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Old 01-07-2017, 11:52 PM   #1
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Default MAX RPM LS-X Engine 10500 + RPM

OK, ALL HERE invited !

Let us on LS-1 Tech set the WORLD RECORD for a "benched" LS engine.

I will "bear" the cost with sponsor support ?

I HAVE the record for the FIRST 600 HP LS-1 engine.

I would "donate" my Eight Stack LS-7 port, my ECU, Benched at WesTEC (free), assembly labor, etc.

When finished we could "donate" the engine, MY choice a ticket raffle with proceeds to CHALK ? ( ALL )

Lance
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Old 02-02-2017, 10:55 AM   #2
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Interesting.......would likely need to have a custom crank of 3" or less stroke...?Billet? Billet Aluminum LONG rods maybe? Surely needs shaft rockers...
What about valve size?? Would a smaller, lighter intake valve still allow enough flow to make meaningful power at nearly 11K rpm?
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Old 02-03-2017, 12:20 PM   #3
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Lance, any game plans for the oiling system?
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Old 02-03-2017, 03:06 PM   #4
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Default Ls-247 1200hp @ 15k

Hi guys, thanks for the interest as IS Rick Mackie in Oshkosh.
He has the head patterns we need at the Edelbrock Foundry in San Jacinto.

The "1cam" questions :
1. David at Marine Crankshaft agree to the crankshaft @ 2.375" with Honda Rod bearing size.
2. I will need Ti Rods @ 3.5"- 4.5" with Honda 1.89" NASCAR bearing ?
3. NO rocker shafts.
4. Intake @ 2.6" and Exhaust @ 2.2" bore size.
5. NO P/V contact as the engine is "free" running with 18:1 C.R.

The "Joe" question:
Yes the requirement will be Dry Sump.
I could put the pump where the cam sprocket was placed ?

Thanks for the help, please continue.

Lance
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Old 02-05-2017, 04:22 PM   #5
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Which Block, and what Bore Size?
Dailey Engineering makes some Excellant & Compact
Dry Sump Systems. I would use Iron Block with
Hot Honing for ring seal and RF85 (for block)
for friction reduction Along with REM Polish
(Weddle Industries) for crank, bearing surfaces
reciprocating assembly also for friction reduction.
Some things I would have liked to use on my
Last build but time and logistics didn't allow
(RF 85 & REM).

I will contribute AMSOIL DOMINATOR RACING OIL
Your choice of Viscosity. I would suggest 5W/20
We also have a 0w/20 (not a specific race oil
But used in Engine Masters quite often).
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:59 PM   #6
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Personally I'd go LS7 block. If we're stuck with stock sized stuff, use a 4.8 L crank. Def LLSR. Don't have my computer in front of me but I got ideas. Pistons are gonna need room for serious fly cutting.

What fuel?
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:19 PM   #7
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Darth
All custom stuff not even sure if there is a "Cam" per se, no
Rockers and free running, electronic/magnetic actuation?
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantera EFI View Post
OK, ALL HERE invited !

Let us on LS-1 Tech set the WORLD RECORD for a "benched" LS engine.

I will "bear" the cost with sponsor support ?

I HAVE the record for the FIRST 600 HP LS-1 engine.

I would "donate" my Eight Stack LS-7 port, my ECU, Benched at WesTEC (free), assembly labor, etc.

When finished we could "donate" the engine, MY choice a ticket raffle with proceeds to CHALK ? ( ALL )

Lance
I have already done this. Destroked with 4.8 crank demensions (3.280 stroke), but titanium alloy, titanium 6.495 rods, forged -25cc dished pistons, iron 6.0 block bored to 4.065 (ls3 bore), had a hard time finding lifters that would hold out but lunati makes a wonderful high rev lifter, jesel rockers worked until 11k, comp 999's kind of worked but had lots of spring surge. I.e. Why I was posting about sb4 heads from mercury racing. If you google sb4 heads and click on the link with sema mentioned you can see my nagging comments if they have been approved yet. They decided not to make a head conversion kit. You have to buy a $30,000 crate motor for their heads.
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:05 PM   #9
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Oh yeah.. the pistons have a comp height of 1.105
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:09 PM   #10
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Sorry to keep adding but on the valve trane side, Chris frank did a nice p&p I fitted the heads with USED NASCAR valves del west 2.180 intake and stainless 1.60 exhaust del west valves had a 5mm stem and I found a vw valve guide that oddly fit id and od requirements as well as length

Last edited by Gtslo04; 02-05-2017 at 10:10 PM. Reason: More info
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Old 02-05-2017, 10:13 PM   #11
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Ran into cavitation problems with wet sump, never went with dry sump. Just tore the melling 10355 down and engineered my own internals for a lower flow rate but maintained the high pressure spring
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Old 02-06-2017, 10:51 AM   #12
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Default Oil Pump & Block

Hi guys, thanks for the help.
The block "billets" are $20K+ for a short deck block. (too great cost)
My first guess is a GEN-IV decked to 8" then "closed" @ 4.065" bore. (LS-3 rough @ $900.00 GM new price)
The Oil Pump requirement, thanks to "help" here, is now a minor concern as I will use the same method as was done by Ford in the Boss 494 CAN/AM engine program.
The Oil Pump will be in the pan driven by a chain. (my Marine pan)

Yes "Navy" like the Coats Tire "ball valve" head conversion EXCEPT using the Star Motor rotary actuator.

My friend Rick Mackie stated that their first DFV engine has yet to be delivered.

My head design does not use Poppet Valves.

I do like the "GTS" idea of a VK-56 head on a LS block, though that is a different project.

Lance
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Old 02-06-2017, 07:54 PM   #13
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Flat plane crank
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Old 02-06-2017, 09:19 PM   #14
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OOOOOOOO!!!!!! A Coates style rotary valve. Very interesting......I hope Star Motor solved the sealing issues Coates Engineering had. I am HUGELY intrigued by the Sturman Industries digitally activated hydraulic valve system.

Why so short with the Connecting rods? Titanium I can see, but 3.5"-4.5" is crazy short. With a 2.375" stroke your pistons would have to be HUGE even if you deck the block an inch......like 2.3125" compression height pistons.

It looks like with an 8" deck height and the 2.375" crank a 5.7" rod would require a 1.1125" compression height piston for 0" above or below deck surface. That is more realistic for piston height I think.

Usually a long rod/short stroke is beneficial for rpm.....Like 2:1 or more ratio. The rod length I quoted above would generate a rod/stroke ratio of 2.4:1. I wonder if at some point past 2:1 longer rods start to hinder rpm potential?
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Old 02-08-2017, 03:12 PM   #15
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Default Camless Valve Operation/Sturman

Hi, you may want to change your "handle" to CamlessWNDR.
The Coates system did use a Ball Valve, my style is a Barrel Valve @ 50/50 when at rest.
The SBVE engineer Harry, DiGi-Valve team member, manufactures Ball Valves for the NAVY @ 10,000 psi operating pressure in Slit.

The Star Motor will "push" the Barrel Valve open or closed with spring return.
This is a PMM rotor with RE magnets in the stator group.

YES, I may want to increase the stroke to ???
The R/L should be in the 1.35 range as in the Lambo F-1 engine.

Now for Carrol & Eddie, thanks again for a nights rest on your guest bed in your home @ 9K', Woodland Park.
You should of asked me to bring Oxygen.

Lance
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Old 02-09-2017, 10:36 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantera EFI View Post
Hi, you may want to change your "handle" to CamlessWNDR.
The Coates system did use a Ball Valve, my style is a Barrel Valve @ 50/50 when at rest.
The SBVE engineer Harry, DiGi-Valve team member, manufactures Ball Valves for the NAVY @ 10,000 psi operating pressure in Slit.

The Star Motor will "push" the Barrel Valve open or closed with spring return.
This is a PMM rotor with RE magnets in the stator group.

YES, I may want to increase the stroke to ???
The R/L should be in the 1.35 range as in the Lambo F-1 engine.

Lance
HA! Yes, a "NO cam wonder" would be even more impressive than our One cam wonder. But at the time it was a jab at the 2 and 4 cam Ford motors that were not performing as well.

That is quite interesting. I wonder if, since you are eliminating the rpm limitations of the poppet valvetrain, you could actually achieve @12,000 rpm with a more conventional lower rotating assembly? I think Coates was claiming a conventional performance crank and rods in a 5L Ford motor was going to 12,000 or so with his rotary valves...

Wonder what a forged 4.8L crank, 6.46" Carillo rods, and Weisco pistons bottom would rev to with no limitations in the valvetrain.......
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:19 AM   #17
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Default Ls-273

Hi guys, yes I agree that a 2.625" stroke may be possible with a 5.125" rod.
The "deck height" would be 8" with a R/L of 2.
The piston speed would be 6125 @ 14K RPM

This could be safe.

The "flat" crankshaft might be a problem when we do two stroke, four stroke, six stroke ?

Lance
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Old 02-09-2017, 11:48 AM   #18
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Holy crud, this thread blew my mind.
Bit of info I hope can help; from the bikey world, I have one of the highest revving 250cc production IL4s sitting in a garage. They indicated 19,000rpm redline but allegedly did 17,500 measured at the crank - although I'm not sure which model that was measured from. Screamers.

Anyway, where I was getting with this - all manufacturers who had competing bikes of this class were also over square bore/stroke configuration.

Good luck.
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Old 02-09-2017, 12:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantera EFI View Post
Hi guys, yes I agree that a 2.625" stroke may be possible with a 5.125" rod.
The "deck height" would be 8" with a R/L of 2.
The piston speed would be 6125 @ 14K RPM

This could be safe.

The "flat" crankshaft might be a problem when we do two stroke, four stroke, six stroke ?

Lance
Lance,
What about 2.75" Stroke, 5.5" Ti Rod (2.0 Ratio)
Leaves 1.125" Piston CH with 8.0" Deck Ht.
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Old 02-09-2017, 02:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantera EFI View Post
Hi guys, yes I agree that a 2.625" stroke may be possible with a 5.125" rod.
The "deck height" would be 8" with a R/L of 2.
The piston speed would be 6125 @ 14K RPM

This could be safe.

The "flat" crankshaft might be a problem when we do two stroke, four stroke, six stroke ?

Lance
That still leaves a piston compression height of 1.5625" which is larger than most if not all available aftermarket forged LSx pistons. I would think the added weight at the end of the connecting rod at BDC and TDC at @12,000 rpm would try to smash or rip the con rod in two.

A longer rod with a shorter and therefore lighter piston would be better in my admittedly unprofessional opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAVYBLUE210
Lance,
What about 2.75" Stroke, 5.5" Ti Rod (2.0 Ratio)
Leaves 1.125" Piston CH with 8.0" Deck Ht.
Exactly like this......
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