Anybody know about the th200
11-01-2011, 01:23 PM
#1
Staging Lane
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Anybody know about the th200 I searched and pretty much came up with nothing aside from Texas speed uses one. I could barely find anything on Google. I know they're out there and the advantages and disadvantages they bring to the table. Where can I find parts for them? I'm entertaining the idea of maybe eventually running one. I currently have a th350 for what its worth.
For clarification I am NOT talking about the 200-4r.
For clarification I am NOT talking about the 200-4r.
11-01-2011, 02:48 PM
#2
If you are planning on making decent power you do not want to run a TH200. It is not a good idea unless you plan on spending a large amount of money up front. The TH200 is the predecessor to the 200-4R. They share similar internal hard parts... such as stamped drums as opposed to cast or forged drums. If you think it's difficult and expensive to keep a 4l60e alive then you do not want to pick on one of those.
I am not familiar with the Tx. Speed unit. But keep in mind they have deep pockets and own a shop. Both of those lend themselves to running one-off combinations. Usually you find the early lightweight automatics in the Super classes in NHRA racing. The 200-4r and the Chrysler Torqueflite are terrific examples of highly modified 3 speeds that are widely used in high end drag racing. But, they can be exotically expensive too. It's similar to the Powerglide and 400 in the Turbo and Nitrous applications I Sponsor. Those are not units that I would sell to a client as they are constantly being refined.
I would be curious to know why you would be asking that question. Are you planning on building a lightweight car for the racetrack or is this going to be a daily driver?
g
I am not familiar with the Tx. Speed unit. But keep in mind they have deep pockets and own a shop. Both of those lend themselves to running one-off combinations. Usually you find the early lightweight automatics in the Super classes in NHRA racing. The 200-4r and the Chrysler Torqueflite are terrific examples of highly modified 3 speeds that are widely used in high end drag racing. But, they can be exotically expensive too. It's similar to the Powerglide and 400 in the Turbo and Nitrous applications I Sponsor. Those are not units that I would sell to a client as they are constantly being refined.
I would be curious to know why you would be asking that question. Are you planning on building a lightweight car for the racetrack or is this going to be a daily driver?
g
11-01-2011, 03:28 PM
#3
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Call it curiosity if you like. That's mainly what it is. I'm kind of wanting to build a "max effort" stock short block car of sorts. Recently I saw references of the transmission in question, one of which being the tx speed car, and I was curious to find more information. I didn't find much of anything, which is why I posted. I may be foolish but not nearly foolish enough to even ask this question for a heavy dd lol. My car is sans all creature comforts and should easily be sub 3k pounds with me. Most likely lighter but I can't verify since it hasn't hit the scales in two years. I figured the two things holding me back would be the expense and the fact that the car will predominantly be on the street, for joy riding and a few runs. It'll see the track too but with the track an hour away it kind of sucks. So consider my inquiry more of, research for the sake of boredom. We both know the transmissions are out there but I doubt any are in an application like mine.
11-01-2011, 03:46 PM
#4
I hear ya. I get curious about different combinations myself... you should take a look at some of the 7 second N/A 4 cylinders that are in Super Comp cars. Now that's some hard core wicked technology. Uber lightweight pistons that approach 5.00" bore sizes with sheet metal intakes, Big Duke cylnder heads, fuel injection with egt's and widebands in each hole tuning to Lambda! Now that sort of thing fries my brain! Talk about dreaming up some one-off ****!
Because it's so far for you to make it to the track, and you have a lack of creature comforts and are considering a "max effort" build... I would recommend you look into a Powerglide, a TH400 or a 4L80E or maybe a 2.10 (TH400 with 2.10 ratio low gear)
The reasons for the Glide, nothing else compares to it's ability to manage big power consistently. A Pro Mod style unit can run upwards of $7,500.00. A mild 1,000 h/p build will be in the $900 - $1,500 range.
A 400 or 80E would run anywhere from say $1,500 - $3,000 depending on how they were trimmed out. Obviously each has it's advantage. Nothing like eating up the track with an overdrive unit that runs mid 9's!
The 2.10 would be a really cool 3 speed to run. They have a reasonable 1st gear ratio that will let you throw really large amounts of power to at the hit and not worry about losing the tire.
maybe you should consider a truck and trailer and forget about driving it on the street. It might be that you are at the point to consider it a race car for all intents and purposes. Maybe you just need to step off and go big with this build.... keep kicking it around and you'll land on something cool that you'll be happy with!
g
Because it's so far for you to make it to the track, and you have a lack of creature comforts and are considering a "max effort" build... I would recommend you look into a Powerglide, a TH400 or a 4L80E or maybe a 2.10 (TH400 with 2.10 ratio low gear)
The reasons for the Glide, nothing else compares to it's ability to manage big power consistently. A Pro Mod style unit can run upwards of $7,500.00. A mild 1,000 h/p build will be in the $900 - $1,500 range.
A 400 or 80E would run anywhere from say $1,500 - $3,000 depending on how they were trimmed out. Obviously each has it's advantage. Nothing like eating up the track with an overdrive unit that runs mid 9's!
The 2.10 would be a really cool 3 speed to run. They have a reasonable 1st gear ratio that will let you throw really large amounts of power to at the hit and not worry about losing the tire.
maybe you should consider a truck and trailer and forget about driving it on the street. It might be that you are at the point to consider it a race car for all intents and purposes. Maybe you just need to step off and go big with this build.... keep kicking it around and you'll land on something cool that you'll be happy with!
g
11-01-2011, 04:31 PM
#5
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Yeah stuff like that is insane. I don't make much power. It's just a cam only car that is pretty light. An ms4 cam to be specific. I have a th350 and a ptc 7 inch stall that I'm probably going to just ride out since I have it. I have a powerglide laying around but my car doesn't really the grapes to pull itself through 2 gears, it could,but at my power I think 3 gears would be best. It'll be a badass single digit car some day but for now it'll stay na and ill just do my best to go as fast as I can. A local has an ms4 car that traps 114 so I'd like to try to hit 120, since we don't get along,lol.
11-02-2011, 09:14 AM
#6
Nothing like a good old local track rivalry! I love 'em!
In that case, then what will make or break the deal is the converter. In a N/A deal there i no substitute for a high end converter. PTC makes a nice piece, but I would tinker with it. Meaning, when you have it at the track try to flash it from idle. Then on the next pass leave at as high an rpm as you can without pushing through the brakes... assuming your 400 isn't equipped with a brake. Point is, try to find it's sweet spot by logging 60' times and trap speeds.
Then, you might go for a looser converter... N/A deals need to leave at a high rpm and lock up early. You might even consider putting some gear in it....
g
In that case, then what will make or break the deal is the converter. In a N/A deal there i no substitute for a high end converter. PTC makes a nice piece, but I would tinker with it. Meaning, when you have it at the track try to flash it from idle. Then on the next pass leave at as high an rpm as you can without pushing through the brakes... assuming your 400 isn't equipped with a brake. Point is, try to find it's sweet spot by logging 60' times and trap speeds.
Then, you might go for a looser converter... N/A deals need to leave at a high rpm and lock up early. You might even consider putting some gear in it....
g
11-02-2011, 09:51 AM
#7
I'm familiar with the TH200 for performance applications. It is used very successfully in Stock Eliminator classes.
Don't let the stamped steel drums worry you, they work in a 4R70W to 1000 HP.
They work fine to the 500-600 HP level without anything super fancy.
Don't let the stamped steel drums worry you, they work in a 4R70W to 1000 HP.
They work fine to the 500-600 HP level without anything super fancy.
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11-02-2011, 06:24 PM
#8
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I have 4.10s for now. I'm going to send the converter out to get restalled to about 4500. I know I could benefit from even more but I want to work my way up and yeah I'll play with it quite a bit. His car is still 4l60e equipped with a vig 4k stall. Jake, care to share some info? Be it here or pm, I'm all ears. If thats the case I MIGHT be able to get away with it. I'd probably be willing to give it a shot, if its a bitch I'll swap the 350 back in. My car won't see a power adder for a while. I like the simplicity and reliability (I realize nitrous and forced inducted mills can be reliable) that an all motor application brings to the table, and I don't have the bankroll for a 700+ horsepower na engine, so i could probably fit in that 500-600 level for a while. The MAIN reason why I even asked all this aside from curiosity, is efficiency. Common sense it might be, but if two cars make the same power, with the same drivetrain, but one guy took 300 pounds out of his car, the other guy at a 300 pound disadvantage isn't making his setup as efficient as it can be. Same goes for running a lighter tire over a heavier one, or a smaller converter over a cheaper larger one, or in this case...a transmission that not only brings a lower static weight to the table than a th350/th400 offers, but also much lower rotational mass and drivetrain loss. That has been a big goal from the beginning with my car, to make it as "efficient" as I can given its setup.
Last edited by L80Killa87; 11-02-2011 at 06:31 PM.
11-02-2011, 11:58 PM
#9
I've spent ALOT of time with the 200-4R for retrofit and Grand National cars.
The TH200 is essentially a 200-4R without the OD section and a slightly more archaic VB design. It's very much similar to a 4L80E's relationship with it's predecessor the TH400.
I have the 200-4Rs living successfully at 600+ HP/TQ in low 10 second cars that weight 3800+ lbs. I have a handful of 200 3 speeds in combos something like yours. Stock Eliminator or cars that are looking for that last hundredth.
Many people are scared away by the stamped drums, smallish looking planets, and other features of the TH200 and 200-4R.
Another way of looking at it is this, the stamped steel drums and lightweight parts may in fact be weaker, BUT the parts being lighter are not causing damage to themselves. In other words the way that an automatic transmission functions, with drums operating at near engine rpm, then coming to a complete and sudden stop, and then accelerating to engine rpm instantly again on the next shift, it is advantageous for the parts to be lighter from a stress and reliability perspective.
A TH350 has a pretty decent size intermediate roller clutch (sprag) as well as a fairly heavy direct drum. The direct drum's weight and rpm is what kills the sprag. An aluminum drum would increase sprag life tremendously, however the aluminum part itself becomes a maintenance item that wears and fatigues.
Exact same scenario with a TH400.
I'll be brutally honest,
there is WAY too much emphasis placed on the rotating mass of a transmission as far as power consumption and ET is concerned by the average enthusiast and many builders.
I see it here all the time, and on other forums, and I've seen respected companies and builder makes some very misleading statements that at best are simply a lack of real knowledge by the builders/companies and at worst an outright lie for who knows what reason.
As an example (and this will create some arguments),
the age old BULLSHIT myth that has been circulating since I was a 13 yr old kid buying a wrecking yard TH400 to see what the voodoo was all about is that a Powerglide uses 15 HP, a Th350 uses 35 HP, a TH400 uses 45 HP, and a C6 uses 60 HP or something along those lines.
And my FAVORITE is when someone says "takes more power to turn".
Under what conditions do those units comsume that HP?
WHAT takes more power to turn?
Pretty simple high school physics teaches us otherwise, but if it was printed in a car rag or on the internet it must be true right?
If you put an TH350 against a TH400 for example...
Everyone says the TH350 is lighter, has less rotating mass, and should consume less HP, ET faster, etc.
It is true that it is lighter and has less rotating mass.
What's interesting is that I have NEVER seen an accurate weight difference or anyone actually weigh the rotating mass difference.
I have.
There is 10 lbs difference in overall weight between the two and that weight is entirely the difference in rotating mass. 10 lbs of additional rotating weight.
That's huge right? Nobody would add 10 lbs to their crankshaft if they could prevent it.
What's not considered is WHAT is rotating and when.
In first gear in either unit, half the weight is rotating at less than engine rpm. In 2nd gear half of it is NOT rotating at all. And on a 2-3 shift all of it spins up to engine rpm (almost).
What is also not considered is that the amount of power consumed depends as much on the RATE OF ACCELERATION as the weight difference.
In realistic terms, a 12-13 second 1/4 mile car is never going to see more than a couple of hundredths difference in a 10-20 lb overall/rotating mass difference IF that. In my experience it's not even a consideration until the car is running DEEP into the 10's, and then again, you have to balance reliability vs ET. Are you willing to give up ultimate reliability for .08 ET?
It becomes a completely different ball game in a car that accelerates fast enough to run 9's or quicker. You will see real ET changes then.
What else is forgotten about is frictional losses.
In an automatic transmission you have pumping losses and frictional losses.
Pumping losses...
A TH350 and Th400 have the same size pump gears. They are interchangeable. They run at approximately the same pressure for a given HP level. 160ish PSI stock, up to about 210-220 for a full tilt big HP unit.
Same gears, same pressure, same pumping losses.
So you're down to rotating and frictional losses.
In almost all the cases where we've gotten feedback on a TH350-TH400 swap using the same converter, the TH400 was slightly quicker.
Low 10 second car, TH350-400 swap, same converter and the car picked up .03-.04 in the 1/4.
I've seen it happen on slower cars as well.
In theory based on just the rotating weight and overall weight it doesn't make sense. In reality it's what we've seen.
My theory is that the TH400 has less frictional loss that in most cases makes it more efficient than a TH350 despite being heavier.
It uses a low band instead of low clutches. Cleaner release.
It has a much more rigid internal support design that keeps all that weight running true on center. It is well known that it doesn't eat bushings like a TH350.
So to finish my long-winded post,
the TH200 might be a neat setup for you, and it MIGHT give you a very slight advantage, but I'm not sure you would see the advantage you think you would.
It is a lightweight setup though. I think you might get more advantage from the 2.74 low gear than the actual weight change....
The TH200 is essentially a 200-4R without the OD section and a slightly more archaic VB design. It's very much similar to a 4L80E's relationship with it's predecessor the TH400.
I have the 200-4Rs living successfully at 600+ HP/TQ in low 10 second cars that weight 3800+ lbs. I have a handful of 200 3 speeds in combos something like yours. Stock Eliminator or cars that are looking for that last hundredth.
Many people are scared away by the stamped drums, smallish looking planets, and other features of the TH200 and 200-4R.
Another way of looking at it is this, the stamped steel drums and lightweight parts may in fact be weaker, BUT the parts being lighter are not causing damage to themselves. In other words the way that an automatic transmission functions, with drums operating at near engine rpm, then coming to a complete and sudden stop, and then accelerating to engine rpm instantly again on the next shift, it is advantageous for the parts to be lighter from a stress and reliability perspective.
A TH350 has a pretty decent size intermediate roller clutch (sprag) as well as a fairly heavy direct drum. The direct drum's weight and rpm is what kills the sprag. An aluminum drum would increase sprag life tremendously, however the aluminum part itself becomes a maintenance item that wears and fatigues.
Exact same scenario with a TH400.
I'll be brutally honest,
there is WAY too much emphasis placed on the rotating mass of a transmission as far as power consumption and ET is concerned by the average enthusiast and many builders.
I see it here all the time, and on other forums, and I've seen respected companies and builder makes some very misleading statements that at best are simply a lack of real knowledge by the builders/companies and at worst an outright lie for who knows what reason.
As an example (and this will create some arguments),
the age old BULLSHIT myth that has been circulating since I was a 13 yr old kid buying a wrecking yard TH400 to see what the voodoo was all about is that a Powerglide uses 15 HP, a Th350 uses 35 HP, a TH400 uses 45 HP, and a C6 uses 60 HP or something along those lines.
And my FAVORITE is when someone says "takes more power to turn".
Under what conditions do those units comsume that HP?
WHAT takes more power to turn?
Pretty simple high school physics teaches us otherwise, but if it was printed in a car rag or on the internet it must be true right?
If you put an TH350 against a TH400 for example...
Everyone says the TH350 is lighter, has less rotating mass, and should consume less HP, ET faster, etc.
It is true that it is lighter and has less rotating mass.
What's interesting is that I have NEVER seen an accurate weight difference or anyone actually weigh the rotating mass difference.
I have.
There is 10 lbs difference in overall weight between the two and that weight is entirely the difference in rotating mass. 10 lbs of additional rotating weight.
That's huge right? Nobody would add 10 lbs to their crankshaft if they could prevent it.
What's not considered is WHAT is rotating and when.
In first gear in either unit, half the weight is rotating at less than engine rpm. In 2nd gear half of it is NOT rotating at all. And on a 2-3 shift all of it spins up to engine rpm (almost).
What is also not considered is that the amount of power consumed depends as much on the RATE OF ACCELERATION as the weight difference.
In realistic terms, a 12-13 second 1/4 mile car is never going to see more than a couple of hundredths difference in a 10-20 lb overall/rotating mass difference IF that. In my experience it's not even a consideration until the car is running DEEP into the 10's, and then again, you have to balance reliability vs ET. Are you willing to give up ultimate reliability for .08 ET?
It becomes a completely different ball game in a car that accelerates fast enough to run 9's or quicker. You will see real ET changes then.
What else is forgotten about is frictional losses.
In an automatic transmission you have pumping losses and frictional losses.
Pumping losses...
A TH350 and Th400 have the same size pump gears. They are interchangeable. They run at approximately the same pressure for a given HP level. 160ish PSI stock, up to about 210-220 for a full tilt big HP unit.
Same gears, same pressure, same pumping losses.
So you're down to rotating and frictional losses.
In almost all the cases where we've gotten feedback on a TH350-TH400 swap using the same converter, the TH400 was slightly quicker.
Low 10 second car, TH350-400 swap, same converter and the car picked up .03-.04 in the 1/4.
I've seen it happen on slower cars as well.
In theory based on just the rotating weight and overall weight it doesn't make sense. In reality it's what we've seen.
My theory is that the TH400 has less frictional loss that in most cases makes it more efficient than a TH350 despite being heavier.
It uses a low band instead of low clutches. Cleaner release.
It has a much more rigid internal support design that keeps all that weight running true on center. It is well known that it doesn't eat bushings like a TH350.
So to finish my long-winded post,
the TH200 might be a neat setup for you, and it MIGHT give you a very slight advantage, but I'm not sure you would see the advantage you think you would.
It is a lightweight setup though. I think you might get more advantage from the 2.74 low gear than the actual weight change....
11-03-2011, 07:16 AM
#10
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I don't expect a night and day difference. Are all the hard parts good for 600? Do I just need better frictions and band? I'd like to reuse my torque converter.
11-06-2011, 01:05 PM
#13
Jake, I have found that the TH400 being quicker also, due to the L/R rear band versus the TH350 L/R clutches. When we went with the L/R turbulator steels here, the difference between the two was negligible. When we went down to "one" L/R clutch the TH350 started to see a slight gain over the TH400. The lower (higher numerically) rear end gear, the TH400 starts to take up more horsepower to get it up to speed that much quicker. Now the lighter the gear train is going to be better in most cases. When talking to Borg Warner about this many years ago, they said that once the L/R band is off, it does not matter what the rpm, there is no more frictional loss. But with the TH350/700R4/4L60E low/reverse clutches eat up more horsepower as the rpm goes up. The reason the Ford C6 transmission eats up so much horsepower is that the L/R clutches are very big and have a lot of drag, as compared to the TF727 that uses the L/R band. When we installed hand made reverse turbulator steels in the Powerglide, we saw some slight gains in MPH and a slight drop in ET. When building the 700R4 or the TH350, always add the L/R turbulator steels, as this will only help to reduce the drag that is encountered here. I thought I would add my 2 cents here.
11-07-2011, 08:00 AM
#14
Nice commentary Jake. Lot's of good detailed info that guys should take into consideration before considering a transmission swap.
About all I could add to that is the fact that the torque converter efficiency is paramount in any combination. I've chased converter issues in race cars off and on for years. I've seen a 4.70 car pick up as much as .3 because of a converter swap. That's testing the car in the same lane at the same track for many months on end. Once we were able to see that the chassis would take the full hit without delays or retards then we were able to see that we were running through the converter.
But, it wasn't that simple. The data would make you think that the engine was way rich, the EGT' were low (which implies a fat tune up) and the O2's were waaay lean. It was really interesting to see how much change the converter swap made in the engine tune up going downtrack. But the spark plugs were showing an ideal fuel ring. It was a very interesting lesson to go through with that client.
And in terms of parasitic losses... In real world experienced based terms, I've found that there is no real advantage when it comes to one tranny over the other in street/strip vehicles. Mainly because the car is at or around 450 - 550 h/p in the vast majority of the cars I've been a part of. Therefore, to me it boils down to driveability and long term durability when consulting with potential clients.
Now, when we get to the cars running in the bottom 6's and sub 6's then it is all about the performance and durability, I throw driveability out the window most times when helping a guy make his decision.
To anyone considering a tranny swap based on performance... I would suggest that they take a long hard look at the overall combination. Meaning, is the converter matched for that camshaft, heads, and rear axle gearing? Many countless times it is not!
g
About all I could add to that is the fact that the torque converter efficiency is paramount in any combination. I've chased converter issues in race cars off and on for years. I've seen a 4.70 car pick up as much as .3 because of a converter swap. That's testing the car in the same lane at the same track for many months on end. Once we were able to see that the chassis would take the full hit without delays or retards then we were able to see that we were running through the converter.
But, it wasn't that simple. The data would make you think that the engine was way rich, the EGT' were low (which implies a fat tune up) and the O2's were waaay lean. It was really interesting to see how much change the converter swap made in the engine tune up going downtrack. But the spark plugs were showing an ideal fuel ring. It was a very interesting lesson to go through with that client.
And in terms of parasitic losses... In real world experienced based terms, I've found that there is no real advantage when it comes to one tranny over the other in street/strip vehicles. Mainly because the car is at or around 450 - 550 h/p in the vast majority of the cars I've been a part of. Therefore, to me it boils down to driveability and long term durability when consulting with potential clients.
Now, when we get to the cars running in the bottom 6's and sub 6's then it is all about the performance and durability, I throw driveability out the window most times when helping a guy make his decision.
To anyone considering a tranny swap based on performance... I would suggest that they take a long hard look at the overall combination. Meaning, is the converter matched for that camshaft, heads, and rear axle gearing? Many countless times it is not!
g
Last edited by Gilbert@Ace Racing; 11-07-2011 at 08:05 AM.
11-07-2011, 09:04 AM
#15
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A lot of good information here. After more consideration, I don't think I'm going to build a 200 after all. Probably just sell my 350 and get a 400. That way I don't have to worry about transmissions again.
11-11-2011, 04:27 PM
#16
Thank you for sharing your experience guys and I really enjoyed reading this thread.
Unfortunately, most of the experts are so busy and they don't have much time to post in forums to share their "real world" experience.
For me, I think that the 4L80E combines the best of the two worlds (TH400 and 4L60E).
Unfortunately, most of the experts are so busy and they don't have much time to post in forums to share their "real world" experience.
For me, I think that the 4L80E combines the best of the two worlds (TH400 and 4L60E).
11-11-2011, 06:38 PM
#17
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1967 elcamino with a mild 406, had a 350 that i built with 3200 stahl. car went 12.70s all day. I work at trans shop so one day we pulled trans n put a 400 i had built with man rev valve body and a coan 3200 stahl and this was only change we made and the car never went faster than 13.0s. Just sayin in all my experience with slower cars the 400 is to much trans. Now if i was runnin nasty big block i wouldnt want nothin else.
