5 Shocks, SFC, LCA/PHB questions - What a deal!
04-21-2014, 11:18 PM
#1
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
5 Shocks, SFC, LCA/PHB questions - What a deal! Hey guys, been reading/searching the forums for a bit, and shopping every sponsor's site trying to find the right things to buy, but getting lost in all the debates. Can you guys help me understand a few things?
Oh, btw, here are my specs/goals. 2001 M6 T-Top SS with mods in sig. Stock 275x17 wheels/tires. Never had drags or slicks, currently on all seasons (had them before it became a fair weather car), but will eventually get a permanent set of summers. Fair weather car. Sees a drag strip once a year, but want it more for the street. Heads & Cam are the next project, but I'm looking for fast, but grounded, cornering and handling - but also something that won't want to make me shoot myself after a 350 mile cruise. I LIKE feeling every bump on the road, but I don't want to feel like I just landed a Gone in 60 Seconds jump after each one either.
The shopping list currently consists of: Rear sway bar, LCAs, PHB, maybe torque arm, maybe SFC
1) If you look at my sig, you'll see I have Strano Springs & Front swaybar + Bilstein (not HD) all around. It definitely helped toward my goal of having a BMW Camaro SS, but not quite. The Bilstein's are pretty decent, but in road dips or incidental potholes, it feels like the car just dropped from 50 ft in the air. Whether you get my meaning or not...is Bilstein to Koni SA a big difference? Or is it one of those "You shoulda done Konis when you started, but now it's not worth the money/effort"?
2) Subframe Connectors. Hotly debated as "the best mod ever" or "placebo mod." Threads like this: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...onnectors.html seem to suggest that MWC makes the only real SFC, and everyone else is not really connecting subframes. If that's the case, why would anyone buy anything else?
BONUS QUESTION - If I ended up getting a tunnel brace, would that be a problem for those 3 point subframes?
BONUSER QUESTION - Is there any benefit gained by a 3 point vs. 2 point SFC?
3) Single Adjustable vs. Double Adjustable vs. On Car Adjustable LCAs and/or PHB. What are all the differences? I've seen one post where someone said "Double Adjustable = On Car Adjustable." If that's the case, why do I see different part numbers for DA vs. On Car Adjustable?
4) If I buy one of these aftermarket LCAs, do I need to buy an LCA relocation bracket, or do they usually come with? My car is lowered via Strano springs...does that make a difference?
5) UMI Roto Joint vs. Founders Poly/Swivel Joint vs. Poly bushings. Sounds like if I want to do any fast cornering, I should stay away from straight poly bushings because of binding issues. Are there any pros/cons for going UMI Roto vs Founders Swivel?
Thanks in advance!
Oh, btw, here are my specs/goals. 2001 M6 T-Top SS with mods in sig. Stock 275x17 wheels/tires. Never had drags or slicks, currently on all seasons (had them before it became a fair weather car), but will eventually get a permanent set of summers. Fair weather car. Sees a drag strip once a year, but want it more for the street. Heads & Cam are the next project, but I'm looking for fast, but grounded, cornering and handling - but also something that won't want to make me shoot myself after a 350 mile cruise. I LIKE feeling every bump on the road, but I don't want to feel like I just landed a Gone in 60 Seconds jump after each one either.
The shopping list currently consists of: Rear sway bar, LCAs, PHB, maybe torque arm, maybe SFC
1) If you look at my sig, you'll see I have Strano Springs & Front swaybar + Bilstein (not HD) all around. It definitely helped toward my goal of having a BMW Camaro SS, but not quite. The Bilstein's are pretty decent, but in road dips or incidental potholes, it feels like the car just dropped from 50 ft in the air. Whether you get my meaning or not...is Bilstein to Koni SA a big difference? Or is it one of those "You shoulda done Konis when you started, but now it's not worth the money/effort"?
2) Subframe Connectors. Hotly debated as "the best mod ever" or "placebo mod." Threads like this: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...onnectors.html seem to suggest that MWC makes the only real SFC, and everyone else is not really connecting subframes. If that's the case, why would anyone buy anything else?
BONUS QUESTION - If I ended up getting a tunnel brace, would that be a problem for those 3 point subframes?
BONUSER QUESTION - Is there any benefit gained by a 3 point vs. 2 point SFC?
3) Single Adjustable vs. Double Adjustable vs. On Car Adjustable LCAs and/or PHB. What are all the differences? I've seen one post where someone said "Double Adjustable = On Car Adjustable." If that's the case, why do I see different part numbers for DA vs. On Car Adjustable?
4) If I buy one of these aftermarket LCAs, do I need to buy an LCA relocation bracket, or do they usually come with? My car is lowered via Strano springs...does that make a difference?
5) UMI Roto Joint vs. Founders Poly/Swivel Joint vs. Poly bushings. Sounds like if I want to do any fast cornering, I should stay away from straight poly bushings because of binding issues. Are there any pros/cons for going UMI Roto vs Founders Swivel?
Thanks in advance!
04-23-2014, 08:43 AM
#4
Hey guys, been reading/searching the forums for a bit, and shopping every sponsor's site trying to find the right things to buy, but getting lost in all the debates. Can you guys help me understand a few things?
Oh, btw, here are my specs/goals. 2001 M6 T-Top SS with mods in sig. Stock 275x17 wheels/tires. Never had drags or slicks, currently on all seasons (had them before it became a fair weather car), but will eventually get a permanent set of summers. Fair weather car. Sees a drag strip once a year, but want it more for the street. Heads & Cam are the next project, but I'm looking for fast, but grounded, cornering and handling - but also something that won't want to make me shoot myself after a 350 mile cruise. I LIKE feeling every bump on the road, but I don't want to feel like I just landed a Gone in 60 Seconds jump after each one either.
The shopping list currently consists of: Rear sway bar, LCAs, PHB, maybe torque arm, maybe SFC
1) If you look at my sig, you'll see I have Strano Springs & Front swaybar + Bilstein (not HD) all around. It definitely helped toward my goal of having a BMW Camaro SS, but not quite. The Bilstein's are pretty decent, but in road dips or incidental potholes, it feels like the car just dropped from 50 ft in the air. Whether you get my meaning or not...is Bilstein to Koni SA a big difference? Or is it one of those "You shoulda done Konis when you started, but now it's not worth the money/effort"?
Koni's feel pretty nice and there is a lot of Koni love on here. Bilsteins are "what you get that are pretty good when you don't want to buy Koni's". My advice would be to do the other stuff below if you don't want to take the car apart right now. Then if it's not to your liking, change the shocks out. I've driven Koni/Strano cars and they work pretty awesome but so does other combos.
2) Subframe Connectors. Hotly debated as "the best mod ever" or "placebo mod." Threads like this: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...onnectors.html seem to suggest that MWC makes the only real SFC, and everyone else is not really connecting subframes. If that's the case, why would anyone buy anything else?
BONUS QUESTION - If I ended up getting a tunnel brace, would that be a problem for those 3 point subframes?
BONUSER QUESTION - Is there any benefit gained by a 3 point vs. 2 point SFC?
Our SFC's lock the front of the car to the rear LCA pickup points. While MWC does make a nice "true" subframe connector I think the market tends to use our style. What I care about really, is that the rear suspension pickup points stay where they should vs the front. Our style is SFC and pickup point stability in the same unit.
Tunnel brace mounted torque arms and 3 point SFC's are designed to work together and build a vault under the car.
2 points were the norm for a long time. Three point is just a premium choice and helps stabilize the tunnel brace area. The benefit is hard to measure numerically but in non-engineering data terms, 2 point is better than zero and 3 point is a tiny bit better than 2. We have lots of cars with nice straight quarter panels and door gaps on 2 points.
3) Single Adjustable vs. Double Adjustable vs. On Car Adjustable LCAs and/or PHB. What are all the differences? I've seen one post where someone said "Double Adjustable = On Car Adjustable." If that's the case, why do I see different part numbers for DA vs. On Car adjustable?
We tend to call a unit with a full arm and rod ends or Roto-Joints double adjustable whereas ones with a turnbuckle are on-car adjustable. Two terms for the same end result. With d/a you have to turn the whole arm. With on-car you just turn the turnbuckle.
4) If I buy one of these aftermarket LCAs, do I need to buy an LCA relocation bracket, or do they usually come with? My car is lowered via Strano springs...does that make a difference?
LCA relocation brackets are used to correct lower control arm slope and bring the lower mount back to the correct location. A side effect is increased dragstrip forward traction when used on the lower hole. Some will tell you about rear steer (which is a real thing) with excessive angle. If you're going to the strip you can put them on the lowest hole. If you're going road racing you can move them up a hole to correct the angle but not introduce any other issues. Sometimes we use rear steer on the lower holes for tuning effect.
5) UMI Roto Joint vs. Founders Poly/Swivel Joint vs. Poly bushings. Sounds like if I want to do any fast cornering, I should stay away from straight poly bushings because of binding issues. Are there any pros/cons for going UMI Roto vs Founders Swivel?
The UMI Roto-Joint is a premium product built by us. We use Dupont Delrin 150 as the liner and it dampens some vibration while allowing for awesome articulation. It's a cross between the comfort of poly and the performance of a rod end. Our Roto is tried and true.
Thanks in advance!
Oh, btw, here are my specs/goals. 2001 M6 T-Top SS with mods in sig. Stock 275x17 wheels/tires. Never had drags or slicks, currently on all seasons (had them before it became a fair weather car), but will eventually get a permanent set of summers. Fair weather car. Sees a drag strip once a year, but want it more for the street. Heads & Cam are the next project, but I'm looking for fast, but grounded, cornering and handling - but also something that won't want to make me shoot myself after a 350 mile cruise. I LIKE feeling every bump on the road, but I don't want to feel like I just landed a Gone in 60 Seconds jump after each one either.
The shopping list currently consists of: Rear sway bar, LCAs, PHB, maybe torque arm, maybe SFC
1) If you look at my sig, you'll see I have Strano Springs & Front swaybar + Bilstein (not HD) all around. It definitely helped toward my goal of having a BMW Camaro SS, but not quite. The Bilstein's are pretty decent, but in road dips or incidental potholes, it feels like the car just dropped from 50 ft in the air. Whether you get my meaning or not...is Bilstein to Koni SA a big difference? Or is it one of those "You shoulda done Konis when you started, but now it's not worth the money/effort"?
Koni's feel pretty nice and there is a lot of Koni love on here. Bilsteins are "what you get that are pretty good when you don't want to buy Koni's". My advice would be to do the other stuff below if you don't want to take the car apart right now. Then if it's not to your liking, change the shocks out. I've driven Koni/Strano cars and they work pretty awesome but so does other combos.
2) Subframe Connectors. Hotly debated as "the best mod ever" or "placebo mod." Threads like this: https://ls1tech.com/forums/suspensio...onnectors.html seem to suggest that MWC makes the only real SFC, and everyone else is not really connecting subframes. If that's the case, why would anyone buy anything else?
BONUS QUESTION - If I ended up getting a tunnel brace, would that be a problem for those 3 point subframes?
BONUSER QUESTION - Is there any benefit gained by a 3 point vs. 2 point SFC?
Our SFC's lock the front of the car to the rear LCA pickup points. While MWC does make a nice "true" subframe connector I think the market tends to use our style. What I care about really, is that the rear suspension pickup points stay where they should vs the front. Our style is SFC and pickup point stability in the same unit.
Tunnel brace mounted torque arms and 3 point SFC's are designed to work together and build a vault under the car.
2 points were the norm for a long time. Three point is just a premium choice and helps stabilize the tunnel brace area. The benefit is hard to measure numerically but in non-engineering data terms, 2 point is better than zero and 3 point is a tiny bit better than 2. We have lots of cars with nice straight quarter panels and door gaps on 2 points.
3) Single Adjustable vs. Double Adjustable vs. On Car Adjustable LCAs and/or PHB. What are all the differences? I've seen one post where someone said "Double Adjustable = On Car Adjustable." If that's the case, why do I see different part numbers for DA vs. On Car adjustable?
We tend to call a unit with a full arm and rod ends or Roto-Joints double adjustable whereas ones with a turnbuckle are on-car adjustable. Two terms for the same end result. With d/a you have to turn the whole arm. With on-car you just turn the turnbuckle.
4) If I buy one of these aftermarket LCAs, do I need to buy an LCA relocation bracket, or do they usually come with? My car is lowered via Strano springs...does that make a difference?
LCA relocation brackets are used to correct lower control arm slope and bring the lower mount back to the correct location. A side effect is increased dragstrip forward traction when used on the lower hole. Some will tell you about rear steer (which is a real thing) with excessive angle. If you're going to the strip you can put them on the lowest hole. If you're going road racing you can move them up a hole to correct the angle but not introduce any other issues. Sometimes we use rear steer on the lower holes for tuning effect.
5) UMI Roto Joint vs. Founders Poly/Swivel Joint vs. Poly bushings. Sounds like if I want to do any fast cornering, I should stay away from straight poly bushings because of binding issues. Are there any pros/cons for going UMI Roto vs Founders Swivel?
The UMI Roto-Joint is a premium product built by us. We use Dupont Delrin 150 as the liner and it dampens some vibration while allowing for awesome articulation. It's a cross between the comfort of poly and the performance of a rod end. Our Roto is tried and true.
Thanks in advance!
thanks
ramey
04-23-2014, 09:27 AM
#5
Shocks are what make or break a setup. If you have the funds for koni then I would get them. SFC I think are worth it. I had them on my Car when it was stock and the difference was incredible. As far as lca's go get the relocation brackets to help with wheel hop since you said the car will see some drag action. Also I had roto joints on my car when I first lowered it and I could never keep them tight. They would always pop loose at the lock but. I spoke with umi and sent them pictures and everything and between the two of us we couldn't figure it out so I went back to stock ones. For casual driving I don't see bind being much of a problem, but if you were hammering at the road course then yes I could see bind being an issue. Tires also make a difference too. 275's I think are wide enough for the street if you were serious about racing I would go wider, but with a good compound you should be OK on the street. I think I hit all your questions lol.
04-23-2014, 11:04 AM
#7
THe LCAs you definitely do NOT want straight poly. Either rubber, or a roto joint, rod end, etc... something that allows for twist. Rod ends tend to be harsh and noisy so you may not want to go that far.
I went with the Founders 3 piece poly joints and so far so good. Seems to be a happy medium. Less deflection than rubber but not as harsh as a rod end while still giving articulation.
I went with the Founders 3 piece poly joints and so far so good. Seems to be a happy medium. Less deflection than rubber but not as harsh as a rod end while still giving articulation.
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04-23-2014, 12:06 PM
#8
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Since you mentioned BMW.. I'm going to assume your ride quality preferences are on par with my personal preferences. If you're going for a BMW sport package type of ride, here's my 2 cents. I've owned both an LS1 Camaro and currently have an E90 328i sport package.
BMW's do well at absorbing the bumps. You feel them like a "thud". In the Camaro depending on what condition the car is in, you'll hear it like a bang/crash. Make sure all the bushings are in good shape or just replace them with solid rubber. Rubber will be the best at absorbing the impacts and not transmitting it into your car. Note.. it will never be exactly like the BMW.. but you can get closer to it. It's just a different type of car and suspension altogether.
For LCA's keep the stock U stamped arm but swap out the stock star shaped bushings with solid rubber moog bushings. These things are plenty good enough for street/performance level driving. And like mentioned above, will absorb the impacts much better. Hell, I raced on my star shaped bushings for 10 years.. not everyone had the same luck as I had, but the solid rubber bushings should be plenty.
My personal preference would be Koni SA's with the 3rd gen on car adjustable rear. This is what I've had and is plenty comfortable enough shock to handle the daily ride especially if you are looking for BMW sport package type dampening
Not sure about the subframe connectors.. maybe no subframes will be more like the BMW? I had them on my car since I bought it. Try it without the subframe connectors first.
I did not run LCA relo brackets for most of the time I owned my Camaro. Again not needed here. They are used to solve other issues.. but can create different issues too depending on what angle you mount the arms.
BMW's do well at absorbing the bumps. You feel them like a "thud". In the Camaro depending on what condition the car is in, you'll hear it like a bang/crash. Make sure all the bushings are in good shape or just replace them with solid rubber. Rubber will be the best at absorbing the impacts and not transmitting it into your car. Note.. it will never be exactly like the BMW.. but you can get closer to it. It's just a different type of car and suspension altogether.
For LCA's keep the stock U stamped arm but swap out the stock star shaped bushings with solid rubber moog bushings. These things are plenty good enough for street/performance level driving. And like mentioned above, will absorb the impacts much better. Hell, I raced on my star shaped bushings for 10 years.. not everyone had the same luck as I had, but the solid rubber bushings should be plenty.
My personal preference would be Koni SA's with the 3rd gen on car adjustable rear. This is what I've had and is plenty comfortable enough shock to handle the daily ride especially if you are looking for BMW sport package type dampening
Not sure about the subframe connectors.. maybe no subframes will be more like the BMW? I had them on my car since I bought it. Try it without the subframe connectors first.
I did not run LCA relo brackets for most of the time I owned my Camaro. Again not needed here. They are used to solve other issues.. but can create different issues too depending on what angle you mount the arms.
04-25-2014, 05:42 PM
#9
TECH Apprentice
Thread Starter
THe LCAs you definitely do NOT want straight poly. Either rubber, or a roto joint, rod end, etc... something that allows for twist. Rod ends tend to be harsh and noisy so you may not want to go that far.
I went with the Founders 3 piece poly joints and so far so good. Seems to be a happy medium. Less deflection than rubber but not as harsh as a rod end while still giving articulation.
I went with the Founders 3 piece poly joints and so far so good. Seems to be a happy medium. Less deflection than rubber but not as harsh as a rod end while still giving articulation.
