95maroz28

iTrader: (21)

my upper a-arm bushings are worn out and i was wondering if i should replace them with polyurethane bushings or rubber? whichever will last longer is what id prefer as its my dd. also what are good replacement upper balljoints? i recently replaced my tie rod ends with cheap ends with lifetime warranty and the boots are pretty bad now. summit sells replacement upper balljoints? will those last?

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

If the roads are fairly smooth where you live, the poly bushings would be a good upgrade, however you won't see their full benefit unless you also install polys in the lower a-arms.

Moog or TRW ball joints are quality replacement ball joints. I believe that's what Summit sells. If they aren't, you should easily be able to get them from a local parts store. If your tie rod boots have "gone south", check Energy Suspension's catalog. They do make boots, but I'm not 100% positive they have the ones for the late F-bods.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Poly bushings will create excess unnecessary minute amounts of bind and significant stiction in control arms and will creep (cold-flow), which will lead to the need for replacement. Lubrication will only keep the inner sleeve working as it needs, but will not at all prevent the problems aforementioned.

For control arms, use Rubber. Contrary to what the myths propagated around here, rubber can last longer than poly. I know this from experience.

Shockwave179

iTrader: (7)

Agreed.

Spohn just came out with optional delrin bushings for their upper a-arms. I would go with that if you're looking to upgrade, if not then just go with rubber. I just bought a set, they should be here by tuesday, I'll let you know how they are if you're interested.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Yep. My preference would be Delrin, though I must say that I'm a bit partial keeping the stock UCA (believe it or not, all that I've weighed are actually heavier than stock, yet the stock ones are already strong enough) and merely changing the bushings to Delrin (preferably offset ones like in Sam Strano's kit).

Shockwave179

iTrader: (7)

I know I personally am not concerned by the weight, I just want to run more camber

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

Foxxtron, I've certainly agreed with your reasoning about having rubber bushings in the rear LCAs, as the rear moves laterally, as defined by the arc of the panhard bar. It's different in the front, however, as the upper a-arms only pivot.

If you install the bushings with a liberal amount of ES's "grease", and use nylok nuts on the control arm bolts, I don't see where there'd be any bind. This is how I installed mine, and the only reason I took them out was their harshness on the rough roads where I live.

95maroz28

iTrader: (21)

roads arent too bad here in texas but i guess i should stay with rubber. ive looked into moog but i dont know if the bushings are the regular ones or the so called "problem solver". part # is K6689. anyone know which they are? thanks for the info.. i just dont want to be replacing them twice

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Fair enough, stiction. Less stiction is present with Delrin bushes. Still, poly bushes will creep (cold-flow) and unfortunately, no amount of grease will prevent that.

EDIT: FWIW, I'd like to note that leadfoot4 has his most of his information correct, however I'd like to mention that delrin as the "bushing" material as opposed to polyurethane (in the upper control arm ONLY). While both operate with a "greased sleeve bearing inside a large bushing" the delrin will better resist creep and will have significantly less stiction (static friction) than the poly. Unfortunately, delrin bushes have slightly less resistance to NVH than poly bushes due to it's significantly higher durometer, but for the performance and reliability, I'd do delrin in UCA's, even over a high quality rod-end/spherical bearing.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

You could try calling rockauto about them. Last I remember, mine had the words "the problem solver" on the box, but they didn't appear to be the santoprene ones (which is a good thing).

Now, AFA poly ones, what really made me have to replace them was that they creeped so much, the tolerances between sleeve and bushing eventually deformed to the point of becoming really noisy, and then handling became slightly erratic since it affected my camber. This happened about after two years of use.

leadfoot4

iTrader: (1)

Foxxtron, I think that Moog has decided to use the phrase "problem solver" as an advertising gimmick for their parts. In other words, your car wanders all over the place because of worn ball joints and a-arm bushings. Replace them with Moog parts and the "problem's solved"....


I know what you mean about "stiction" with respect to bushings, either poly or delrin, and in some cases, teflon. I've been messin' with that kind of stuff since the late 70s, as the plastics industry first got involved in automotive applications.

The first aftermarket control arm bushings (uppers) and leaf spring "eye" bushings I bought were for the '77 Pontiac T/A that I had at the time. They were what I'd call a "first generation" material, somewhere in between a delrin and a polyurethane. They were quite hard, and squeeked like hell, as there hadn't been any effective lubricants developed for them. I purchased them from a Pontiac performance parts house, "H-O Racing Specialties".

A few years later, Energy Suspension came into the market with their products, followed shortly by Prothane, while Global West was working the Delrin products. I mention teflon, as I made up a set of teflon bushings for the panhard bar on my '85 Firebird. That was over 20 yeas ago, when I was working and had access to a machine shop. (I recently retired) The teflon didn't work out too well, but it was fun trying.... I later installed a "rod ended" PHB that was sourced from GM suspension engineer Herb Adams, under his company "Herb Adams' VSE", but the rod ends clunked terribly after a couple thousand miles. That piece is still sitting in my garage, some 20 years later....

I don't want to sound like a broken record, but IMHO, the roads that you predominately drive on will have a lot to do with your selection of bushings. As we all know, rubber is the softest, transmits the least NVH, has some "give" to absorb road impacts, but usually is the least precise for handling. Delrin, being probably the hardest of the plasic bushings, gives the most precise handling, short of rod ends, but transmits NVH, as well as road impacts. Personally, I feel that polyurethane is somewhere in between, and while there might be some issues of "cold-flow" over time, you just replace the bushings every 2-3 years. I think of them as "wear items", however I also have a lot of experience in swapping them out, so it isn't a big job for me, whereas from what I interpret here, a lot of guys are just starting out with their "car upgrades", and don't yet have the experience/tools to easily tackle this kind of job.

Foxxtron

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, I agree. It's all about compromises.

Funny that you mentioned Herb Adams. His Chassis Engineering book described the usual different bushings generally well (even though some of his formulas were slightly off concerning other areas).

but yes, good thing I have someone here familiar with different materials around here as well. I never worked for any polyurethane manufacturers, however in my undergrad I worked for a semester with all sorts of these polymers, then eventually applying them to machines as an interim industrial engineer. Neat seeing how the presence of specific monomers change lots of the material characteristics.

AFA Auto apps, I've applied my knowledge to over 20 vastly different vehicles I've owned (most of them used and not all owned simultaneously). Kind of neat how I see how my thinking is along those lines of others as well.

95maroz28

iTrader: (21)

thanks for the replies, i think im just going to order moog bushings and balljoints from summit. rockauto has the parts for a few bucks cheaper but i need to use my save 30$ deal at summit