THE Beerman

I'm looking at a pretty rare Firehawk, I'm just having no luck finding anything to compare it to pricing wise. Like the title states, it's a 2001 Trans Am based Firehawk that has only 60k miles with a mild cam, long tubes, electric cutouts, and an exhaust. It's a manual car with T-tops. And the kicker is it's in the ultra rare Sunset Orange Metallic (ad states 1 of 14). The current owner has removed the original wheels (still in great shape, he's just protecting them from getting screwed up) with a set of Comp Grey ZR1 wheels. Other than that, everything else is stock; i.e. suspension and interior. Thanks for the help.

Firebrian

There's a spreadsheet for each year on this site and it shows 13 coupes and 2 verts in 2001 - 15 SOM Firehawks. The automatic coupe (2 built) is much rarer than the M6 (11 built). And frankly, anything but black is scarce. After NBM and Red all the colors are very scarce. Only 12 white coupes.

You ran into one of the most desirable cars out there. Had the previous owners left it stock it would have even been more desirable as the engine mods are significant. I'd value it at about 15-20% more than the other colors....assuming the same level of modification. Others may disagree and say 5-10% or 15%. The WS6's don't bring all that much less than a Firehawk. The wild body style of the WS6 is in much higher demand vs. the Firehawk. Rarity isn't everything. So you can find comparable 2001/2002 M6 WS6's in non-SOM for sale and figure them 15-20% higher for an SOM Firehawk with similar modding.

I'd put a typical 60K mile 2001 WS6 M6 at around $12K. A Firehawk is possibly 5-10% more or $12,500-$13,000. For SOM, add another 15% = $15,000. Figure $3K premium over similar non-SOM WS6's. Some purists won't like the fact that this SOM car has been significantly modded (beyond bolt-ons)...and because of that might feel the SOM premium has been mostly ruined. It would be nice if the cam specs/tune came with the car. With only 15 M6 2001 SOM's made, they're ALL plenty desirable as long as they are clean, maintained, and running well. In 2002 they made 57 SOM Firehawks total. So the 2001 is a better deal imo despite the "last of breed" hoopla for the 2002's. 784 SOM WS6's in 2001-2002 and only 72 SOM Firehawks. The WS6's are extremely hard to come by. The Firehawks almost never show up. No doubt some of them are very low mileage garage queens that are being kept for posterity. It's sort of hard to come by a mid-mileage car with 60K miles. It seems they are either 0-30K miles or 85K+

People can say what they want about the SOM premium on a 60K mile modded M6. All I can say is, go find one being offered at a reasonable price.

Out of approx 140+ V8 Pontiac LS1 F Bodies from 1998-2002, only 1 car is SOM. An automatic with 80K at $14,995...dealer owned.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-s...31812803&Log=0

NC01TA

Although I dislike mods, especially engine mods, on a sweet potential collectible, I'm glad to hear that the owner has put away the original wheels for safekeeping. That could mean a lot as he cares about the car and wasn't hellbent on running it into the ground. I hope not anyway. Maybe he put away the wheels because he was going to drive the hell out of it. You will have to do your homework on this. I agree with Firebrian's pricing assessment. If the car checks out 'in person' and drives OK, go for it, but not more than $15k. This Firehawk will still need things in the coming year as it is still a used car. You don't want $20k+ into a 60,000 miles modified car unless you plan on keeping it for many years and get your money's worth. Good luck!

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

The seller does have a rare car, but there are reasons that Sunset Orange is not very popular.

If the vehicle is in great condition as the mileage is low, the only modifications that would put me off would be a wild camshaft, extensive suspension changes that indicate drag racing such as driveshaft safety loop and soft shocks in the front, nitrous and gears in the rear end. Look for a service history, excellent paint, never been refurbished, no accident history, all tires match and have date codes near 2013 for the $15,000.00 price.

Good luck to your search.

Firebrian

I'd put it differently. There "were" reasons SOM was not very popular....back in the day. Certainly not today though. NCO1TA gave the only reason the OP's SOM car might give some people a bit of concern....the engine mods.

And the reasons that SOM cars did not sell so well in 2001-2002 is actually a huge plus today....with a small number of surviving examples. You can't compare SOM on a highly desirable 2001-2002 WS6 to a 2015-2006 passenger sedan. In one car, you want to be seen and noticed. In the other, you just want plain Jane and immediate resale value. And didn't the dealers back in 2001-2002 charge a premium for the SOM cars on their lots? That alone would steer away most customers looking to pay no premium at all. Dealers stocked the popular colors of that time....mostly black and red, and also some blue, pewter, silver, and white. Could you order an SOM car? Did the public know that? The original owner of my car could have ordered it in Hugger Orange. I suspect that was a premium cost. He ordered it in red.

Look at the "wanted to buy" ads on this site. You will see an inordinate number of ads specifically requesting SOM and ignoring some of the more popular colors of that era. SOM cars priced reasonably and close to market sell immediately.

I liken the current SOM situation to the wild - high impact colors of the Dodge and Plymouth muscle cars of 1969-1971. Was plum crazy purple/in-violet popular new? Heck no. Is it today? Heck yes. Same goes for green go/sassy grass green, Petty blue, panther pink/moulon rouge, etc. Those colors when factory original bring big premiums. How about Hugger Orange on a 1999 Camaro? SGM and BPM were rarely seen on WS6's...and only in 1998. Hugely unpopular at the time. And bringing huge premiums today if you can find one on a largely original, lower mileage, clean car.

Often times the unpopular nature of certain collectibles when new, is what makes them even more popular years down the road. 1970 Plymouth Superbirds were hugely unpopular and took years to get them all sold off...sometimes having to modify them by removing the nose and wing...into more standard looking 1970 Roadrunners. They are darlings today.

I'd love to own any of the above colored F bodies today. There are certainly more desirable (and more expensive) than black or red cars. SOM Firebirds are essentially under insatiable demand.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

MotorTrend just had an article about Orange cars holding their value due to rarity and low mileage.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/brigh...better-colors/

However, this desirability of Orange is still alive today. Here are the 2013 Camaro production numbers. Orange is down the list, way down with Yellow.

Now that explains why they hold their value.

Black is still the most popular colour and probably always will be.

Black GBA 25,402
Victory Red GCN 10,633
Summit White GAZ 11,939
Silver Ice Metallic GAN 7,610
Rally Yellow GCO 5,551
Inferno Orange Metallic GCR 5,491
Blue Ray Metallic GXH 9,538
Ashen Gray Metallic GLJ 9,391
Crystal Red Tintcoat GBE 7,353
Cyber Gray Metallic GBV 0
Kinetic Blue 1,524

THE Beerman

Thanks everyone for the info. I'm working on securing the money before I go look at it. I've talked to the owner, and so far he seems to be a straight up type of guy. I'm hoping to go look at it in person soon. My only worry so far after talking to him, is the original owner did the mods, a supposed mechanic, and did them himself. I am very good friends with the owners of a local GM specialist shop, and they would get the car immediately to fix and tune anything that may need it, if I get it.

Firebrian

A lot of the buyers of current performance Mopars and Chevy's today are also fans of the classic muscle car wars of the 1960's and early 1970's. Hot colors on classic/older muscle cars are the most popular today. And those buyer today are thinking years down the road that a hot color today (regardless of low production/low popularity) will be more desirable, especially as these cars "become" collectibles. A significant number of those new muscle cars go to car shows for display and judging....suggesting they are already collectibles.

Dodge brought back most of the hottest 1970-1971 Challenger colors into their current lineup. Yes, you can essentially have a brand new "1970 Challenger" today....only performance and reliability will be better. One cannot compare color popularity or resaleability on regular daily driver sedans vs. weekend muscle cars. Those are 2 totally different mind sets.

The MT article is sort of useless since all they found out was that hot cars with much lower mileage than most passenger cars, being well kept, and collector-oriented, hold their value better. I could have told them that. They could have done a similar study showing that cars driven a lot and being somewhat abused, have the lowest resale values. Now if you daily commute your sweet performance car 20K-25K miles per year....watch it depreciate like a rock. In any event, the MT "study" evaluated 3 yr old current cars, not 1998-2002 performance F bodies. Any hot or very low production color from that era has held value better than the higher production colors, including gold (SGM).

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

Let us know what comes from your visit to see the car in person

jamin

been watching the same car, mods are hurting it or else it would be gone, just depends on if your willing to buy someones mods, keep us posted

Bandits96ss

Lol definately not hard to locate online.....as a guy follows this market quite regularly. I would say if you could knock $1000 off and your fine with the mods to buy it as if it is something you like you will kick your self in the *** later for worrying about a $1000 here or there because you will most likely wait years before another one comes available.

As a point of reference when it comes to "mods" the owner seemed to mirrior what I would consider the gold standard for what I would want. The fact that he port/polished the heads instead of just throwing a cam in and the fact that he bought Kooks headers is substantial evidence that this was not slapped together (fyi Kooks headers are over $1000)

If I personal had the extra liquid cash I would be all over this. One point of reference if your a true collector and worried solely about the value dont buy this as you will struggle to enjoy it. If you want to be one of the 15 people that can say they own an SOM Firehawk then heck yeah. I say this becuase at 60K miles things like the SLP production sticker (i.e. see the picture of the door jam) are worn and tattered, the hood paint sounded like it was starting to blister/peel (very common with SLP cars). I own an SLP car and believe me I struggle with this to the point that I dont even enjoy driiving it because I wish it was a gem.

poncho-mike

I know the car you're looking at. It was owned by a young man who lived in Raleigh. His dad was also into Pontiacs.

I first saw the Firehawk up for sale around 2004, not long after the original ownder bought it. His car inspired me to find and buy my SOM 2002 WS6 T/A 6-spd convertible. It took me four or five years to find a stock low mileage car, but I eventually did. They rarely come up for sale, and when they do the mileage is high or they were modified.

The SOM cars definitely hold their value. Back in the summer, I thought about selling my car and posted a WIW on this forum. I had a number of replies, with several being very serious about buying the car. I have an offer of $23K for it from a buyer in California. I'm an old fart, my only reluctance in selling is that I prefer to deal people face to face.

It's hard to say how much the modifications hurt the value of the Firehawk. I have been into Pontiacs since the mid-70s, and own several of the early 70s 455HO and SD455 cars. In general, the rarer the car, the more modifications hurt it down the road. If you are buying it to enjoy, I wouldn't worry about the modifications. But if you intend to hold it long enough to allow it to become a collectible, you should wait for a stock car or one easily returned to stock. It was extremely hard to find an unmodified SOM WS6 or Firehawk with a manual tranny ten years ago, I can't imagine it is any easier now.

If you want more information on what I know about the car, you can PM me. I am not aware of any issues (accidents, abuse, etc) involving this car.

Firebrian

Poncho-Mike, you've no doubt been around the horn. What would you consider an "unmodified" M6 to be? Absolutely zero mods front to back....100% bone stock? Or acceptable to have a lid, shifter, cat back, upgraded wheels, with all original parts saved/fully usable? Or additional bolt ons only (no welding) where everything can be removed/returned to stock? Of course, at that point, the car was likely "performance" driven with those bolt ons....and for how long?

poncho-mike

I started a long post, then copied it to Word and may post it later.

In short, when you are looking for a car, you have to know what your intentions are for the car. If it is to preserve a future collectible, then buy quality. If you plan to modify it for performance and drive it a lot, don't waste your money on buying a low mileage stock vehicle.

When Pontiac ended the Firebird line, I knew I wanted one of the last cars built. And I wanted it to be one of the rarest and most performance optioned available, and I wanted it to be stock. But I knew only 30 SOM 2002 WS6 6-spd convertibles were produced, and out of that 30 probably only 4 -5 were going to be low mileage, and probably only 2 - 3 were going to be stock and never involved in an accident. I knew I would probably have to settle for less than my ideal car, and I would probably have to pay over market value for it when I found it. My mentality was to find the closest thing I could to my ideal car, then adjust the value based on the modifications or mileage. If I couldn't strike a deal at a reasonable offer, then I would assess what the chances of finding a better car were. I was probably willing to pay above market for a modified car at the time.

I actually found my car, 100% bone stock down to the original tires, with 20K miles. I'm getting a little senile (according to my kids) but I bought this car around 2007 at a time when the financial markets were melting down. I still paid a premium for it and was just plain thrilled to find it. The wife put me in the doghouse for months over that purchase.

But I have to say, had I not bought that car when I found it, I don't think I would have found another one.

Very few of my cars are totally stock, but the modifications are typically bolt-on type stuff (exhaust, engine mods, wheels, suspension upgrades). And if I bought a car missing original components, I looked for the numbers matching parts so the car could be returned to stock in the future.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

So what happened to this rare 2001 Sunset Orange Metallic Firehawk with less than 60,000 miles?

It looked like a beaut.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

What is the criteria for "collectible" though? It's a wide range and subjective IMO. I see all kinds of cars at various shows, some judged some not, many of them are not particularly valuable and some don't have much of a following/demand regardless of their condition. To the one who uses it for special purposes, it may be collectible....to everyone else, maybe not.

And is it really "collectible" if you can still buy one of the same generation/same general options brand new? I see these at shows as well, but I don't think of them as collectible at this point. If the same general car can still be ordered and bought new off of dealer lots, then existing models of the same generation are certainly still depreciating and not particularly special IMO. I don't know, again this seems to be subjective and wide ranging.

I don't know about this one. SGM is disliked by most, so while there may be someone willing to pay a premium, that someone generally isn't going to be easy to find. A color like SOM is rare and now also popular, but I would not call SGM popular/desirable in general. In fact, there are probably more people who would avoid a SGM car than those who specifically desire/seek them.

SOM was a standard color (not a premium/extra cost tint-coat such as we see today on certain GM cars.) And I don't recall any special dealer mark-ups on SOM cars in my region. In fact I recall a local Pontiac dealer (Grossinger Pontiac) having an SOM Formula on their lot for a very long time back in 2002. Nobody seemed to want it. Demand was not particularly high for that color in 2001-02.

Firebrian

I'd be a buyer for that SGM WS6....and at a premium. It only matters to me that the car is extremely low production and in typical or better condition for the particular mileage. I guess that makes me the 1 out of 10 or out of 100. I certainly don't mind the color one bit. And with only 59 built in 1998 (my preferential year) including convertibles, that's all I need to know. The pukey looking yellow brown color (butterscotch/bahama yellow) on the 1969-1/2 Super Bees and Roadrunners are considered unattractive by many in that world. In my mind the 440-6 option overshadows any particular color. I don't care what color as long as the car is "right." I see SGM the same way.

I don't find the color scheme on the 2001 FH anniv cars very attractive. But, the package with 139 built is more than enough to compensate. FH and WS6 verts have always interested me because of the very low production.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

If factory rarity is a primary factor that excites you about a car for hobby purposes, then it sounds like SGM would be an ideal candidate for your collection. I certainly think it's cool to see rare factory options as a spectator, but in terms of personal ownership I've never been one who is particularly concerned about rarity one way or the other; I'm much more interested in condition and finding options that I personally like. Whether there were 100 or 100,000 built with a given option has little bearing on my interest as a buyer (then again, I only buy cars as toys or transportation, never as growth investments, so I only concern myself with what I like rather than what buyers in the future might find most desirable.)

An option is rare for one or more of three reasons:

1) Few knew about it.

2) Few in that market segment could afford it or saw the value in it.

3) Few liked it.

In the case of SGM, the reasons are 1 & 3. This color is a good example of something rare that does not equal additional value (due to lack of demand/desirability.) You're definitely that 1 in 100 (maybe 1 in 1000) buyer who would pay a premium for this color. I recall an SGM Z28 that was for sale here in IL for a very, very long time at a price that was better than comparable black and red cars. It seemed that the owner couldn't give that car away. That was several years ago, but I don't think the market has changed much for that color.

As for older cars with special engine options, I would agree that said special engines can overshadow a less-than-ideal color. Especially since top performance engines are what made these cars so desirable in the first place. But this just isn't the case for '98+ V8 F-bodies at any trim level, as an LS1 is an LS1 and no other V8 was available. On the other hand, I would agree that I'd take a SGM (possibly my least favorite color) LS1 F-body over a silver (my favorite color) V6 model.

70T/A400

iTrader: (2)

As I remember, Sport Gold Metallic was a difficult paint for GM in their paint shops. Combine that with the lack of popularity and that is why the numbers are low.

There are other colours that are rare from Bright Purple Metallic to Red Orange Metallic to Mystic Teal and Blue Green Chameleon. They are all low numbers, which also means they are polarizing. Either you love it or you would not be caught inside it.

I prefer to purchase a car, not on what is popular or what someone else admires, but since it is a hobby and time is devoted to it, I want something I can live with everyday.

Bright Red is popular but not for me. Arctic White is as well, but not for me. And I am not too sure about tan interior either. Prefer the black from 2000 onward.

One thing I do know, if someone chooses to personalize their vehicle whether with mechanical modifications or styling enhancements, look out. Not everyone shares your sense of what a WS6 should look like or perform like. Be prepared to remove those modifications when it comes time to sell or take a bath.

Firebrian

I've always gravitated towards a combination of rarity + condition in my years in the classic car markets. That's what got me into the 1967-1971 Mopars in the first place. I saw the crazy colors they produced in those years, the insane performance packages, low production #'s, and then wondered why they were so cheap in relation to the much more plentiful Chevys and Ford Mustangs of that era? (well, that changed from 1996 to 2007 as they more than caught up). And from the hundreds of car shows I've attended over the past 20 years including regional and national meets, there is a significant portion (15-30%?) of that market that focuses as much on the investment potential of their vehicles as the drivability/fun factor in them....even if it just means not losing money. Some of them want NO options on their car. Others want every option that could be ordered. I certainly buy a car for both what I like, and what the market will/should like down the road.

One of the guys I know (age 50 or so) has a stable of a dozen or so high profile 1967-1972 Mopars...nearly all #2 cars that can be driven...and he drives and drags the heck out of them when he can. Hemi's, Superbird, convertibles, 6 packs, etc. And he's been in the market for over 20 yrs. That's very typical of what I've seen, have your cake and eat it too. Maybe my view is the exception when it comes to '98-'02 F bodies. It's certainly not that exceptional of a view when considering the entire collector car market of the past century. Most people want a fun car to drive that's easy on the budget. A significant percentage wants a higher end collectible they can still drive from time to time. A mint 15K 1998 SGM WS6 will be quite a collectible years down the road...due to being the first year and having almost none remaining in nice original condition. The fact that no one wanted it in 1998....is the very reason it will be wanted in 2018 or 2028. Who wanted a Superbird in 1970? They lingered on lots for years, some had to have the nose and wing removed to sell then as regular Roadrunners. There's a contingent outside of us LS1 Tech enthusiasts that will purchase our cars (or already have) for their potential to come. They don't look at these cars like most of us. I would suspect in 10 years a mint 1998 SGM WS6 will bring more money than a similar 2002 SOM WS6 does.....it may already be true. Though hard to verify since such a car would likely change hands without being advertised via word of mouth. Not many of our cars have great potential, or any potential. SGM WS6 would be one with potential. The relatively large numbers of the very popular anniversary WS6's and SS's almost work against them for the longer term.

There was likely something not right with that SGM Z28 that lingered for so long. Either the condition wasn't there, the mileage was way too high, or the price being asked was too high (ie too large a premium). But if anyone has a mint 1998 SGM WS6 M6 with 35K miles that they want to sell for $11K-$12K to match the earlier referenced 2002 WS6 M6 with 35K miles that a member bought for $13K, I'd be all ears. (and 4 model years lower is a $2K deduction). The only lower mileage, mint SGM WS6 I saw for sale the past 3 years was advertised in the $20K's as I recall. That may have been 25K-45K miles iirc. I can't be the only one dumb enough to think SGM is worth a nice premium.

I suspect the level of interest is a lot closer to 1 out of 10 to 1 out of 100 than 1 in 1000. Just reading the posts here over the years (WTB, for sale, WIW) there are probably several dozen interested people right here on LS1Tech.com. And it only takes 1-2 interested buyers and the right price to make a sale. Any sweet LS1 SGM car offered for sale will get plenty of interest. If you can show me a nice SGM WS6 for the mileage, priced at little to no premium that is not selling, I'd be interested to dig deeper into it further.