Raoul-Duke

iTrader: (6)

Whats up guys,

Just had a few questions in regards to the polyurethane bushing kit that Summit sells for our 4th gen f-bods. This is the one right here.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ENS-3-18130R/

So my Z28 has 73k on it, I have done the shocks and springs last fall and it is still not quite the ride quality I would like, better but not quite there. Would getting this kit make it feel better, and also with handling as well?

Also is this kit a good buy as far as the components that come with it or is it better that I just buy certain bushings separately. I dont want to buy the kit if it does not include certain bushings that make a difference and ones that are included that do not do much for me.

Last question is are there any specifications I must do when installing these as far as what to look out for with the suspension. Any pre-prep steps or post steps I must do?

Thank you for any input from past experience, It is greatly appreciated.

Raoul-Duke

iTrader: (6)

anyone?

JD_AMG

What do you want to change about the car?
And no, that bushing kit is just one big bind happy nightmare. It will make the car ride stiffer like it claims, but thats because those bushings will cause bind in needed suspension movement, effectively upping the wheel rate. In other words when the suspension is supposed to be moving these will cause it to bind instead and you will likely be left with broken parts (search, there is a thread with someone that added a poly kit and ended up with a broken front control arm because of the excessive bind).
If you want better handing add 35mm front, 22mm rear swaybars. And if thats still not enough get even better shocks.

Raoul-Duke

iTrader: (6)

Oh damn seriously? I wanted the car to just elimate some road noise over bumps etc and improved handling.

When I was installing my shocks I noticed my rear swaybar bushings were on their last leg so I figured it woudnt hurt to replace all of them? I had no idea replacing all of them could cause demage. So what is this bushing kit mainly for?

JD_AMG

If you are going to replace control arm bushings, replace them with OEM or 1LE rubber.

Swaybar bushings will be ok to replace with poly, just not control arms.
This kit is mainly for making easy money, just like ebay electric superchargers and tornado intakes.

Raoul-Duke

iTrader: (6)

Thats a bit harsh lol Well I am happy I consulted with you on here. but nonetheless I guess I won't be buying this. I think I am just going to get a sway bay kit from BMR or UMI.

Have you installed aftermarket sway bars? and how was the noticeable difference if so?

JD_AMG

Go with UMI or Stranoparts, both are 35mm front, 22mm rear. Strano's are hollow so you save some weight, and UMI are solid but a little cheaper.
Yes I have Strano bars (also his springs, Koni 4/3 shocks, Fays2 watts link, rotojoint rear LCA, full length adj. torque arm, 3pt SFCs, relocation brackets) and they certainly made a noticeable difference in handling. Car stays flatter, steering and turn in is sharper and the car is very neutral in turns. Very worth while mod if you want handling, but the Konis were still bar-none the biggest improvement and best mod Ive done.

LS1121

iTrader: (17)

I put the entire kit on myZ28 and I love it. It will tighten up the handleing quite a bit. Do Not buy the red bushings buy the black ones.Make sure you use a lot of grease so the don't BIND and squeak. It's a lot of work but well worth it.

LS1121

iTrader: (17)

Why do you guys always try to sell kids that don't know any better a bunch of stuff they don't need??

Carlos01SS

iTrader: (4)

dude why do you keep trying to insinuate that everyone here is trying to sell someone **** that they don't need even though we're not selling anything NOR do we get any money from any of the sponsors?
all you do is sit on your high horse and say that all our choices are bullshit and you buy american and all that crap and I'm sick of your self-righteous comments.

I BET your experience with these f-bodies are limited yet you keep trying to prove that we're all wrong and you buy uh-merkin products and frankly, I'd be SHOCKED if you ever did any spirited driving in your vehicle INCLUDING hitting the twisties, autocross AND really, you're annoying.

go away, PLEASE!

it's a FACT that replacing rubber bushings in suspension areas REQUIRING constant movement make 4th-gen f-bodies suspension MUCH more stiff than is necessary AND that they in fact have caused breakage AND that they do not allow the suspension to work as free as rubber bushings to provide quick left-right response and driver feedback with less bone-jarring effects.

but nooooooooooooo your car is PERFECT with your monroe sensatracks and poly bushings, exactly the OPPOSITE of what is the "ideal" setup for a premiere handling f-body.

all you know is what you have bought and will CONVINCE the whole planet that you're right and everyone else is STUPID to spend their money on a car that's only worth about $4-$5K, is that about right?

My GAWD man, go get a girlfriend, do something!

Or how's about this; go find someone in your area who has their suspension with everything that we know works well with a 4th-gen f-body, and take a ride in their car.

Actually I don't see you ever doing that because if you do then you'll be proven WRONG, and that cannot happen right?
Because you're always right and we're all wrong, we're all the lemmings who blindly follow Sam Strano or UMI performance or BMR and listen to a guy who has won 7 NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS in a 4th-gen f-body for Autocross AND who at the time daily drove his car and has a shitload of f-body owners who swear that their cars have been transformed into something they never even imagined possible.

Question:
What have you ACCOMPLISHED with your f-body?
What have your results been with your f-body?
have you won any championships?
Have you spent YEARS with road-racing and designing and testing numerous products, only to figure out that your ideas are better AND designed the stuff AND raced in your own stuff that you designed AND has won anything?

No?

I didn't think so.

I'm totally okay with you voicing your opinion but when you start talking **** about others who KNOW that what you have is truly NOT conducive to a great handling(read corner-carving) f-body then I take offense.

everyone has their own opinion granted, I'm okay with that, keep your bashing to yourself.

end of rant.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

JD_AMG is 100% correct.

To add to his points, the only difference between red and black polyurethane is the color. Polyurethane is offered in a lot of colors red, black, blue, yellow, purple, etc. Some Energy Suspension polyurethane is available as "graphite impregnated", and Energy Suspension chose to color that product black, but the color itself is irrelevant. They could "graphite impregnate" any color poly bushing.

The graphite wears off just like greasing the hell out of them. The graphite in these bushings, like grease, only assists in relieving some of the rotational resistance that polyurethane introduces. All the greasing in the world doesn't help when the bushing must operate on an axis other than rotation to allow for proper functioning. The stiffness, and "low deflection", that is touted as such a wonderful feature is a detriment when the bushing must deform.

With the exception of the upper control arm, all of the other locations on a 4th gen F-body, experience or require multiple axis motion or twisting.

Some vendors have chosen to offer bearing based bushings in select, or all, locations in their products to accommodate the required additional motion. Founders is now producing a poly ball bushing. Whatever the case may be, I consider this an admission "that poly has some serious drawbacks", without openly admitting it. Global West is the only company, that I know of, that has outright acknowledged in print that Poly binds up the suspension.

Before any one mentions del-a-lum or nylon as a bushing material, those products (in this application: f-bodies) are essentially worse than poly as they are solid bushings with zero deflection. Great product if you know you only require rotation, but they don't allow any other axis motion at all. It really comes down to understanding how a particular suspension component works.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

Are you looking for a firm ride with good handling, a comfortable ride with ok handling, or something else? I see bilstein shocks, BMR springs, and aftermarket LCA's. What bushings do the LCA's have in them? What are the sizes and type of tires you're running?

JD_AMG

lol... +1 to Carlos01SS and lees02WS6.
Heres more reading for you OP:
http://hewsoninc.ca/mythinformation....y_testimonials
http://www.crystalridge.net/cars/bushings.htm#Poly

01ssreda4

iTrader: (96)

I'd buy new rubber bushings to replace stockers that were worn out, then buy good springs/shocks and sway bars if I cared about handling. I wouldn't put poly everywhere that was available. That **** sounds like a ******* nightmare.

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

I'll see your post and raise you Porsche Based Elephant racing, and a Global West:

http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/binding.htm

Axis of rotation

Through deformation, rubber bushings allow a large range of angular motion along a primary axis of rotation. Some bushings pivot only along the primary axis, others along two or more axis through compression.

Unfortunately polyurethane bushing replacements sometimes find their way into bushings that require multiple axis of rotation. Nearly incompressible, polyurethane binds along any secondary axis.

Polyurethane is an inappropriate choice for such applications. Correct performance replacements for rubber bushings would incorporate spherical bearings ( for 911, 914, and 944) to provide incompressibility and freedom of motion on multiple axis simultaneously.



Axis of rotation out of alignment with mounts

Similarly, the primary axis of rotation of a suspension member may be poorly aligned with its bushings, due to accident damage or poor design/fabrication. This typically happens when the axis passes through two bushings that are not collinear. Alternately the bushing position may be changeable by alignment adjusters. If the axis can not be similar adjusted, binding will result. Properly designed bushing mounts will ensure proper alignment.



http://www.globalwest.net/tbc-3.html


"Polyurethane bushings used on both ends of the control arm. This type of a control arm is best used for drag racing. The bushings however, limit the rear end from articulating. Many drag cars can get away with this because of the way the car is set up. If this type of arm is used on the street or road race applications the rear suspension will be placed in bind when the car goes over bumps and around corners. This is because the control arm bushings will not allow the rear end to have proper movement.

Consequences: High speed oversteer, possible over stressing the suspension mount, reduces tire loading during cornering and ride change.

Important: If you use polyurethane control arms with a Traclink, the rear end will not hook up. We do not recommend using a Panhard rod with double poly rear control arms because additional bind can occur when the Panhard rod moves through its arc. "

LS1121

iTrader: (17)

I did a ton of my Spirited Driving back in 1976 probably before you were born. All of these aftermarket parts you guys brag about cost a ton of money and I would guess maybe 95% of US Camaro Firebird drivers don't need period. I just replaced my front struts and took the poly bushings out and re-greased them and back togother working Great, Had to be the cheapest Best upgrade i've done to the suspension of my car. If you do not like what I say...Ignore it..... so why don't YOU GO AWAY!

The OP asked about the bushings sold by Summit which is a Sponsor here and who I purchase a lot of things from. I Support many Sponsors here. However many of you seem to think that your opinions are the only ones that count. So if I go against the Flow and you don't like it..then thatis your problem. I know many people that have used Poly and Love them. Yes there is a difference between the red and the black. I guess maybe when the day comes that LS1Tech becomes a Dictatorship Iwill go away but until that day comes

lees02WS6

iTrader: (5)

Having an opinion is fine, but you offered this up as a fact:

The available data doesn't support your conclusions. The evidence from GM Engineer Herb Adams, on down to the links provided convey evidence that poly bushing affect control arms functions negatively.

I can speak to it personally, I've used all the available bushing types, except del-a-lum, and poly binds period. It is especially noticeable in trailing arm applications.

If you want to say you like them, ok, but greasing them doesn't remove binding. Assigning attributes by color doesn't mean anything. You can buy black polyurethane bushings that don't have graphite in them.

JD_AMG

Compared to what?
For the quality and results these parts give they are well worth the money. These are PERFORMANCE cars, so naturally most of us want PERFORMANCE parts.
Do 95% of the "US Camaro Firebird drivers" need a 350hp V8? Why not save some money and buy a V6 Fbody? Why not go a step further and buy a Caviler for half the cost, its still a Chevy car, so whats the difference right?

Did you "need" any of the mods in your sig? What was wrong with the stock stuff?
Many of us are not satisfied with the stock parts and want more PERFORMANCE, so we buy performance parts.
The problem is you are spewing FALSE information (like your little "shock vs strut" rant you did in another thread).

Jorgens

Interesting, I'm looking at doing some upgrades as well....

Great questions

z28bryan

iTrader: (7)

If anything poly is going to increase road noise. The stock rubber will give you the most forgiving ride quality. If the stock bushings have worn and rotted out, you should replace them with new rubber ones. I know a lot of autox/road race guys recommend this.. what does that tell you?

I agree that poly bushings and new endlinks can only help on the swaybar though.

Handling isn't going to improve that much if you change bushings only. If your bushings are worn or they are 100%.. if you have the stock shocks then you still have almost no damping or roll control