... What's the complete setup? Let's find that out first. Then tell me when/what conditions are (what's going on) when it understeers. I ask that because I had a Mustang guy last week bitching about understeer, and what he was going was causing it big time. He would turn, the car would enter fine. It'll all be fine and go where it was pointed until he..... Yanked on the wheel more and hit the gas. While that's understeer in the most basic sense, that's induced understeer (a driving error). Physics don't take a day off magically with suspension changes.
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Old 01-21-2014, 06:38 PM   #28
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The idea of understeer just worries me, because understeer is worse than oversteer, and apparently is hard to cure. I know I'm not driving a Corvette, but after I put all this time and money in the car I'd like it to perform appropriately.
Thanks for the continual input guys
Well, my old Camaro can and does run times right around where my Corvette does. Spending money alone doesn't make fast on it's own. Details matter, and that's the difference with me and many..... Since I actually race the cars, and have been for a long time there are things that can help that not everyone who sells parts might not know.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:29 PM   #29
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To clarify, I've never actually pushed the car to the point of understeer. My car has been 100% street since I bought it, and I've slowly been tinkering with it. I want to know that should I ever bring it to a course to autocross it, it'll behave properly. Also, considering the car is auto, this will probably never happen
Anyways, my car has 18x9.5 +56mm c6 zr1 replicas on all fours, with 273/35/zr18 nitto 555r tires on them.
For suspension, I have strano springs and koni 4/3's front and rear, as well as strano hollow sway bars. I have a umi torque arm, panhard rod, rear lca's, and front upper a-arms. The rear is a strange s60
I can't think of anything else to add right now... Thanks in advance
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:13 AM   #30
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Well this is where I have to be blunt with you.

Driver has a LOT to do with the way the car handles. I see it all the time instructing, folks just do things that can cause the car to push or be loose when I have no trouble with it, or vice-versa. For example. I taught a school with a bunch of GM engineers one day driving Solstice GXP's. One, the most experienced one, told me he wanted to learn how to get out of corners with some boost available..... Fine. Well, long story short I could leave the corner crossed up on power/boost and he was always dying (and I was much faster on the whole course). Why? Easy, he just overdrove the car a lot on the way in, right into a push or "understeer". Then when the car wouldn't turn he could not pick up any throttle where I could. This is the SAME CAR, driven withing minutes.

Here's a lapping day back in 2010 in my Camaro (sold and in TX and there is video on the website of it autocrossing since on my website too). It's on my bars, my springs, Koni's and a few other things... Watts link, upgraded LSD, stock control arms, light flywheel, etc. http://www.stranoparts.com/videos.php?VideoID=2

I think it handles ok. Won me championships... But "handling" is not just a matter of what parts you throw on the car, it's about how those are setup, and used, and what other parts are there too. And that, is what makes this shop different from most. I drive these around corners. I've had success doing it. I also know that there is magic answer, and unlike some who will tell you something like "there is only one shock setting that works so having adjustable shocks is a waste", and yes that's been said, I'll be honest even when it's maybe not in my own best interest. Much easier to tell folks what they want to hear....

How about this for an idea? You go try an autocross. We make decisions based on what's happening instead of some theory or based on internet suggestions. I'll guarantee if you go autocross and haven't done it before things might not go so well. Ask for help from more experience drivers. It's amazing how much understeer goes away when the car is driven properly. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you are a bad driver, I don't know you. I am saying in all the years I've done it, I've seen 2 people with no previous experience have enough of a clue I had not much to fix. I'm one of them that had to learn these things too.... I wasn't good enough for a long time in terms of driving (had to learn like everyone else) to setup a car well. I'd end up chasing my tail because I'd make mistakes. Since that time when I was 20 in a old beat up 280ZX, I've learned a lot.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:34 AM   #31
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Thanks for your help, and I've already watched most of your videos to get a clue about what to do when the time comes
It'd be hard for me to get to an autocross event without a lot of planning just because I live in Southwestern Ontario and not a lot of that stuff goes on around me
I plan on getting out this summer to at least one event, so I'll see how it goes
Thanks again

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Old 01-23-2014, 11:58 AM   #32
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They autocross in Canada.... And SW Ontario isn't very specific, but they autocross in around both Buffalo and Detroit.

Sam
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:41 PM   #33
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I'm right on the border to Detroit, so I'll have to check that out
Thanks!
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:01 PM   #34
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Oh then you have a lot of options. Detriot, Toledo runs nice events. There events all over Michigan.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:28 PM   #35
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Well thank you again for your help Sam, I'm glad I bought from you
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:45 PM   #36
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ta-brian, if you want to try some driving events in the warmer months, head over to motorsportreg.com (hope this doesn't violate forum rules). Plug in your address and it will tell you all of the events in your area. With many clubs you can even pre-register online. Once you go to an event, utilize instructors as much as possible, I can't stress that enough. Most clubs are super friendly and more than willing to give advice to a rookie.
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Old 01-23-2014, 05:58 PM   #37
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TA-brian, if you're willing to travel a few hours to get to a track, Gingerman Raceway in South Haven MI has regular HPDEs. You could probably make it there from Port Huron in four hours or so. They are cheap and very relaxed. Plus, I understand they let SCCA members onto the track for test and tune in that time between when a sanctioned event ends on Sunday and the sky gets too dark to run. I've gone there in my bone stock Grand Prix on an open track & pig roast weekend and had a very good time. At the same time, my friend John drove the TA and embarrassed drivers in some VERY expensive cars with it. But then, he's got 15+ years of motorcycle road racing under his belt.

I'm still a noob.

I learned how to do (a lot of) point-bys in the GP GXP, but I also tuned myself as a driver. I'd almost argue that starting with an auto trans on a small track like Gingerman helps you learn to focus on car-independent things better (no shifting to distract you, etc).

The Frankenstein in my footer is a slow project in progress, getting most of its go fast and handling parts in response to track experience. It is way more capable than I am, but John can take it to the limit.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:27 AM   #38
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Thanks for the tips guys
1981TA I'm actually in Windsor, so South Haven is only about 3 hours from me.
The main reason I'm worried about travelling that far is that if I break anything it's a long tow home
I'd like to get out on a track though, so I might just have to take the risk
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:30 PM   #39
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I'm glad I finally get to learn more of this stuff. I tried to get on ffrax but they weren't accepting new members when I checked last
Thanks again guys
No kidding... Glad I joined when I did, then.
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Old 01-24-2014, 05:04 PM   #40
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Hold on a minute... you don't NEED to have the adjustable rear bar (though I have one in stock if anyone wants one ).

I have only got to the end of page 1 so far so maybe things change later, but I'm discouraged, but not shocked, at the "answers" so far. No talk of alignment (or what his is), what the tires are, what size, rims, etc.

Here's what's not causing the understeer... the rear axle. It's not a huge help to handling, but not at the cost of balance. My guess is the car has a pretty stock alignment on it, and probably has staggered tires (and likely not great tires at that). Shock settings do NOT change the balance of the car. Turning the rears way up makes things different, but cornering balance is not one of them.

So, I ask.... What's the complete setup? Let's find that out first. Then tell me when/what conditions are (what's going on) when it understeers. I ask that because I had a Mustang guy last week bitching about understeer, and what he was going was causing it big time. He would turn, the car would enter fine. It'll all be fine and go where it was pointed until he..... Yanked on the wheel more and hit the gas. While that's understeer in the most basic sense, that's induced understeer (a driving error). Physics don't take a day off magically with suspension changes.
Im no handling guru, but some of the same thoughts had crossed my mind. I always thought that understeer was attributed to...

A: Front tire contact patch while turning (how well the tires maintain centered rubber contact as the spindle pivots left or right)

B: how much the rear differential is allowing the rear tires to turn at separate speed while the engine applies torque through the driveline. (anybody with a spooled rear knows what I'm talking about)

A a locking diff, would limit torque vectoring and definitely cause a push. For that matter, staggered rear/front tires could exacerbate the problem by allowing the rear axle to apply leverage against the front of the car and pushing upon acceleration.

But that's just my thinking on it.
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