The "UPPER" Panhard brace....Is it really needed?
09-21-2004, 09:57 PM
#2
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there are people that say it does noting. But I like it, as other than that the lower bar mounts to sheet metal. I mean it is strong but i would rather have the bars anyday, I even have the upper PHR!
09-21-2004, 10:05 PM
#3
It has to be there for a reason, at least I think. I believe it provides support for the PHR mount to the chassis. If you remove it I'm sure it will be fine, but dont go racing aroud corners anytime soon, or find another way to beefen up the PHR mounting bracket.
09-21-2004, 11:51 PM
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Originally Posted by trackbird
I bent one on my 3rd gen. Not sure how. But, if it did nothing, why did it bend? (I kinked it where it clears the exhaust, the bend was bad enough that it hit the lower PHB (the "PHB") and started to bend it. I'd leave it there.
The BMR upper PHR will give you room for duals so 3" is no problem!
09-22-2004, 01:00 AM
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Alot of folks have removed it, it doesn't seem like they are experienceing a rash of PHB mount failures. If you are pretty much play in a straight line, remove it and keep a eye on it. Check it out pretty often for any cracks that could lead to complete failure.
I'm pretty sure that one might be able to do some more boxing or maybe whittle up a small brace on the other side {don't really know if that's possible as I don't remember exactly what it like under there}.
Realise that removing it "could" cause a big problem though so please take that into consideration. I play too much in the curves to even think about removing it. Heck, I've actually thought about trying to make it stronger. Like the other feller said, check out the BMR brace if you are trying to make room for dual exhaust. If not,,, remove it and keep a eye on it.
I'm pretty sure that one might be able to do some more boxing or maybe whittle up a small brace on the other side {don't really know if that's possible as I don't remember exactly what it like under there}.
Realise that removing it "could" cause a big problem though so please take that into consideration. I play too much in the curves to even think about removing it. Heck, I've actually thought about trying to make it stronger. Like the other feller said, check out the BMR brace if you are trying to make room for dual exhaust. If not,,, remove it and keep a eye on it.
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09-22-2004, 07:44 AM
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Might be you could gusset the panhard mount for
rigidity some other way, without taking up the
whole space. But I wouldn't trust the stamped
& spot-welded mount boss without some form of
bracing.
rigidity some other way, without taking up the
whole space. But I wouldn't trust the stamped
& spot-welded mount boss without some form of
bracing.
09-22-2004, 09:02 AM
#10
I didn't want to get rid of it...GM put it on there for a reason. They would have saved a lot of money by not putting that piece on the thousands and thousands of F-bods out there. I just went with the BMR relocation piece...it gives a lot more room back there as well.
09-22-2004, 02:05 PM
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I've said this before and I'll say it again - it ABSOLUTELY does something. The brace/upper PHR is a support piece for the PHR mounting bracket. Without the support brace you not only create a longer moment arm in the attach bracket, but you also remove much of its support structure. The resulting risk would be tearing the sheet metal to which the bracket is attached under side loading. A condition that could certainly ruin your whole afternoon.
Regardless of whether its been done by others, I just don't see exhaust clearance being enough of an issue to risk it. Perhaps if all you do is drag race the car it'll hold up, but no way does the potential gain compare to the potential risk IMO.
Regardless of whether its been done by others, I just don't see exhaust clearance being enough of an issue to risk it. Perhaps if all you do is drag race the car it'll hold up, but no way does the potential gain compare to the potential risk IMO.
09-22-2004, 03:46 PM
#12
Originally Posted by Fulton 1
I've said this before and I'll say it again - it ABSOLUTELY does something. The brace/upper PHR is a support piece for the PHR mounting bracket. Without the support brace you not only create a longer moment arm in the attach bracket, but you also remove much of its support structure. The resulting risk would be tearing the sheet metal to which the bracket is attached under side loading. A condition that could certainly ruin your whole afternoon.
Regardless of whether its been done by others, I just don't see exhaust clearance being enough of an issue to risk it. Perhaps if all you do is drag race the car it'll hold up, but no way does the potential gain compare to the potential risk IMO.
Regardless of whether its been done by others, I just don't see exhaust clearance being enough of an issue to risk it. Perhaps if all you do is drag race the car it'll hold up, but no way does the potential gain compare to the potential risk IMO.
My thoughts exactly. I'm just gettin too lazy to type them out each time.
09-22-2004, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by trackbird
My thoughts exactly. I'm just gettin too lazy to type them out each time.
09-23-2004, 01:38 AM
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Come on fellers, this is alot like "Will a 315 fit on a 9 inch rim?" Yea it will fit. Won't really work all that great for sure. BUT, there will be someone that comes in and rants that it's unsafe as all get out,,, "The bead will pop off due to the added sidewall stress, then the car will veer into on-coming traffic and kill someone"!!!!
How bout, {Are ET Streets safe on the street?}. Are they as safe as the original 275/45/17s????? Most likely not,,,,, but people do it and you don't hear about it causing a rash of accidents.
What about removing the front swaybar?? Heck, that will definitely car severe safety problems,,,,, yea , yea , yea,,, you know,,,, "You will need to make a hard "accident avoidence maneuver" and the car will flip!",,,, you know what I'm talking about.
Going by his mods, I'll assume that he really isn't into anything but drag racing. Any of the before menteined examples belong in the drag race mod list. Every one of them could conceivably make the car less safe in a certain situation. We all agree on that. But where does the "It's unsafe,,, don't do it for any reason,,, It WILL cause accidents,,, It COULD cause an accident,,, If we could possibly prevent one accident" type of reply end. Admit it,,, it could be taken a long ways out there.
Examples- I have 315 all the way around on my car. The wider tires and wheels WILL put addition stress on my bearing and spindle mounting points. That COULD result in a catstophic failure.
They also hunt the roads imperfections worse that a set of 255/55/16s, that COULD result in a the tires following a shallow rut in the road and cause me to veer into oncoming traffic.
They will also hydro plane worse than the before menteined 255/55/16s and once again, possibly result in a accident that would not have been if I were running the narrower tires.
On the other hand,, the wider tires, stiffer springs, shocks and swaybars could prevent an accident in the right circumstances.
Not trying to be flippent about safety at all. I'm also not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to see both sides of two different areas of a hobby.
If he does remove it,,, just keep an eye on the attachment point for any signs of fatigue or failure. More than likely,,, if the welds do fail,,, they will not do it all at one time. I know,,, some will will reply,,,,, what if they do? Well that's something that I would be willing to chance. Why,,, because I'm one of those people who absolutely hate to here the words "If we could save one life,,,,,, then banning guns {place what ever you don't like in place of "guns"} would be worth it,,, wouldn't it?
I wouldn't personally do it but I might try it if I were more into dragracing. I would try it, watch it and then determine I wanted to leave it that way. But hey,,,, whatever floats folks boats, what ever sets their sails,,, yada, yada,,, yada and all that jazz.
I'll duck now.
How bout, {Are ET Streets safe on the street?}. Are they as safe as the original 275/45/17s????? Most likely not,,,,, but people do it and you don't hear about it causing a rash of accidents.
What about removing the front swaybar?? Heck, that will definitely car severe safety problems,,,,, yea , yea , yea,,, you know,,,, "You will need to make a hard "accident avoidence maneuver" and the car will flip!",,,, you know what I'm talking about.
Going by his mods, I'll assume that he really isn't into anything but drag racing. Any of the before menteined examples belong in the drag race mod list. Every one of them could conceivably make the car less safe in a certain situation. We all agree on that. But where does the "It's unsafe,,, don't do it for any reason,,, It WILL cause accidents,,, It COULD cause an accident,,, If we could possibly prevent one accident" type of reply end. Admit it,,, it could be taken a long ways out there.
Examples- I have 315 all the way around on my car. The wider tires and wheels WILL put addition stress on my bearing and spindle mounting points. That COULD result in a catstophic failure.
They also hunt the roads imperfections worse that a set of 255/55/16s, that COULD result in a the tires following a shallow rut in the road and cause me to veer into oncoming traffic.
They will also hydro plane worse than the before menteined 255/55/16s and once again, possibly result in a accident that would not have been if I were running the narrower tires.
On the other hand,, the wider tires, stiffer springs, shocks and swaybars could prevent an accident in the right circumstances.
Not trying to be flippent about safety at all. I'm also not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to see both sides of two different areas of a hobby.
If he does remove it,,, just keep an eye on the attachment point for any signs of fatigue or failure. More than likely,,, if the welds do fail,,, they will not do it all at one time. I know,,, some will will reply,,,,, what if they do? Well that's something that I would be willing to chance. Why,,, because I'm one of those people who absolutely hate to here the words "If we could save one life,,,,,, then banning guns {place what ever you don't like in place of "guns"} would be worth it,,, wouldn't it?
I wouldn't personally do it but I might try it if I were more into dragracing. I would try it, watch it and then determine I wanted to leave it that way. But hey,,,, whatever floats folks boats, what ever sets their sails,,, yada, yada,,, yada and all that jazz.
I'll duck now.
09-23-2004, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Judd
Come on fellers, this is alot like "Will a 315 fit on a 9 inch rim?" Yea it will fit. Won't really work all that great for sure. BUT, there will be someone that comes in and rants that it's unsafe as all get out,,, "The bead will pop off due to the added sidewall stress, then the car will veer into on-coming traffic and kill someone"!!!!
How bout, {Are ET Streets safe on the street?}. Are they as safe as the original 275/45/17s????? Most likely not,,,,, but people do it and you don't hear about it causing a rash of accidents.
What about removing the front swaybar?? Heck, that will definitely car severe safety problems,,,,, yea , yea , yea,,, you know,,,, "You will need to make a hard "accident avoidence maneuver" and the car will flip!",,,, you know what I'm talking about.
Going by his mods, I'll assume that he really isn't into anything but drag racing. Any of the before menteined examples belong in the drag race mod list. Every one of them could conceivably make the car less safe in a certain situation. We all agree on that. But where does the "It's unsafe,,, don't do it for any reason,,, It WILL cause accidents,,, It COULD cause an accident,,, If we could possibly prevent one accident" type of reply end. Admit it,,, it could be taken a long ways out there.
Examples- I have 315 all the way around on my car. The wider tires and wheels WILL put addition stress on my bearing and spindle mounting points. That COULD result in a catstophic failure.
They also hunt the roads imperfections worse that a set of 255/55/16s, that COULD result in a the tires following a shallow rut in the road and cause me to veer into oncoming traffic.
They will also hydro plane worse than the before menteined 255/55/16s and once again, possibly result in a accident that would not have been if I were running the narrower tires.
On the other hand,, the wider tires, stiffer springs, shocks and swaybars could prevent an accident in the right circumstances.
Not trying to be flippent about safety at all. I'm also not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to see both sides of two different areas of a hobby.
If he does remove it,,, just keep an eye on the attachment point for any signs of fatigue or failure. More than likely,,, if the welds do fail,,, they will not do it all at one time. I know,,, some will will reply,,,,, what if they do? Well that's something that I would be willing to chance. Why,,, because I'm one of those people who absolutely hate to here the words "If we could save one life,,,,,, then banning guns {place what ever you don't like in place of "guns"} would be worth it,,, wouldn't it?
I wouldn't personally do it but I might try it if I were more into dragracing. I would try it, watch it and then determine I wanted to leave it that way. But hey,,,, whatever floats folks boats, what ever sets their sails,,, yada, yada,,, yada and all that jazz.
I'll duck now.
How bout, {Are ET Streets safe on the street?}. Are they as safe as the original 275/45/17s????? Most likely not,,,,, but people do it and you don't hear about it causing a rash of accidents.
What about removing the front swaybar?? Heck, that will definitely car severe safety problems,,,,, yea , yea , yea,,, you know,,,, "You will need to make a hard "accident avoidence maneuver" and the car will flip!",,,, you know what I'm talking about.
Going by his mods, I'll assume that he really isn't into anything but drag racing. Any of the before menteined examples belong in the drag race mod list. Every one of them could conceivably make the car less safe in a certain situation. We all agree on that. But where does the "It's unsafe,,, don't do it for any reason,,, It WILL cause accidents,,, It COULD cause an accident,,, If we could possibly prevent one accident" type of reply end. Admit it,,, it could be taken a long ways out there.
Examples- I have 315 all the way around on my car. The wider tires and wheels WILL put addition stress on my bearing and spindle mounting points. That COULD result in a catstophic failure.
They also hunt the roads imperfections worse that a set of 255/55/16s, that COULD result in a the tires following a shallow rut in the road and cause me to veer into oncoming traffic.
They will also hydro plane worse than the before menteined 255/55/16s and once again, possibly result in a accident that would not have been if I were running the narrower tires.
On the other hand,, the wider tires, stiffer springs, shocks and swaybars could prevent an accident in the right circumstances.
Not trying to be flippent about safety at all. I'm also not trying to be argumentative. Just trying to see both sides of two different areas of a hobby.
If he does remove it,,, just keep an eye on the attachment point for any signs of fatigue or failure. More than likely,,, if the welds do fail,,, they will not do it all at one time. I know,,, some will will reply,,,,, what if they do? Well that's something that I would be willing to chance. Why,,, because I'm one of those people who absolutely hate to here the words "If we could save one life,,,,,, then banning guns {place what ever you don't like in place of "guns"} would be worth it,,, wouldn't it?
I wouldn't personally do it but I might try it if I were more into dragracing. I would try it, watch it and then determine I wanted to leave it that way. But hey,,,, whatever floats folks boats, what ever sets their sails,,, yada, yada,,, yada and all that jazz.
I'll duck now.
The question asked was effectively "what is it there for?", which is a legitimate question IMO. Maybe I'm **** or overly conservative or whatever, but I'm trained to look at worst case scenarios (occupational hazard) so I take these sorts of things seriously. How would you feel knowing that your recommendation or your lack of comment directly resulted in someone's injury or worse? If I don't know I tend to keep my mouth shut, but in this case I chimed in because, with the exception of trackbird, nobody really touched on the root of the question (i.e. what does it do).
If a person wants to remove parts of the car or install tires on wheels not intended for their use at least do it with an understanding of the risks involved - both to you and to others on the road. Don't get me wrong, I know there are many improvements possible to the factory designs. I'm not one of the folks that is going to blindly accept whatever GM designed simply because it was engineered that way. I think we all understand the compromises made at the factory.
As I stated in my post, just because other people did it doesn't make it okay or safe or without potential problems. Could you get away with it? Most likely - at least for a while. Just remember that you have a 3500+ lb car relying on this structure to keep the rear axle attached to the car - you be the judge of those implications. Just do it knowing the whole story and remember that oftentimes its no more expensive or troublesome (in the long run) to do things right the first time.
Off my soapbox now...
09-24-2004, 01:33 AM
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Cool beans Fulton1,,, I thought I was really going to "catch it". I can easily see your side of the coin. Thanks for the thoughts and a good debate on two differing views.
