jd13

iTrader: (3)

The BMRs are $50 cheaper for the set. 32 mm up front and 21 mm in the rear. I've also heard they are 10 lbs heavier than stock. I can get these whatever color I want.

IMO, G2 arguably makes the best stuff out there. 32.5 mm up front and 21.5 mm in the rear.

Here's the deal. I whole heartly dislike body roll. I don't really know any advantages of it. To those of you who remember, I was the one with the rear driver side tire rubbing with the stock tire size (245/50/16). I never did resolve that issue. I'm leaning towards the BMRs right now, but please let me have your opinions.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Body roll is not a bad thing ... in a controlled manner ...

Eliminating body roll altogether or even severely restricting will cause handling problems.

For instance ..

My nephew runs a ST 35mm bar up front and will literally pick the inside front tire off the pavement in a HARD turn. I've followed him through turn 1 at Texas World Speedway and saw it!

That might sound cool, but he's removing 25% of his pavement contact in the middle of turn!

2 things I've been taught is that ...

a. Springs support the weight of the car
b. Sway bars tune where you want that weight to go

... and both have to work in conjunction with each other to make for a good handling car ...

With soft springs like Eibach Pros, you are almost locked into a heavy sway bar and lifting that tire. The springs are too soft to support the weight, so that heavy bar has to pull double duty ... it leaves it's sway bar roots and becomes a torsion bar, which will lift the opposite side tire.

Gigliotti's sway bars are tuned to use with his spring rates. BMR's are tuned using Lord knows what.

Brett Rockey can fab up some nifty parts and can hire someone to make strong welds. But, I have yet to see BMR parts on a World Challenge car that is a contender. G2 stuff was designed, engineered and proven on Gigliotti's F-Body and has 3 WC championships to back up his theories on handling.

I suggest you look at the whole package. Call Lou and tell him what you want from your car.

I did after buying BMR, Hotchkis and Spohn parts and still ate up the tires and the car pushed lik a pig.

Lou had me change a few components and the car really woke up.

jd13

iTrader: (3)

After reading a decent bit about it, I have to agree with everything you said. Thanks for pointing that out about body roll though, I didn't mean it to that sense.

I do have Eibach springs, and other than the appearance factor, I don't like them too much. The ride just doesn't seem to be what it could be. Granted, I do still have the stock shocks, but I'm still not satisfied with them.

Right now my susp mods are Eibach Prokit springs, BMR scfs, BMR lcas + relocation brackets, BMR adj phr. This car is a daily driver, but soon will see some autox action. I do drag it, but straight line performance isn't the priority. I want a car that can carve the corners then do the equivilent at the track.

Fulton 1

iTrader: (9)

jd13,
So many folks seem to start off with BMR, Hotchkis, etc., and then end up redoing everything later. I'm not in the league with the guys that road race or autox, but I do appreciate good advice and great products. If you're like me, do yourself a favor and listen to Mitch - give Lou a call and tell him what you're after. They'll take very good care of you. And remember that you ALWAYS save more money by doing it right the FIRST time.

SSixspeed

Lou is running a 15% discount right now.. that'll help with the price.

jd13

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, I noticed that Ssmokem.

Fulton, yeah you're completely right. If I knew what I know now, there are some things I would have done differently. There are nothing wrong with BMR parts, but they are just not what I need. I will shoot him an email soon, and hopefully get what I need.

critter

iTrader: (9)

I can't imagine where you get that. You need to pick up a decent book on chassis design or tuning, and perhaps review physics 101. It will improve the quality of your advice.
That is because he did not put a complemtary sway bar on the back. He created a mismatch in the tuning of the front and rear suspension. But even so, lifting a wheel is not necessarily a bad thing. Ever see a fast Cooper mini run? They lift the inside rear on corners. You tune the roll stiffness (using both springs and "sway bars" - they are really anti-roll bars) of the front and rear suspension to get the desired handling characteristics. Some like neutral, some like a bit of understeer and then steer with the throttle, or some prefer oversteer. If the vehicle is handling properly, it doesn't matter if it picks up a wheel
in a corner.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Losing 25% of one's road surface contact patch is never a good thing under any circumstance.

A Mini Cooper is FWD, lifts the REAR wheel under braking not the FRONT under acceleration and weighs 2/3s what an F-Body does.

Making a car go-cart stiff will chew up the tires ... at least the amount of tire that can easily fit inside an F-Body wheel well. If making it go-cart stiff is a good thing, why doesn't everyone run their Konis up and make them hard as a rock? Because it would be all over the track, that's why ...

I'm talking F-BODY not F-1.

As far as a mismatch goes, he had a 21mm on the rear ... the setup Strano runs while doing a very successful job in SCCA Solo 1 and 2.

If you've run some combinations and have some productive feedback, then I certainly have an open enough mind to listen and learn. But don't be hating and putting people down just because you disagree.

I'm no expert and don't claim to be one. I've been called down before, eaten my share of crow and learned something in the process. But at least I participate ... All I learned from your post was that you must be one cranky SOB.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Hi Carl, welcome to the party. Pull up a chair.

I have about 3 answers.

1. It's front wheel drive, it is a different tuning "style". A Mini weighs 1200 lbs and makes 150 hp on a good day (race tuned). It has wheels that are on rims that are 10 inches in diameter and usually about 6 inches wide.

An F-body weighs 3600 lbs and makes 350+ (in some cases +++) horsepower. An F-body is rear wheel drive. An F-body is usually running on tires that are mounted in 16-18 inch rims that are 8-11 inches wide.

2. Just because it is fast doesn’t mean it couldn't be faster. Simply asking if someone has seen a "insert car here" run and stating that it is fast is not exactly a good basis for comparison. If I take an 88 Hp Escort back to the year 1900, it will be very fast. I admit that Mini's run very well on road courses. They are great cars and excellent race cars. They just have little relevance to this discussion, other than the laws of physics apply to them as well.

3. A tire that is in the air is contributing nothing to lateral grip. If it were on the ground, it would be at least some help.

When a tire is in the air, it is not due to a lack of body roll, it is a lack of suspension compliance due to very large sway bars and achieving 100% weight transfer in a corner. As the body rolls, it simply lifts the wheel, the spring is unable to overcome the force of the anti-roll bar and the vehicle removes that contact patch from the playing field. By doing so, we have reduced our lateral grip and therefore the cornering ability of that vehicle. If it is pulling 1.2 g's in a corner with the wheel in the air, it may pull 1.25 with it on the ground.....you can always go faster on 4 wheels. Many front wheel drive cars are tuned to lift a rear wheel in order to reduce rear grip and allow the car to oversteer. Since the front is "overworked" with turning and accelerating and braking. The "3 wheeled" stance of most front wheel drive cars is a "band-aid" to make the car do what the driver wants it to do in corners (oversteer). IF we could generate as much grip on 3 wheels as 4, why would we run 4 wheels? The rear wheel is lifted on purpose to reduce grip. Your argument amounts to stating that "one wheel can do as much work as two". This means that a single contact patch is as effective as 2 contact patches (double the surface area), so, I no longer need to increase my contact patch to generate more grip? I believe this would require a "bending" of the rules of physics (with some exceptions made for down force...I'm sure Mini's make lots of down force...). Those rules don't bend very well, and they are not going to start now, not for a 30+ year old Mini Cooper.


You are correct, there is a force imbalance that causes this condition. A reduction in front roll stiffness would be a possible cure (or an increase in rear stiffness). My thoughts would lean towards taking some front sway bar out of the car and if that is not enough, I may add a little more spring rate.


Since when?

As already stated....Mostly irrelevant.

We are headed in a positive direction here. I can appreciate the correction or clarification of the term "sway bar".

Good point.

Wow, I find that statement to be such a contradiction that it is hard to know where to start. A properly handling vehicle will be tuned to make maximum use of it's contact patches. We are trying to maximize the effectiveness of the rubber that we bolted to the car. Any rubber that is dangling in mid air is not contributing anything except undue weight and drag to the vehicle. That is why you don't see IRL, F1, Can Am, or any other vehicle that is in a professional racing series "lifting a wheel" in corners.

Now, when racing "production based" cars, you will sometimes need to compromise. Such as a Mini, which I have already covered fairly thoroughly in this discussion.


Now, there are a few basic rules around here. Gentleman’s rules we should say.

1. If you have something to contribute, please do so in a courteous manor.
2. If you think someone is an idiot, the facts will eventually confirm that to everyone.
3. It is considered bad form to attack a persons personal character. You don't have to like them but that has no direct bearing on the facts.
4. You will be treated as you treat others in almost all cases. If you attack someone instead of presenting facts, you will probably receive the same treatment....and if you are lucky, you will get facts as well.


If you find any of these rules difficult to understand, please ask a moderator. They are visible and are rather easy to find. If you are still having problems, I will suggest that you re-read those chassis books and don't speak in class until you're called upon. And, if there will be a remedial physics class, I'd like to sit far away from you, I don't want you copying my work.

We have some very interesting and useful discussions on this board. If you would like to discuss this matter, please stick to the facts and feel free to post your opinions and questions (facts, etc) and we can all discuss this topic in a way that may prove beneficial to everyone involved. If not, we can simply call you an idiot.

critter

iTrader: (9)

Geez. I wouldn't have guessed that you would miss the point. Your posts showed you had a clue. Oh well, I guess I wasn't clear enough. Perhaps I was a little harsh, but I have seen so many posts today filled with misinformation, that I had had it. That is one of the big problems with this forum, you have no idea what a poster's credentials are. I bought BMR LCA relocation brackets for my Moser 12 bolt based on information from a poster here. He said that they fit. They don't. And that is just one example of the misinformation available here. Mitch happened to be the one that pushed me over the edge. Shouild I apologize for calling BS? Mabye, but I don't happen to think so. I don't want to get into a pissing contest about credentials, but I have read the books

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Hi Carl. Nice to meet you. Welcome to this discussion. I do "have a clue", as do many others. There is mis-information available. Lots of it. That is the difference between facts and opinions. I crew chief for a road race (NASA American Iron Extreme) car when I have time, I autocross much of the other time. I have a stack of chassis books that is of considerable bulk. I don't always agree with Herb Adams and the others, but usually I do. I find that books are a poor substitute for track time, but they are very useful.

We seem to have some differences of opinion on this matter (I was editing my post as you replied) and I (and Mitch) will be happy to discuss our points of view.

As a side note, I believe the Moser has "fabricated" mounting brackets. If I am correct on that, I'd not expect anything that "bolts onto a 10 bolt" to fit. I would call Moser and BMR before spending money though. However, I guess that advice is a little late.

Kevin

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Not as long as you are correct. I find calling BS to be a valuable tool. It will either require someone to correct an incorrect statement or step up to the plate with information.



And, I'll apologize for being a little harsh, even though I edited the post to try to be a little more gentle. I reread it and I don't guess I really did "gentle" very well. I tend to reply in the same tone in which the forum was addressed. We all have bad days....

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

I've read a few pages as well, listened to some folks who have done pretty well in road racing and asked questions when I didn't understand.

If I "pushed you over the edge" for for some BMR relocation brackets, I must've been drunk. I have rid my car of as much of that BMR stuff as I possibly could have.

I certainly don't recall any such conversation, though. However, I suspect I didn't realize you trying to fit them on a Moser. Miscommunication or misinterpretation ...

And I don't mind at all you calling BS on what I post. A lot of people do. I feel pretty good about where I'm at. Obviously, I'm not the suspesnsion tuning book worm and diplomatic expert you are, but I certainly hope to be there someday.

Kevin calls BS on my opinions all the time ... and I on his. It keeps me honest, helps me learn and I hope everyone else gets something out of it. But remember ... it's just an opinion based upon what I've gleened on the track and through research.

VipZ28

iTrader: (4)

That's correct, Moser fabs up thier brackets!!

And for reference, Carl, you're challenging the character of two of the most respected handling related posters on the board, so don't expect people to put much faith into what you have to say if you can't do it tactfully

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Mitch,

I'll make you a good deal on my BMR LCA's and PHB....

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

"Good deal" better be free ....

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Critter, going back and re-reading what I posted in comparison to what you posted, I really think we are saying the same thing.

The guy had a mismatched set of sway bars. You contend he go up on the rear and I think he should go down on the front.

Where we differ is your thinking that lifting a tire is OK and I just don't buy it.

From what I've learned and experienced, I prefer a heavier spring to support the car's weight as it transitions and use a lighter sway bar to control where that weight goes.

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

JD13,

I didn't mean to get away from your question. With the bar sizes you are looking at, I'd consider the 1LE bars. The front bar is hollow, which makes it a whole lot lighter than the solid bars from some of the others. They are also less expensive than almost anything out there. When a part is light, effective (they are GM's race bars, engineered by the guys who build the car...it doesn't mean they are perfect, but they are pretty good bars). Other than the color thing (and who will really see them, look stock, make grip....), for your application I can't see much of a reason not to try them. Just my thoughts.

mitchntx

iTrader: (14)

Easy now ... I appreciate what you say, but everyone is entitled to voice their opinion or facts as they see them.

Like posted above, unlike tuning an engine, tuning a suspension is more about driver preference and style. I probably get carried away sometimes, but only because I see someone making the same mistakes I did.

There is no single set-up to cover all the bases ... This isn't cookie cutter stuff.

Bottom line, he challenged what I posted. That's cool. I don't agree with his preferences and perspective, but that should be cool as well. Granted he came across as pretty harsh ... but we all have bad days and it sounds like he's definitely had one ...

trackbird

iTrader: (4)

Carl,

Now that everyone has had a chance to read, re-read and relax. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the various thoughts that Mitch and I and others as well have mentioned. I think this is a good topic that will get everyone thinking.

Vipz28...I appreciate the vote of confidence. But like Mitch said, all thoughts and ideas are welcome. Mitch and I are around alot and most people here have gotten to know us, our ideas and how we think, but there is room for everyones opinions (and it is nice to have them). I don't want anyone to feel like they should not voice an idea, no matter who they will agree or disagree with. I just ask that anyone who voices their thoughts does so in a "professional manor". Anyone who shows up "on attack mode" will likley be met with the same (and some folks on here are pretty good at that one).

...tell Mitch that if he needs me, I'll be in the garage cranking my Koni's up to "14" and ask him if he wants the first lap of should I take it???