Go Back   LS1TECH > CHASSIS, SUSPENSION, APPEARANCE > Suspension & Brakes
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?
Search

Suspension & Brakes
Springs | Shocks | Handling | Rotors
Sponsored by
Weld Racing

Effects of wrong pinion angle?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 10-22-2006, 10:55 AM   #1
12 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,642
Default Effects of wrong pinion angle?

So i took my car to the track and I'm experiencing serious problems. I have all the mods listed below and i ran slower than same model cars with 3 boltons.

I talked to a guy at the track with the same car as me. He had no bolt ons only suspension mods, 3.73, and slicks on 17icnh rims and he was running 12.7s. He asked me if my car was lowered and I said yes. He said that was my problem. He lost et when he lowered his until he got the adj. ta and set the pinion angle.

I have an adjustable torque arm but i never set the pinion angle. I have removed the driveshaft twice. Once to install the tq arm and once to remove the tranny.

My question is can my angle be so off that i lose massive et. I was running street tires at the track and i had massive wheel spin off the line. The car doesnt seem to grip well. Also when driving on highways the rear feels real loose on large turns. Can my pinion angle be so off that I get no traction off the line and lose about a second on my et? Also what are the effects of havin a large positive angle vs. a large negative angle?
__________________
94 Z28: Forged 385 LT1 | Plenty Bolt Ons | Heads & Cam | 4L60E Built and Stalled | Suspended | M/T Drag Radials | Moser 12 Bolt w/3.91s Aiming for the 11 second club
C_Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 12:03 PM   #2
10 Second Club
 
DrkPhx's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 15
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: St. Michael, MN.
Posts: 4,513
Default

Pinion angle will always be a hotly debated topic. But I don't think that is your problem. You need LCA relocation brackets. When I lowered my car I had the same problem, added relocation brackets and had my traction back. I used BMR bolt-on brackets and installed them on the lower hole. Running a real street radial at the track is useless, you need to switch to DR's at the track. What was your 60-ft?
__________________
06 Trailblazer AWD SS ---------13 Camaro ZL1 M6---
---- ---13.78/98.99-----------------535/513 rwhp/tq bone stock
DrkPhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 12:37 PM   #3
12 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,642
Default

i already have LCAs w/ relocation brackets. they are on the lowest setting for maximum grip. i was cutting 2.1 60 ft times whihc is horrible. i really think my pinion angle is way off so that all the energy is pushing forcing the differential up instead of down to put the power towards the ground.
__________________
94 Z28: Forged 385 LT1 | Plenty Bolt Ons | Heads & Cam | 4L60E Built and Stalled | Suspended | M/T Drag Radials | Moser 12 Bolt w/3.91s Aiming for the 11 second club
C_Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 12:47 PM   #4
10 Second Club
 
DrkPhx's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 15
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: St. Michael, MN.
Posts: 4,513
Default

Have you tried a stickier tire?
DrkPhx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 01:02 PM   #5
TECH Veteran
 
Old Geezer's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 1
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 4,480
Send a message via AIM to Old Geezer
Default Sorry, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by C_Rules
i already have LCAs w/ relocation brackets. they are on the lowest setting for maximum grip. i was cutting 2.1 60 ft times whihc is horrible. i really think my pinion angle is way off so that all the energy is pushing forcing the differential up instead of down to put the power towards the ground.
That's just not the case. Excessive angle will do 3 things:
1. Cause driveline vibration.
2. Break u-joints if angle is really excessive.
3. Could cause a slight lose in RW power, as the power required to work the joint[s] is higher than it would be w/ a correct angle.
The angle does not change the direction the "force" is going.
Pinion angle is not considered a tuning tool.

Suggest you set the angle to approx 3* down, and try some runs. Use a real tire when you do this, as a street tire is not consistent enough to make good comparisons with.

Now that the car is lowered, I'd suggest checking torque arm clearance w/ the tunnel, and making sure the rearend is centered.
__________________
Chuck
Hot rodding and drag racing since 55
Injector inspector
55 Chevy/LQ9 Tyr Fryer
Turbo Buick in the 9's/142mph.
Old Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 01:17 PM   #6
12 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,642
Default

okay i'll check those things out. all i know is something is seriously wrong. i'm supposed to be running in or very near to the 12s with all these mods and im doing 13.77 @ best. something is definitely wrong. i was running that before i installed the tranny and converter.
__________________
94 Z28: Forged 385 LT1 | Plenty Bolt Ons | Heads & Cam | 4L60E Built and Stalled | Suspended | M/T Drag Radials | Moser 12 Bolt w/3.91s Aiming for the 11 second club
C_Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 03:58 PM   #7
12 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,642
Default

how much et can a stickier tire make up for? i know im about a full second off.
__________________
94 Z28: Forged 385 LT1 | Plenty Bolt Ons | Heads & Cam | 4L60E Built and Stalled | Suspended | M/T Drag Radials | Moser 12 Bolt w/3.91s Aiming for the 11 second club
C_Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 05:40 PM   #8
11 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 4
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: 913/949
Posts: 896
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C_Rules
how much et can a stickier tire make up for? i know im about a full second off.

A sticky tire can make a world of difference. Gator's 99ta on here is SLAMMED and he pulls 1.5s if not 1.4 60's by now. He also swears by the MT Drag radials.
KCFormula is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2006, 08:21 PM   #9
12 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,642
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KCFormula
A sticky tire can make a world of difference. Gator's 99ta on here is SLAMMED and he pulls 1.5s if not 1.4 60's by now. He also swears by the MT Drag radials.

i wonder how quick gator's car was before he put on the radials. because im out some drastic et.
__________________
94 Z28: Forged 385 LT1 | Plenty Bolt Ons | Heads & Cam | 4L60E Built and Stalled | Suspended | M/T Drag Radials | Moser 12 Bolt w/3.91s Aiming for the 11 second club
C_Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2006, 08:46 PM   #10
TECH Resident
 
JR HAWK 9's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lake Delton, WI
Posts: 811
Default

your pinion angle should be roughly the same angle as your tranny output shaft to keep the angles that your u joints deflect equal and opposite. For instance, if your tranny/crank shaft points up (moving towards the front of the car), then your pinion angle should also be pointing up at around the same angle.
JR HAWK 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2006, 06:15 AM   #11
12 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,642
Default

now after i set the angle to the correct degree will there be a noticeable difference? I have all the suspension mods yet I get no traction. I know thats due to not running a radial, but when i adjust the angle will the grip be better or will I spin the tires even worse?
__________________
94 Z28: Forged 385 LT1 | Plenty Bolt Ons | Heads & Cam | 4L60E Built and Stalled | Suspended | M/T Drag Radials | Moser 12 Bolt w/3.91s Aiming for the 11 second club
C_Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2006, 08:40 AM   #12
TECH Resident
 
JR HAWK 9's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lake Delton, WI
Posts: 811
Default

I don't think your traction problem is pinion angle related. The main effects of a mal-adjusted pinion angle would be drivetrain vibration issues.
JR HAWK 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2006, 09:08 AM   #13
TECH Veteran
 
Old Geezer's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 1
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 4,480
Send a message via AIM to Old Geezer
Default Making comparos..

like this is of very doubious value. [Kinda like using RWHP to select parts, make comparisons w/ other cars.]
"I talked to a guy at the track with the same car as me. He had no bolt ons only suspension mods, 3.73, and slicks on 17icnh rims and he was running 12.7s."
1. His car is not the same as yours.
2.You have changed converter, and have a gear set that's not conducive to producing good et's.
3. Your tires are no way close to the other cars setup.
My suggestions:
Concentrate on what you need to do w/ your car.
A. Set the pinion angle to approx 3*.
B. Get a set of tires.
C. Do some testing.
D. Look at a datalog, and see where the new converter is taking you. Also, look at the tune you have.
E. Video the car, leaving. Pay attention to tires and how the chassis is reacting.

Back under my rock.....
__________________
Chuck
Hot rodding and drag racing since 55
Injector inspector
55 Chevy/LQ9 Tyr Fryer
Turbo Buick in the 9's/142mph.
Old Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2006, 09:26 AM   #14
Moderator
 
jimmyblue's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 11
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: East Central Florida
Posts: 12,318
Default

People seem to not distinguish between pinion angle, driveline
angle and torque arm angle. All three come together at the
pinion but that's all. They have different meanings and effects.

Driveline angle is about the vibration aspects, minimizing it and
in fact nulling it at max load is the way for your U-joints and
trans / diff seals & bearings / bushings to survive, and have a
minimum vibration. Driveline angle is the sum of trans-shaft
and shaft-pinion angles (one negative and one positive, you
want zero but under load / deflection so wisdom is -1 for hard
rubbers and -2 for stuck rubbers as measured unloaded).

Torque arm angle, relative to body, intersecting with the LCA
angle is what points to the instant center of the car. Instant
center defines the suspension reaction and weight transfer.
Changing it for higher and further back, transfers more weight
to the rear wheels under acceleration. But lowering changes
the LCA angle to push it down and forward. Relocating the
lower LCA mount point, lower by the same as you dropped
the car, would put you back to about stock in this regard. But
you also lowered the absolute center of mass and this you don't
get back. Changing the torque arm angle also manipulates the
fore/aft instant center position. Dropping the nose point brings
the instant center back toward the rear. But you don't want to
jack the driveline angle doing this so you need the adjustable's
degree of freedom perhaps. The nose point is fixed with the stock
mount, can be adjusted or is adjusted for you in the relocating
trans crossmembers from BMR, UMI, Yank. In my opinion these
are the "right" way to set bite with a long arm, you also have
the short-arm TAs that mount to the floor pan separately. The
shorter the arm, the more extreme the torque reaction (good for
launch, but watch the brake hop).

Tires are the #1 traction deal. Until you have good ones you
don't know what suspension work you need (though some things
are pretty universal, like relocation brackets for lowered cars).
There's no use trying to tune suspension around a greasy donut.

Now, great tires on a suspension that wheel-hops is a good way
to break driveline pieces. So once you find that, don't stay in it.
But if your suspension is quiet and the tires just smear, tires are
the (first) problem.
__________________


2002 SS convertible

SLP Blackwing lid, 85mm MAF, 85mm Professional Products intake & TB, SLP CME, JBAs/Mufflex tubes . SLP Y, McCord cutout, Fuddle 3500/2.0, GM truck pan, '98 flexplate, 3.42s, T-2R, MAC cover, welded tubes, Hotchkiss PHR, springs; BMR bolt-in LCA brackets, K-member; UMI TA, boxed stock 1LE LCAs, SLP Bilstein / Gabriel air shocks (F/R); Strano 35/22 sway bars, 224/224 116 cam, LT1 rad, HPTuners 12.6@112MPH
jimmyblue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-24-2006, 09:28 AM   #15
TECH Resident
 
JR HAWK 9's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Lake Delton, WI
Posts: 811
Default

I don't thnk one should state a certain pinion angle, as that will be relative to the surface in which the car is parked. I know when my car is in the garage, my crank/tranny angle is approximately 4.5* (pointing up as looking to the front of the car). I have my pinion angle set at approximately the same angle (also pointing up) as required for no vibration issues for an overall driveline angle of around 0*. I set my pinion angles relative to my tranny/crank.....
JR HAWK 9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 02:24 PM   #16
12 Second Club
 
Trader Rating: 7
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,642
Default

so i had my pinion angle set to about -1. its a little hard to get a perfect angle with a non digital angle finder since one degree is so small. well after adjusting it i can say there is a noticeable difference. the back of the car feels more planted to the floor under acceleration. before the adjustment the car was at around +1. just figured id give u guys an update.
__________________
94 Z28: Forged 385 LT1 | Plenty Bolt Ons | Heads & Cam | 4L60E Built and Stalled | Suspended | M/T Drag Radials | Moser 12 Bolt w/3.91s Aiming for the 11 second club
C_Rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 03:59 PM   #17
TECH Veteran
 
dhdenney's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 53
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Monticello, Kentucky
Posts: 4,437
Send a message via AIM to dhdenney Send a message via MSN to dhdenney
Default

Maybe my .02 isn't worth much here but it looks like some mods that might help on those ET's is some 3.73's and turn those KYB's down to the softest setting. The lowering springs are stiff and could be holding you back as far as weight transfer to the rear wheels. If you can knock a .5 second off your 60', you might lose a full second at the end. Other power robbers could be your exhaust. A chambered muffler and shorty headers can pose restrictions.
__________________
*2012 Audi A3 TDI, Premium Plus, DSG, Ibis white
*1994 Pontiac Firebird Formula, Gt47-80 turbo, 580 rwhp/700 rwtq
*2004 Jeep Liberty Sport 4X4
dhdenney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2006, 08:41 PM   #18
TECH Regular
 
SILVERZZ28's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: South,Alabama
Posts: 424
Send a message via AIM to SILVERZZ28
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR HAWK 9
I don't thnk one should state a certain pinion angle, as that will be relative to the surface in which the car is parked. I know when my car is in the garage, my crank/tranny angle is approximately 4.5* (pointing up as looking to the front of the car). I have my pinion angle set at approximately the same angle (also pointing up) as required for no vibration issues for an overall driveline angle of around 0*. I set my pinion angles relative to my tranny/crank.....
So are you saying you have your rear yoke 4.5* postive? I'm having a blonde momment never heard of setting it like this.
__________________
1999 Ford Lightning. 684 rwhp & 925rwtq.10.40@129
1995 Z28 520 rwhp 490 tq N/A through a 12 bolt. 408 Iron block swap with 4L80e
N/A..10.55@134
Nitrous..9.67@129 letting out.
3938lb car with driver.

Last edited by SILVERZZ28; 11-13-2006 at 01:35 PM..
SILVERZZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2006, 06:23 AM   #19
TECH Veteran
 
Old Geezer's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 1
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: GA, USA
Posts: 4,480
Send a message via AIM to Old Geezer
Exclamation Pinion angle is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JR HAWK 9
I don't thnk one should state a certain pinion angle, as that will be relative to the surface in which the car is parked. I know when my car is in the garage, my crank/tranny angle is approximately 4.5* (pointing up as looking to the front of the car). I have my pinion angle set at approximately the same angle (also pointing up) as required for no vibration issues for an overall driveline angle of around 0*. I set my pinion angles relative to my tranny/crank.....
Not measured as a reference to the floor. It is measured as the difference in the driveshaft C/L, and the C/L of the pinion gear.
__________________
Chuck
Hot rodding and drag racing since 55
Injector inspector
55 Chevy/LQ9 Tyr Fryer
Turbo Buick in the 9's/142mph.
Old Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 10:36 PM   #20
TECH Regular
 
SILVERZZ28's Avatar
 
Trader Rating: 3
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: South,Alabama
Posts: 424
Send a message via AIM to SILVERZZ28
Default

TTT Hawk
__________________
1999 Ford Lightning. 684 rwhp & 925rwtq.10.40@129
1995 Z28 520 rwhp 490 tq N/A through a 12 bolt. 408 Iron block swap with 4L80e
N/A..10.55@134
Nitrous..9.67@129 letting out.
3938lb car with driver.
SILVERZZ28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-14-2006, 10:36 PM
LS1Tech
Pontiac Firebird




Paid Advertisement
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pinion angle? beedo Suspension & Brakes 15 08-06-2012 01:46 PM
Measuring Pinion Angle JonCR96Z Suspension & Brakes 21 07-20-2012 09:14 AM
How does pinion angle affect traction and launch? Magnus Drag Racing Tech 86 04-15-2012 04:33 PM
UMI Torque Arm pinion angle question? CamaroZ28_LS1 Suspension & Brakes 3 11-06-2011 03:01 PM
Will Lowering The Front Of The Car Change The Pinion Angle? mesterious Suspension & Brakes 5 12-27-2010 07:33 PM


Tags
angle, angles, car, drag, driveline, ford, incorrect, lose, lt1, mustang, pinion, power, tranny, vibration, wrong


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



Join Ls1Tech

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Service - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - JOBS
Emails & Contact Details