How to go 12's w/ your LS1
04-03-2007, 09:03 AM
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How to go 12's w/ your LS1 It seems that every post in the forum is somebody with basically no mods that that wants to know what to do to run 12's, somebody who has done some mods that hasn't run and wants to know if they will get into the 12's, and people who have run in the 13's and want to know what it will take to get into the 12's or why they aren't in them yet. It really shouldn't be this hard guys (and gals).
There are more than a few ways to go 12's in an LS1 powered car.
First off lets get this out of the way. Every single LS1 powered car has the power to go 12's with a stone stock drivetrain and completely stock curb weight. The question is whether or not you will have a track and the weather to do it? Meaning... is the track you are at prepped well enough for you to hook up the car off the line, is the track at a reasonable elevation for decent air, and is the weather right for decent air. A slick track, on a hot humid night at a track at a high elevation will kill any car's performance.
We have all read or heard about the bone stock LS1 powered cars that have gone 12's... some of these might be a little sketchy, but it it possible. So what does it take.
In my opinion there are two ways to do it. Take a basically stock car and put some sticky tires on it (add a stall converter for the auto to go with the sticky tires)... and I mean actual slicks not drag radials, or do some basic bolt on mods and get there with brute force on street tires. It will take more mods for a auto powered car to go 12's on street tires than an M6 car... unless of course the M6 driver just isn't very good. The reason being the stock gearing in the auto is more economy minded than the M6 cars, and the stock torque converter will not stall high enough to put you into the power band of the LS1 for an aggressive launch (auto guys can chime in here too).
I belong to the later group btw. I have some basic bolt on mods (in sig) to both my cars and have gotten there by having enough horsepower to push the cars into the 12's after a pretty crappy launch on street tires (2.1X 60 foots). Both my cars are M6's. Both were run with street tires with about 30 psi in them (both my cars wear factory size 275/40R17's vs. the narrower 16" tires on the non-SS/WS6/Firehawk cars). I launch both cars at between 2200 - 2600 rpm depending on how sticky the track is (experiment at the track on this one). I powershift all 3 shifts at 5500 rpm. It also takes decent air, but a track at sea level is not required.
For my M6 I simply let out the clutch without slipping it and roll into the gas as aggressively as I can without blowing off the tires. The key here is to have the tires spinning just hard enough to get you moving and having the tires stop spinning at the moment your speed matches an rpm where you have enough power for the car to not bog. The car should be jumping off the line without bogging and without feeling like you will need to let out of the gas to get it to stop spinning if you do it right. Too much rpm and to fast into the gas and you are sitting there spinning... not enough and the car is chugging out of the hole. You can get an even better launch if you slip the clutch... but be aware that too much heat will cook your stock clutch really fast (especially on the older cars from what I read).
On an automatic its easy to launch. Just hold your foot hard on the brakes and bring bring the rpms up against the motor right up to the point the rear tires want to spin against the brakes. When you launch just release the brake and roll into the gas. How much traction you have will determine how quickly you can roll into the gas. Once again you should spin some, but not so much you feel like you are sitting still.
You can practice the launch on the street to get the feel for it, but realize that at the track its going to be different and require a different rpm and different throttle roll on rate. I feel like the street usually has more grip with street tires, but not always (maybe the tracks I race at just suck at track prep). And remember to turn the traction control off if you happen to have it... it kills the power out of the hole and its bog city for auto's and M6's.
Once you get it launched in an M6 its 3 clean power-shifts at 5500 rpm and you are on your way to 12's. A power shift is done by holding the gas all the way to the floor and hitting the clutch as quickly as you can while shifting the car... never lifting off the gas. If done right it will be nearly instantaneous. Note that with a stock shifter this is a lot harder to do (especially the 2-3 shift)... but it is possible. Also note that powershifting is hard on everything. But hey, you want 12's right. The early cars with the hydraulic problems (do a search) have a tendency to have problems getting the clutch to fully dissengage during a power shift and hence eat up syncro's (ask me how I know). Its hard on the drivetrain, but its worth a solid tenth for each power shift (that's 3 tenths total for all you non-math people). That 3 tenths lets you get into the 12's without headers on an M6 car IMO.
If you are driving an automatic just let the car do its thing after the launch. I've yet to race a stock auto car that benifited from me manually shifting the auto myself (others can chime in their experience here as well).
For both M6 and A4, if you are trying to race on old generic tires, or over-inflated tires you are just going to need even more horsepower to overcome your crappy launch. I've seen a guy with a 114 mph trap speed running low 14's because of this btw.
The other way to get into the 12's is to just stick really sticky tires on the car. At this point you are maximizing traction to get you there. For an M6 car just find the right rpm to launch (once again depends on the track), for an auto car, you are probably going to need to put a higher stall converter in so you can get the motor up into a higher rpm and use those sticky tires. I have been beaten on the track by more than a few LS1 powered cars with slicks that run well into the 12's with 2-4 mph LESS trap speed. I have seen cars barely break 100 mph run high 12's with a chassis set up for drag racing and slicks. This is the way cheaper way... but then you start to have fun with all the weak LS1 drivetrain parts.
The most important mod of all in all cases is the driver mod. The better the driver is at getting the power to the ground with a particular car at a particular track will determine just how much you need to mod the rest of the car. There are no one size fits all here.
Good luck
There are more than a few ways to go 12's in an LS1 powered car.
First off lets get this out of the way. Every single LS1 powered car has the power to go 12's with a stone stock drivetrain and completely stock curb weight. The question is whether or not you will have a track and the weather to do it? Meaning... is the track you are at prepped well enough for you to hook up the car off the line, is the track at a reasonable elevation for decent air, and is the weather right for decent air. A slick track, on a hot humid night at a track at a high elevation will kill any car's performance.
We have all read or heard about the bone stock LS1 powered cars that have gone 12's... some of these might be a little sketchy, but it it possible. So what does it take.
In my opinion there are two ways to do it. Take a basically stock car and put some sticky tires on it (add a stall converter for the auto to go with the sticky tires)... and I mean actual slicks not drag radials, or do some basic bolt on mods and get there with brute force on street tires. It will take more mods for a auto powered car to go 12's on street tires than an M6 car... unless of course the M6 driver just isn't very good. The reason being the stock gearing in the auto is more economy minded than the M6 cars, and the stock torque converter will not stall high enough to put you into the power band of the LS1 for an aggressive launch (auto guys can chime in here too).
I belong to the later group btw. I have some basic bolt on mods (in sig) to both my cars and have gotten there by having enough horsepower to push the cars into the 12's after a pretty crappy launch on street tires (2.1X 60 foots). Both my cars are M6's. Both were run with street tires with about 30 psi in them (both my cars wear factory size 275/40R17's vs. the narrower 16" tires on the non-SS/WS6/Firehawk cars). I launch both cars at between 2200 - 2600 rpm depending on how sticky the track is (experiment at the track on this one). I powershift all 3 shifts at 5500 rpm. It also takes decent air, but a track at sea level is not required.
For my M6 I simply let out the clutch without slipping it and roll into the gas as aggressively as I can without blowing off the tires. The key here is to have the tires spinning just hard enough to get you moving and having the tires stop spinning at the moment your speed matches an rpm where you have enough power for the car to not bog. The car should be jumping off the line without bogging and without feeling like you will need to let out of the gas to get it to stop spinning if you do it right. Too much rpm and to fast into the gas and you are sitting there spinning... not enough and the car is chugging out of the hole. You can get an even better launch if you slip the clutch... but be aware that too much heat will cook your stock clutch really fast (especially on the older cars from what I read).
On an automatic its easy to launch. Just hold your foot hard on the brakes and bring bring the rpms up against the motor right up to the point the rear tires want to spin against the brakes. When you launch just release the brake and roll into the gas. How much traction you have will determine how quickly you can roll into the gas. Once again you should spin some, but not so much you feel like you are sitting still.
You can practice the launch on the street to get the feel for it, but realize that at the track its going to be different and require a different rpm and different throttle roll on rate. I feel like the street usually has more grip with street tires, but not always (maybe the tracks I race at just suck at track prep). And remember to turn the traction control off if you happen to have it... it kills the power out of the hole and its bog city for auto's and M6's.
Once you get it launched in an M6 its 3 clean power-shifts at 5500 rpm and you are on your way to 12's. A power shift is done by holding the gas all the way to the floor and hitting the clutch as quickly as you can while shifting the car... never lifting off the gas. If done right it will be nearly instantaneous. Note that with a stock shifter this is a lot harder to do (especially the 2-3 shift)... but it is possible. Also note that powershifting is hard on everything. But hey, you want 12's right. The early cars with the hydraulic problems (do a search) have a tendency to have problems getting the clutch to fully dissengage during a power shift and hence eat up syncro's (ask me how I know). Its hard on the drivetrain, but its worth a solid tenth for each power shift (that's 3 tenths total for all you non-math people). That 3 tenths lets you get into the 12's without headers on an M6 car IMO.
If you are driving an automatic just let the car do its thing after the launch. I've yet to race a stock auto car that benifited from me manually shifting the auto myself (others can chime in their experience here as well).
For both M6 and A4, if you are trying to race on old generic tires, or over-inflated tires you are just going to need even more horsepower to overcome your crappy launch. I've seen a guy with a 114 mph trap speed running low 14's because of this btw.
The other way to get into the 12's is to just stick really sticky tires on the car. At this point you are maximizing traction to get you there. For an M6 car just find the right rpm to launch (once again depends on the track), for an auto car, you are probably going to need to put a higher stall converter in so you can get the motor up into a higher rpm and use those sticky tires. I have been beaten on the track by more than a few LS1 powered cars with slicks that run well into the 12's with 2-4 mph LESS trap speed. I have seen cars barely break 100 mph run high 12's with a chassis set up for drag racing and slicks. This is the way cheaper way... but then you start to have fun with all the weak LS1 drivetrain parts.
The most important mod of all in all cases is the driver mod. The better the driver is at getting the power to the ground with a particular car at a particular track will determine just how much you need to mod the rest of the car. There are no one size fits all here.
Good luck
04-03-2007, 06:57 PM
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well the stock cam normaly peaks out at 5500 so i set my shifts around 6k to keep the car in the powerband and fwiw an auto is easier to hit 12s than an m6.a stall is not needed nor is a slick a good drag radial not shittos will do just fine.slicks on an m6 would be instant murder to the 10 bolt during a powershift. JMO
04-04-2007, 10:36 AM
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5_02ls1,
Good info on the automatics... I really didn't know with the LS1... all my auto drag racing was with LT1's. But I have driven auto LS1's and I can say that even without stall the stock shift firmness/quickness needs some attention. It always seems like the cars are loosing a lot of time shifting (while stock). I had based my estimates on what auto cars generally run vs. my own cars at the same track on the same days... they are always a little slower than I am. IMO the problem with M6 cars is being consistant... which I mentioned on the driver mod part
A good driver with an M6 can be as consistant as an auto IMO.
My selection of 5500 rpm shift point is due to 3 things... 1. I have never seen my car go any quicker/faster by shifting higher (but I've only tried it a few times out of over a hunderd passes down the track). 2. I recall reading an article back in '99 about these cars where the testers noted they got their best times shifting at 5500 (hence why I picked it). 3. The advertised power peak for my '99 SS is at 5200 rpm (torque is at 4400 rpm), so I am already going past peak by a few hundred revs. But I'll be the first to admit that the car seems to still pull OK past the advertised peak. Maybe on a car with intake and exhaust mods there is a reason to wind it a little higher (I might be able to knock another tenth or two off my own times).
My intentions in the post were more to give a general overview of what all LS1 cars can do and what I did specifically. But as I mentioned there are more than a few ways to get there. I also never said that the drivetrain would last forever with slicks... just that you would go 12's easy (if you don't break on the first pass).
Good info on the automatics... I really didn't know with the LS1... all my auto drag racing was with LT1's. But I have driven auto LS1's and I can say that even without stall the stock shift firmness/quickness needs some attention. It always seems like the cars are loosing a lot of time shifting (while stock). I had based my estimates on what auto cars generally run vs. my own cars at the same track on the same days... they are always a little slower than I am. IMO the problem with M6 cars is being consistant... which I mentioned on the driver mod part
A good driver with an M6 can be as consistant as an auto IMO. My selection of 5500 rpm shift point is due to 3 things... 1. I have never seen my car go any quicker/faster by shifting higher (but I've only tried it a few times out of over a hunderd passes down the track). 2. I recall reading an article back in '99 about these cars where the testers noted they got their best times shifting at 5500 (hence why I picked it). 3. The advertised power peak for my '99 SS is at 5200 rpm (torque is at 4400 rpm), so I am already going past peak by a few hundred revs. But I'll be the first to admit that the car seems to still pull OK past the advertised peak. Maybe on a car with intake and exhaust mods there is a reason to wind it a little higher (I might be able to knock another tenth or two off my own times).
My intentions in the post were more to give a general overview of what all LS1 cars can do and what I did specifically. But as I mentioned there are more than a few ways to get there. I also never said that the drivetrain would last forever with slicks... just that you would go 12's easy (if you don't break on the first pass).
04-15-2007, 02:48 AM
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good write up...im going to the track tomorrow in search of my 12's and I will surely try shifting out around 5,500rpm compared to my usual 6,000rpm. I ran a 13.2 w/ only a flowmaster on streets on a 2.15 sixty. This time out I have longtubes and a ory so hopefully I can power into the 12's. BTW I tapped a 108mph with just that muffler so the car pulls hard...
04-15-2007, 10:16 AM
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There's one LS1 powered car that won't get into the 12's stock and that's the GTO. 350 hp is not enough to offset that weight. In great conditions and a person shifting his a** off in the M6 he/she could probably squeak get into the low 13's but not 12's completely stock that is.
07-29-2007, 10:49 AM
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Yes, yes, the GTO! The "Fat Bastard" of the family! .......lol
On another note, bone stock I can't think of any 04's getting in the 12s, but a few in the low 13s. But the 05/06s have quite a few high 12s recorded, but of course its the LS2 and we were talking about the LS1.
On another note, bone stock I can't think of any 04's getting in the 12s, but a few in the low 13s. But the 05/06s have quite a few high 12s recorded, but of course its the LS2 and we were talking about the LS1.
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07-29-2007, 10:18 PM
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so it looks like im not the only one that gets tired of the "what will it run?", "will i run 12's", so on and so on...i think the only response to those threads should be run it then the thread be locked...now if someone has ran it and needs some tips, then keep that thread open...just for the record...ive havent ran my car at the track yet...i know it will be atleast 12's if i can drive...so that beating the dead horse thread was more to show people how stupid those threads are
07-30-2007, 08:50 PM
#9
Originally Posted by T-hawk
For my M6 I simply let out the clutch without slipping it and roll into the gas as aggressively as I can without blowing off the tires. The key here is to have the tires spinning just hard enough to get you moving and having the tires stop spinning at the moment your speed matches an rpm where you have enough power for the car to not bog. The car should be jumping off the line without bogging and without feeling like you will need to let out of the gas to get it to stop spinning if you do it right. Too much rpm and to fast into the gas and you are sitting there spinning... not enough and the car is chugging out of the hole. You can get an even better launch if you slip the clutch... but be aware that too much heat will cook your stock clutch really fast (especially on the older cars from what I read).
Originally Posted by T-hawk
Once you get it launched in an M6 its 3 clean power-shifts at 5500 rpm and you are on your way to 12's. A power shift is done by holding the gas all the way to the floor and hitting the clutch as quickly as you can while shifting the car... never lifting off the gas. If done right it will be nearly instantaneous. Note that with a stock shifter this is a lot harder to do (especially the 2-3 shift)... but it is possible. Also note that powershifting is hard on everything. But hey, you want 12's right. The early cars with the hydraulic problems (do a search) have a tendency to have problems getting the clutch to fully dissengage during a power shift and hence eat up syncro's (ask me how I know). Its hard on the drivetrain, but its worth a solid tenth for each power shift (that's 3 tenths total for all you non-math people). That 3 tenths lets you get into the 12's without headers on an M6 car IMO.
Originally Posted by T-hawk
I have seen cars barely break 100 mph run high 12's with a chassis set up for drag racing and slicks.
Good write-up.
