soslo

iTrader: (12)

After 2 clutch installs, a bunch of money, and threatened physical violence, all I have to show
for my dealings with Keith at FFP in Sac is a weak clutch pedal, freshly scratched tint, improperly installed switches, and a damaged transmission.


This spring I took my 2002 Trans Am to FFP (then in Yuba City) to have them replace the stock
clutch & flywhell, install an SLP line lock, and a driveshaft loop. This was against my
cousin's (TheBrain) recommendations, but I had heard good things about FFP from other guys on
the boards.


The first round with them seemed to go alright. Keith obviously knows quite a bit about LS1s,
and we talked about the install, and how he'd have the clutch flywheel balanced be fore
installing it. Cool. The main problem we ran into was delays in getting the parts installed,
which mainly just cost me time off work to get rides down from Chico.


The day I went to pick up the car, it wasn't done yet, so I hung out at the shop and waited.
The only apparent problem at the time was a soft brake pedal (which I attibuted to the line
lock), and some vibration in the tranny/shifter at high (>3500) rpms. Fine, no biggie. I didn't
know if the lightweight flywheel caused this or the new clutch or what.


Over the next few months, there was a growing 'chatter' sound - which I thought was just the
SPEC stg 3 (Xpad), so it didn't really occur to me that there was any problems brewing...until
the day this 'chatter' turned into a full on grind.


I took the TA to a local tranny shop, and went for a long test drive with a mechanic there. He
told me that the problem was most likely a worn pilot bearing, and that the most common cause
of this on a car with 26k miles was improper installation - like the tranny was slipped in by
torquing the bolts down when it wasn't aligned just right.


Then I called SPEC, told them the story. They thought it may also be a flywheel bolts backing
out. They said the pilot bearing they use is the same GM bearing.
Then I called Keith and asked him how we should proceed. He said to bring the car in, and if
the problem was theirs, they'd make it right. They'd take pictures of everything and send them
to me so I could see exactly what was going on in there. Cool.


I brought the car down on Monday, Dec 20. They were going to tear it down on Tuesday morning
and let me know. Tuesday goes by, no call. I call back on Wednesday, they say they'll get to it on Thursday. Fine.


Thursday brings a call around noon from one of the mechanics at FFP. he said the pilot bearing
has 'disintegrated' and that the input shaft was marred because of this, and may have excessive
play. He was going to call Tremec, check the tolerances for end play, and get back to me in
case the tranny needed to be rebuilt so we could fix everything before buttoning it back up. He
was also going to take pictures.


At this point, I am not too happy about the potential of a trans rebuild, but what can I do. I called back later that day to check on the status, and they say the car is done and that I can pick it up in the morning. Sorry, no pictures.


Friday morning I get to the shop around 9:20am as they are opening. I asked Keith about the
tranny and he said that it needed to be repaired. I asked him what was going to keep the car from chewing through another pilot bearing now that the input shaft is chewed up and has
excessive play...he says "nothing." Then I said, "why did your guys put the car back together then? We talked about getting the trans fixed if it needed it." He said I could bring the car back in and they wouldn't charge for pulling the tranny. And I got my bill for $354.


Keith claimed that the problem (pilot bearing) was caused by a problem with the transmission.
However the transmission was fine when I took the car in the first time with 22k miles (now has 26k). Something isn't adding up, but I am not pressing the "I'm not paying" issue because by this time I just tired of getting the run-around.


I go out to my car and notice that the beauty ring around the line lock switch is missing (and
the nut is on backwards)...and the electric cutout switch in the ash try is in crooked, and
that the ash try no longer fits in the console, and that my shift light cover is missing
(always sits in the ash try), and that my new passenger tint is scratched. WTF?


I go back in and ask about these things, 15 minutes goes by while the guys check the car and
the shop for the pieces. The beauty ring was the only piece found. I asked Keith about the
tint. He tells the other mechanics "trannys jump up and scratch tint all of the time" - the
guys laugh. I'm not laughing. I tell Keith that it looks like a few 'teeth' marks - like from
pliers. He says no, I'm wrong, and that the tint was scratched when I got here.


They all go back inside. I check the car again for the missing pieces, and wait outside. 5
minutes later I go inside and they are all having a little meeting. Through the glass door I watch as one of the mechanics is motioning to Keith like he is pivoting with something large in his hands. I tought, "cool, he is explaining how my tint got scratched," and walk inside.


Immediately, the conversation stops and the guys are motioned to leave the room.
I asked Keith what was up, and he lit into me. "You're trying to get something for nothing" - to which I reply, 'I just want my stuff done right'.
Then he proceeds to call me a "f^&*in loser", this and that, not very pretty. I tell him that I feel like I'm getting screwed. Then he takes a few steps towards me and puffs himself up before
saying "Do you wanna do something about it". This guy is in my face challenging me to fight.


Super. I tell him "do you really want to go to jail over this when I'm being screwed?"
Doesn't seem to phase him. I take a few steps back, open the door, and stand in the doorway. He continues to come towards me, cursing me, and tells me to get the f@ck off his property. So I
leave. No threats to him, no more arguments. I don't want to spend the rest of Christmas Eve in
Jail or the hospital.


Witnesses to this at this point are:
A customer with a red corvette (drag prepped)
My wife
My sister
I don't know if any of the other mechanics saw any of this.


So, I've paid Keith twice for replacing my clutch, and so far I've gotten nothing but trouble, and a damaged transmission. The clutch pedal is really weak now, and the first time I shifted at 5000 rpms it stuck to the floor. I wonder if they even bled the lines. And still no
pictures.


Keith @ FFP is the most disrespectful business owner I have ever dealt with. I expect this kind
of behavior at the bars in Chico, but not out of someone who I've paid twice to do work that
hasn't been done correctly once.

1 BLOWN V8

iTrader: (17)

I am really sorry to hear what happened to you. I fill for you. I am a store manager for a goodyear. I think you should take this up with bar. I can get a name and number for you to call. Bar is by far great for customers that have been screwed by shops like this. Let me know if you want the info I will get it for you. I would if I where you. I also would never do business with them hearing this story.

soslo

iTrader: (12)

Yes, I would appreciate that info 1 BLOWN V8 - thank you.
-Aaron

bmfcamaro

iTrader: (1)

take the bastard to court. this is why i do my own work. i hate being in that situation. i needed an exhaust done, obviously i couldnt do it myself so i brought it to strickly performance. similar results. what the hell is this world coming to. just a bunch of ******* people that dont care for their jobs. sorry to hear about your situation.

Frontman

iTrader: (3)

Wow. That totally surprises me. Keith was a really nice guy when i needed to talk to him he helped me out alot. We sat down for a good hour to discuss my car. Blows my mind really. But if he did what you said he did, take him to court with your proof. Don't let him intimidate you if he is in the wrong. Good luck, hope this get's settled soon and painlessly but i just don't see that happening.

Let us know what happens becuase i was considering having them do some work on my car. All shop owners need to understand, this stuff does get around, and it WILL effect your business.

soslo

iTrader: (12)

Yes, it surprised me as well. I've talked with him for a couple hours here and there about my car. But after a couple of shoddy installs, things change I guess.

Chingon

iTrader: (1)

That sucks man...I hope everything works out for you.
E-mail him this link and have him give his side, I'd love to hear it

SpdfreakLS1

iTrader: (2)

Dude, what will this do for you? Your posting everywhere about this crap, your only posting your side. and the people that know both sides say you need to grow up. Do you think posting everywhere will hurt his buisness? uh, fat chance, because people know Keith, his shop, and how he handles his buisness. If you dont like it, learn how to do things yourself, or go somewhere else we dont care. Hey other posters, do you think a succesfull buisness man and shop would have gotten succesfull if they REALLY treated everyone like what he said?????...just something to think about

Avengeance

iTrader: (4)

******' A!

To everyone reading this.. Im asking you to not to form an opinion without Keiths side of the story... I mean go ahead if you want but in all honesty it isnt fair to FFP. Keith has documented, and signed in some cases, paperwork from soslo regarding this situation. Childishly flaming FFP like this is not going to make anything better for you, soslo.

Id also like to point out that Keith @ FFP is a stand up guy.... he is one of the BEST IN THE BUSINESS! The thing is Keith is a NO BULLSHIT person.. he will tell you like it is and apparently some people cant handle the upfront type of person Keith is... personally I respect Keith for being like that... apparently some people, like soslo, will get butthurt cause someone isnt willing to tell them what they want to hear instead of the upfront and honest truth.

Reboot

iTrader: (5)

So let me get this straight. You're pissed because your tranny has too much end play and took out your pilot bearing and you got charged for the R&R. The beauty rings was a 2 minute fix, and the ashtray wouldn't stay put because he refused to use JB Weld on it (like it was before). Not sure about the tint.

After hearing both sides, it seems that you just wanted to throw a **** fit to get out of paying for the R&R on the tranny.

Keith is small guy, and by no means intimidating. If he actually puffed up and called you a loser, you should have stepped up and took him out instead of becoming a little Internet crybaby on every car site you could find.

Like I said on another site, FFP has done a lot of work on my car. They have put a couple scratches on my car (it happens), but always pointed them out to me and offered to pay the detailing costs.

Go back and play on the Ford boards with your 16 year old friends.

HALLZ

iTrader: (1)

The bad part about this is that it does affect bissness.

Hence the reason for all his "cut and paste posting" If it cost him 2 coustomers it has cost mroe than the cost of fixing it right.

This is what,....the third site that I personaly know of were he has posted the exact same thread 100% word for word.

Any of tyou that have put a clutch in a car can figure out the validity of his complaints.

Chingon

iTrader: (1)

Look, there are 3 sides to a story, his, the store owners', and the truth.
I think it's sad that there are people like you that think this way...yea, kick his ***. Besides the fact that almost everyone in this country is so ****** sue happy, fighting won't solve anything....so let's say he kicks Keith's ***, then what? I bet Keith will want to fix his car then

He has the right to voice his opinion, so does Keith. I'm not taking sides here, that's why I said Keith should give his side...then everyone can decide for themselves if the shop is reputable or not...what's the big deal?

u8dusst

Otherside of the story, as posted on our club message board, for those who like to believe every god damn thing they read...

I was not at a computor until today because mine at home is not working right now.
I’m sorry people bring their personal problems to a public forum when they could have been resolved in private providing they want to. I have always liked the “NorCal” forum better than the rest because it was a family oriented place & was not spammed by solicitors or people bashing one another or businesses.
I will start by saying this, anyone who has dealt with me before knows that I try my best to be rational and fair with all my customers. I take care of our mistakes at our expense and give the customer the benefit of the doubt if the situation could go either way. I will state the facts of the situation and let it go at that. I will not waste my time defending myself in a situation where it could have been taken care of at the shop. Also where the facts are drastically construed and one sided when I should be spending my time working on loyal customers cars, this is very unproductive. I would also like to thank those who have supported us as well as those that have not passed judgment before they have heard both sides.
1) We installed a customer supplied “SPEC” clutch on 6/09/04 with a new roller pilot bearing (mileage was 22,153). The car came in on 12/20/04 with 26,934 miles a difference of over 6 months and just shy of 5,000 miles since the original install. Customer told us he would be coming back to Sacramento on Friday 12/20 for other reasons & wanted to pick it up then to save a trip.
2) Here is a disclaimer that the customer signed off on just prior to us originally installing the clutch (Have signed copy on file): “In the past we have had bad luck with the clutch system you brought us to install (unable to match balance which would cause severe vibrations if not balanced). We are going to have a machine shop match balance the assemble provided it will balance. Either way we are not liable for any problems you may have with the performance or vibrations associated with the clutch system. There is NO WARRANTY. Also the clutch needs 500 miles of normal stop and go driving before any hard driving is done. By signing below I (customer’s name) understand this.”
3) Customer told us he thought the noise was a bolt rubbing on the bell housing because we did not tighten it properly.
4) I told the customer before he brought the car into us that if we found a mistake on our part that there would be no charge. I also told him that if we found that the problem did not lie with our work that he would be responsible for the estimate repair bill in which he signed.
5) I drove the car through the parking lot before we started to work on the car and in my opinion a majority of the noise was from the transmission with a slight occasional noise from what I felt might be the clutch assemble so we proceeded to remove the tranny.
6) The problem turned out to be that the pilot bearing had started to come apart due to the excessive end play in the end put shaft.
7) We called the customer (12/23 in the early afternoon) to inform him of our findings; digital pictures were taken & informed him of what we felt needed to be done in order to prevent the problem from reoccurring. Customer declined on having the tranny repaired so our only option is to install a new pilot bearing and send him on his way.
8) The customer came in the shop with a bad attitude & made the comment that now he was going to have to pay the R&R of the tranny again when he decided to have it fixed. I said yes. He then stated that he wished we had told him that the tranny needed to be repaired before we reinstalled it (We did). He proceeded to be rude and complain about having to pay the bill so I told him that if he wanted to leave the car with us that we would R&R the tranny again at no additional charge (He would be responsible for only one R&R charge plus the pilot bearing) but he was to take care of getting the repaired.
9) The customer proceeded to leave, but after about 4 minutes he then came back in. His complaints now were that the 2 beauty rings/nuts that hold the toggle switches (Cut-out & line lock) in place had the wrong nut on the wrong switch (one was black & one was silver). He also accused us of scratching the window tint on the passenger side window. By this time I was running short on patience because it was obvious that no matter what I did the customer was not going to be happy unless we did work for FREE. I went out and looked at the beauty rings and asked Billy to switch the two and asked him if he possibly scratched the window because if we did then I would make it right. I explained to Billy that I would not be mad over apx. a $40.00 repair but I wanted be fair. He assured me he did not do it as well did Issac. I myself had a hard time seeing that we could have done it considering all the work was done from the underside of the car.
10) The customer and I went back in the office in which the customer proceeded to complain about the window and him having to pay the bill. I once again offered to R&R the tranny again at no additional charge if he left the car with us & he got the tranny repaired (this was done not because we were in the wrong but to simply try to make peace and prevent an ordeal such as this thread from arising). The customer said NO but that he felt he should be compensated because of the beauty rings, window tint & because we originally told him we were going to do the work for free (NEVER did I say this. Also then why did he sign a work order that showed a charge for the R&R in the event we found no error on our labor install). I said what compensation are you looking for, Response; “Not having to pay any of his bill”, I told him this was ridiculous. I told him that if we had done lets say work on his motor where we had to lean over his fender and his accusation was scratches on the fenders then I would be more inclined to believe him. I also said that lets say he came in corrigibly and paid his bill then came back and politely told me that he noticed his window tint was scratched that the whole picture would come across differently. At this point in time it was obvious that no matter what we did he was not going to be happy because he was looking for something for nothing and because of this he had little credibility with me. We were getting no where with the situation so I told him to leave the shop. We both exchanged words and I again asked him to leave several more times. When he continued disrespecting me in my business and would not leave I then proceeded to walk around the other side of the counter where he was standing and at this point he darted out the door like a bullet and remarked do you want to go to jail. This was probably because he was running his mouth off but felt he was unable to back it up. Either way I will be respectful if the other party does the same but when you act as the person did then yes I will tell you to leave and not to come back because the hassle and stress is not worth the energy it takes.
Once again thank you, sorry for the BS & hope everyone one has a safe and happy new years.

u8dusst

And for the record, I believe this is the funniest part of the story.

We both exchanged words and I again asked him to leave several more times. When he continued disrespecting me in my business and would not leave I then proceeded to walk around the other side of the counter where he was standing and at this point he darted out the door like a bullet and remarked do you want to go to jail.

soslo

iTrader: (12)

True

This is true. I signed the disclaimer. I also paid to have FFP take the clutch/flywheel to a machine shop and have everything match balanced before being installed. And the clutch was fine. This wasn't the problem.

True - that is what SPEC said might be the problem. I also told them that I took it to another shop who told me the pilot bearing was installed incorrectly.

True


I say false because there wasn't excessive endplay before the first install (at 22,153 miles).

Completely false. I called repeatedly to check on the situation. One of the mechanics informed me that the trans may need to be rebuilt, but that he was going to call Tremec. He was also compare the endplay with a brand new T56 sitting in the shop. When I called later that night, the car was already put back together.

Again, false. I came in at 9:20 - right after you waled in Keith. You sat at your desk and did paperwork for 5-10 minutes while I read magazines at your counter. You printed an invoice for $354 and I signed it. This was before I even saw the car.
Did I ever say I wouldn't pay? No. What I said was, "How was the endplay?" And you said it was bad and that the tranny would need to be rebuilt. To which I replied, "Why did you put it back together then? I talked to a mechanic last night who said he wouldn't put it back together if it needed to be rebuilt."
Believe it or not - I wanted the car to be fixed correctly in the first place, not get bandaids over and over.

Yes, because I hadn't even seen the car yet. I was going to cut my losses and get everything repaired BY A DIFFERENT SHOP AT MY OWN COST.
But when I saw pieces missing and both switch re-installed incorrectly, plus scratched tint - it was icing on the cake.

The only thing I asked for was compensation for the tint. You offered to have your guys reinstall the switches, and I said no because it isn't difficult, I can do it my self. The point is that this stuff should have been done right in the first place. You did offer to give me free labor for re-dropping the tranny. By now I didn't want your shop to continue working on the car.

Because you wouldn't check the car if I didn't.

False. I said "I just want it done right"



I did do this. Don't you see? I was sick about the whole situation and didn't want your shop to keep working on the car. You always come across as nice "sure, we'll tear the car down for free if it's our problem" - then the next thing I know I'm paying for it.

You did ask me to leave the shop...AFTER (in front of another customer:
1. telling me I needed to learn to tune my own car
2. repeatedly calling me a F&*k'n loser
3. coming at me with your arms out and asking "you wanna do something about it?" (this is when I asked him if he wanted to go to jail)

As soon as told told me to leave, I did. I didn't say anything to you afterwards.


Nice jab. It's these kind of little comments that help to show people your true colors. These are the kind of comments that I'm sure the Bureau of Automotive Repair likes to see from all of the 'reputable' shops.

SpdfreakLS1

iTrader: (2)

This is getting funy now!!!!!

Frontman

iTrader: (3)

Can't we all just play nice?

ForceFedPerformance

I would like to thank who ever it was that posted my side of the story. I am very busy tuning vehicles and do not have time to chase him from board to board. I have exhausted my efforts on trying to resolve this issue, I even Pm'ed the following.

As you can see I tried to resolve this issue several times to which he declined. What more can a business do in an attempt to be fair.

BiGGinZ

I like to hear about things like this because it needs to be brought up if a place does you wrong just as if they do everything perfect. Not going to say who is right or wrong because only they know what actually happend. But IMO something had to happen for this post to even have been started. I hope you guys work on whatever happen and call a truce.

Avengeance

iTrader: (4)

Thing is there isnt one shop that does everything perfect, but I know what you mean. You cant please everyone.... and if someone gets miffed about something the only thing you can do is try to make it right. With that said FFP has tried to resolve the issue. Hopefully people that read this will understand these things do happen... and notice the fact that FFP made the effort to make it right.