Can you make an F-Body handle like a Vette?
05-30-2008, 08:43 PM
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Can you make an F-Body handle like a Vette? My friend argues I can make my 2001 Formula handle like his Z06. I think he's high on something.
So what's the word?
So what's the word?
05-30-2008, 09:56 PM
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You can make your car handle as well as, or even better, than a Z06. Meaning better lap times, higher lateral g's and general faster cornering speeds. But it still won't handle like a Z06, even if you put a C4 IRS in your fbody.
05-31-2008, 11:00 AM
#5
You could get it to handle like a stock vette. But if that vette has anything done to it then your screwed. Vettes were built for cornering first and straight line performance second. Where as Fbodys are more straight line first and cornering second IMO. Just the nature of the beast.
05-31-2008, 01:44 PM
#6
It all depends on the type of road surface you want to "go fast" on. The 'Vette has an IRS, which, all by itself, doesn't necessarily make it corner any faster than a Camaro or Firebird.
However, take a turn at speed on a slightly lumpy road, and then you'll see that the IRS allows the rear wheels to work independantly, just like the fronts, and maintain a higher level of traction. The F-bod's solid rear axle will be skipping around, as a bump on one side more directly, and negatively, affects the other side.
On a smooth race track, the difference isn't as noticible as in real world street driving.
However, take a turn at speed on a slightly lumpy road, and then you'll see that the IRS allows the rear wheels to work independantly, just like the fronts, and maintain a higher level of traction. The F-bod's solid rear axle will be skipping around, as a bump on one side more directly, and negatively, affects the other side.
On a smooth race track, the difference isn't as noticible as in real world street driving.
05-31-2008, 02:15 PM
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His friend did a lot of homework on suspension setups. Vette has 3 things going for it:
1) light weight. Alluminum frame, corbon fiber body, perfect weight distribution... light weight will make your car go fast (i.e. accel = mass / force), but in terms of handling higher ratio of sprung to unsprung weight is actually better.
2) IRS - awesome setup, but as someone already mentioned it has limited advantages on the track where road is flat. IROC camaros were designed for stock car racing (back in the day when "stock" car was actually a stock car) and GM did a lot of their own homework back in the day. They did a lot of tests and concuded that solid rear was perfectably acceptable for a race car.
3) Double a-arm setup in the front. Again, this is the most perfect setup for a race car and this is what you will see on most all-out race cars (like foruma 1's). While 4th gen f-body is not quite mcpherson setup and not quite parallel a-arms, its handling should come relatively close, especially if you do racing alignment (i.e. a little less tire life).
So instead of comparing his stock firebird to a stock z06, he really needs to realize how much difference these parts make in this order:
1) high performance tires( i.e. light weight and very stiff sidewall)
2) swaybars
3) springs
4) shocks
5) bushings
6) stamped steel suspension parts like control arms and panhard bar.
Without upgrades, all of these will make your car feel "boaty" but you do not need a z06 to upgrade all of these.
His friend bought full suspension for 3rd gen f-body with front/rear coil-over kits. All tubular components. Polyurethane and delrin bushings with some rod-ends for $3600 (rim+tire were separate). Not even close to what he paid for a z06.
Btw, I love my z06
p.s. and can someone please tell this guy that he needs to replace his stock exhaust.
1) light weight. Alluminum frame, corbon fiber body, perfect weight distribution... light weight will make your car go fast (i.e. accel = mass / force), but in terms of handling higher ratio of sprung to unsprung weight is actually better.
2) IRS - awesome setup, but as someone already mentioned it has limited advantages on the track where road is flat. IROC camaros were designed for stock car racing (back in the day when "stock" car was actually a stock car) and GM did a lot of their own homework back in the day. They did a lot of tests and concuded that solid rear was perfectably acceptable for a race car.
3) Double a-arm setup in the front. Again, this is the most perfect setup for a race car and this is what you will see on most all-out race cars (like foruma 1's). While 4th gen f-body is not quite mcpherson setup and not quite parallel a-arms, its handling should come relatively close, especially if you do racing alignment (i.e. a little less tire life).
So instead of comparing his stock firebird to a stock z06, he really needs to realize how much difference these parts make in this order:
1) high performance tires( i.e. light weight and very stiff sidewall)
2) swaybars
3) springs
4) shocks
5) bushings
6) stamped steel suspension parts like control arms and panhard bar.
Without upgrades, all of these will make your car feel "boaty" but you do not need a z06 to upgrade all of these.
His friend bought full suspension for 3rd gen f-body with front/rear coil-over kits. All tubular components. Polyurethane and delrin bushings with some rod-ends for $3600 (rim+tire were separate). Not even close to what he paid for a z06.
Btw, I love my z06
p.s. and can someone please tell this guy that he needs to replace his stock exhaust.
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05-31-2008, 02:30 PM
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The McPherson strut was a great technological leap forward in suspension technology and handling back in what?? 1949...
Originally Posted by Wikipedia.org
The first car to feature MacPherson struts was the 1949 Ford Vedette,[2] and it was also adopted in the 1951 Ford Consul and later Zephyr. It can be used for both front and rear suspensions, but is usually found at the front, where it provides a steering pivot (kingpin) as well as a suspension mounting for the wheel. Rear struts of a similar design are properly called Chapman struts.
...
Although it is a popular choice due to its simplicity and low manufacturing cost, the design has a few disadvantages, with regards to the quality of ride it provides and how it affects the handling of the car. Geometric analysis shows it cannot allow vertical movement of the wheel without some degree of either camber angle change, sideways movement, or both. It is not generally considered to give as good handling as double wishbone suspensions, because it allows the engineers less freedom to choose camber change and roll center. The wheel tends to lean with the body, leading to understeer.
...
Although it is a popular choice due to its simplicity and low manufacturing cost, the design has a few disadvantages, with regards to the quality of ride it provides and how it affects the handling of the car. Geometric analysis shows it cannot allow vertical movement of the wheel without some degree of either camber angle change, sideways movement, or both. It is not generally considered to give as good handling as double wishbone suspensions, because it allows the engineers less freedom to choose camber change and roll center. The wheel tends to lean with the body, leading to understeer.
05-31-2008, 02:41 PM
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so you are saying 4th gen f-body has a good front suspension setup? Because I was kinda saying the same thing. Let's argue about that.
And did you really have to go and attack double a-arm design. It's also a good design and there is nothing wrong with it.
btw. double a-arms do not have to be of equal length.
And I guess mcpherson is really and aged technology and no one should ever use it... wait, BMW is still building cars with mcpherson suspension. So is Porsche. Same wikipedia page.
Btw, his friend with z06 absolutely loves his wife's 330i
And did you really have to go and attack double a-arm design. It's also a good design and there is nothing wrong with it.
btw. double a-arms do not have to be of equal length.
And I guess mcpherson is really and aged technology and no one should ever use it... wait, BMW is still building cars with mcpherson suspension. So is Porsche. Same wikipedia page.
Btw, his friend with z06 absolutely loves his wife's 330i
Last edited by VILeninDM; 05-31-2008 at 02:47 PM.
05-31-2008, 03:10 PM
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Im not saying that the parallel a-arm design is no good and shouldnt be used, but your saying that it is superior to that of an SLA suspension. Its quite the opposite.
I am fully aware that the parallel double A arm McPherson design is used by certain high performance cars, but it is not ideal. The SLA is a much better design when it comes to handling charastics, comfort, etc. It offers an easier setup.
By the way... The SLA is still a double A-arm setup... Just more refined in the geometry department.
I was not attacking or arguing with you. Just correcting your statement that the SLA was not as good as the third gen setup with the parallel double A arm design. You had it backwards. As far as the wikipedia quote... I usually like to provide evidence or examples of my statements.
The SLA design is far superior to that of the dated 3rd gen design. That is all.
I am fully aware that the parallel double A arm McPherson design is used by certain high performance cars, but it is not ideal. The SLA is a much better design when it comes to handling charastics, comfort, etc. It offers an easier setup.
By the way... The SLA is still a double A-arm setup... Just more refined in the geometry department.
I was not attacking or arguing with you. Just correcting your statement that the SLA was not as good as the third gen setup with the parallel double A arm design. You had it backwards. As far as the wikipedia quote... I usually like to provide evidence or examples of my statements.
The SLA design is far superior to that of the dated 3rd gen design. That is all.
06-02-2008, 03:03 PM
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Can an F-body be made to handle like a 'Vette?? 
Probably not 
.
Doesn't mean you can't make an F-body handle well enough to SMOKE a 'Vette on a road course!!!
Probably not .Doesn't mean you can't make an F-body handle well enough to SMOKE a 'Vette on a road course!!!
06-02-2008, 04:28 PM
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Dollar for dollar, I'd say that you can make a 4th-gen F-body handle better than any Vette.
What I mean is that, let's say you have $20k. You can buy a used 2004 Z06 and have $0 left over. Or, you can go buy a 2000 Camaro for $10k and spend an additional $10k on parts. Camaro wins that race (drag, autox, road race - whatever).
Now, let's say that you have $85k. You can go buy a new ZR1 and have $0 left over. Or, you can buy a 2000 Camaro for $10k, and have $65k to spend on parts. Camaro, again.
Finally, let's say you have $30k again. You go buy a 1994 Vette for $10k, and spend $20k modifying it. You also have your $10k 2000 Camaro with $20k of mods. I'd still put my money on the Camaro (I've been in this situation, and have won).
What I mean is that, let's say you have $20k. You can buy a used 2004 Z06 and have $0 left over. Or, you can go buy a 2000 Camaro for $10k and spend an additional $10k on parts. Camaro wins that race (drag, autox, road race - whatever).
Now, let's say that you have $85k. You can go buy a new ZR1 and have $0 left over. Or, you can buy a 2000 Camaro for $10k, and have $65k to spend on parts. Camaro, again.
Finally, let's say you have $30k again. You go buy a 1994 Vette for $10k, and spend $20k modifying it. You also have your $10k 2000 Camaro with $20k of mods. I'd still put my money on the Camaro (I've been in this situation, and have won).
06-02-2008, 04:58 PM
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^ ^ good examples, for sure .
What about a C5 or C6 'Vette with a BIG budget??
I don't think you can deny the Vette's IRS and 50/50 balance forever
.
.What about a C5 or C6 'Vette with a BIG budget??
I don't think you can deny the Vette's IRS and 50/50 balance forever
.
06-02-2008, 04:59 PM
#14
Sounds like you need to bring your 4th gen back to Texas so we can settle this.
06-05-2008, 01:16 PM
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I race a couple C4 Vettes. They are gutted, with mild aftermarket/built engines (350hp or close). These are fully sorted race cars that have been racing for about 5-10 years. One of them is competitive with me, and the others are way down the list.
Besides, my car was 50/50 even before I gutted it. Well, it was actually 50.3% front and 49.7% rear. You just have to remove some unneccesary stuff up front (cruise control, A/C), move the battery, and do a couple other easy things.
As for IRS, the actual components of IRS really aren't that much lighter than a live axle. And, when you start getting stiffer spring rates and swaybars, the car tends to lean less. This means that one advantage of IRS (camber curves) is more negligible. And, we're talking about pavement - not a rally stage. Sure, there may be small bumps. But, these are the types of bumps that tires and shocks will handle to a great extent. I've never hit a rumble strip with my inside tire and had the vibrations be so great as to make the outside tire lose traction.
06-05-2008, 02:13 PM
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[QUOTE=00 Trans Ram;9500353]Not just the engine - although that's a 160hp and 140tq difference. I race a couple C4 Vettes...
Hi, what mods have you done to the car? Do you drive on the street? Any racing videos?
Hi, what mods have you done to the car? Do you drive on the street? Any racing videos?
06-05-2008, 03:48 PM
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Well, my car is a road race-only car. I drive it on the street, but only to the track that's about 1.5 miles from my house. It's got intake and exhaust, full suspension rebuild, larger brakes, gutted, caged, etc.
Here's a pic of the inside of my car, to give you an idea of what's done.
An in-car video (sorry - don't have a camera mount, so it's a friend "trying" to hold a video camera)
Also, I've got a "flyby" of my car at the local track. It's kind of funny - you can hear my car coming long before you see it.
Here's a pic of the inside of my car, to give you an idea of what's done.
An in-car video (sorry - don't have a camera mount, so it's a friend "trying" to hold a video camera)
Also, I've got a "flyby" of my car at the local track. It's kind of funny - you can hear my car coming long before you see it.
06-05-2008, 06:12 PM
#18
Not just the engine - although that's a 160hp and 140tq difference.
I race a couple C4 Vettes. They are gutted, with mild aftermarket/built engines (350hp or close). These are fully sorted race cars that have been racing for about 5-10 years. One of them is competitive with me, and the others are way down the list.
Besides, my car was 50/50 even before I gutted it. Well, it was actually 50.3% front and 49.7% rear. You just have to remove some unneccesary stuff up front (cruise control, A/C), move the battery, and do a couple other easy things.
As for IRS, the actual components of IRS really aren't that much lighter than a live axle. And, when you start getting stiffer spring rates and swaybars, the car tends to lean less. This means that one advantage of IRS (camber curves) is more negligible. And, we're talking about pavement - not a rally stage. Sure, there may be small bumps. But, these are the types of bumps that tires and shocks will handle to a great extent. I've never hit a rumble strip with my inside tire and had the vibrations be so great as to make the outside tire lose traction.
I race a couple C4 Vettes. They are gutted, with mild aftermarket/built engines (350hp or close). These are fully sorted race cars that have been racing for about 5-10 years. One of them is competitive with me, and the others are way down the list.
Besides, my car was 50/50 even before I gutted it. Well, it was actually 50.3% front and 49.7% rear. You just have to remove some unneccesary stuff up front (cruise control, A/C), move the battery, and do a couple other easy things.
As for IRS, the actual components of IRS really aren't that much lighter than a live axle. And, when you start getting stiffer spring rates and swaybars, the car tends to lean less. This means that one advantage of IRS (camber curves) is more negligible. And, we're talking about pavement - not a rally stage. Sure, there may be small bumps. But, these are the types of bumps that tires and shocks will handle to a great extent. I've never hit a rumble strip with my inside tire and had the vibrations be so great as to make the outside tire lose traction.
