Best Stall post help I've seen (for noobs)
07-20-2016, 12:52 PM
#1
Best Stall post help I've seen (for noobs) I've been considering what stall to go with for nearly 2 months now. I have a '00 SS non-camed putting 364/360 to the wheels with 3.23's. Best E/T of 13.089. I may do a mild to med cam in the future but not sure. 75% of the folks I about on here say "get a 3600" but when I talk to Lane at PTC yesterday to place my order, he suggested a 3000 and said the 3600 would feel "mushy". Now I'm a bit conflicted again. I do want to go with PTC because they are local(sort of). I'm now leaning toward a "middle of the road" PTC 3200 or 3400. I want to be happy driving it around town and also get the most out of it at the strip, but I know there is a happy medium.
I came across this post from 10 years ago and it explains so much that I wanted help noobs (like myself) to keep from asking questions that drive you guys nuts. I've never driven or even ride in a high stalled car and I think this is a great explanation of several aspects of the stall in one nice neat little read. I hope it helps some others.
*Copied from Fuddle Racing*
1. Higher RPM Launches: Largely similar to "dumping" a clutch at a higher RPM, a higher stall converter allows your car to leave the line with more power hitting the wheels as you launch.
Here are a couple of examples of how the launches change when you step up to a performance converter. Variables such as different brakes, tires, and gear ratios effect how the converter stalls, but these will give you a general idea.
Example 1- Assume your stock stall is around 1600 RPM. Get into the car and hold your foot on the brake. Now at the same time you let off of the brake, stab the throttle like you are at the track. Keep a close eye on the tach. It will jump to about 1600 RPM and start climbing from there. If you moved to a 3200 stall, it would jump to about 3200 and start climbing from there. It gives you a huge punch by launching at a higher RPM and at an RPM that is more in the meat of your powerband.
Example 2- Again, assume a stock stall of 1600 RPM. Now, in drive, hold your left foot on the brake as hard as you can. Now slowly rev the engine with your other foot. Notice that about 1200-1300 RPM the tires start to break loose. Now imagine that you have a 3200 stall. You could now spin the motor closer to 3k before the tires started to brake loose.
2. Torque Multiplication: When an automatic transmission is launched, the torque converter actually multiplies the input torque. That multiplication is called the Stall Torque Ratio or STR. If you raise the STR, the amount of torque you have on launch also becomes greater. With a sticky tire, launches with a high STR can be down right brutal. STR
3. Shift Extension: Most automatic cars experience a dead spot immediately after the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. It will feel really strong all through first gear (with LS1's particularly at the top RPM because that is where LS1's like to be, high RPM's). Notice immediately after the 1-2 shift (and 2-3, if you get that high) that it seems to fall flat on its face for a couple of seconds. That is the dead spot and can feel like more than a couple seconds at the track. It feels weak until the RPM's get to where they should be, and the power feels like it comes back. With a stall converter, the RPM's do not fall like they do with a stock converter. Expect the RPM's to stay considerably higher after the shifts with a stall converter, completely getting rid of the dead zone.
4. Reduced Weight: (Does not apply to stock style converters)
A stock converter on an LS1 Camaro weighs 53 lbs. Our basic 245mm conversion weighs 30 lbs. While 23 lbs. of weight reduction does not sound like much, it is entirely rotational weight. The engine is now required to spin 23 less lbs. It now revs faster and considerably more freely.
Example- Take a short pole with a 53 lb. weight at its end and one with a 30 lb. weight. Try turning the one with the 53 lbs. and turn it by hand. Now try the same thing with the other pole. The lighter pole is considerably easier to spin. The same is true for the engine. The lighter one is easier not only to spin faster but to start spinning.
I came across this post from 10 years ago and it explains so much that I wanted help noobs (like myself) to keep from asking questions that drive you guys nuts. I've never driven or even ride in a high stalled car and I think this is a great explanation of several aspects of the stall in one nice neat little read. I hope it helps some others.
*Copied from Fuddle Racing*
1. Higher RPM Launches: Largely similar to "dumping" a clutch at a higher RPM, a higher stall converter allows your car to leave the line with more power hitting the wheels as you launch.
Here are a couple of examples of how the launches change when you step up to a performance converter. Variables such as different brakes, tires, and gear ratios effect how the converter stalls, but these will give you a general idea.
Example 1- Assume your stock stall is around 1600 RPM. Get into the car and hold your foot on the brake. Now at the same time you let off of the brake, stab the throttle like you are at the track. Keep a close eye on the tach. It will jump to about 1600 RPM and start climbing from there. If you moved to a 3200 stall, it would jump to about 3200 and start climbing from there. It gives you a huge punch by launching at a higher RPM and at an RPM that is more in the meat of your powerband.
Example 2- Again, assume a stock stall of 1600 RPM. Now, in drive, hold your left foot on the brake as hard as you can. Now slowly rev the engine with your other foot. Notice that about 1200-1300 RPM the tires start to break loose. Now imagine that you have a 3200 stall. You could now spin the motor closer to 3k before the tires started to brake loose.
2. Torque Multiplication: When an automatic transmission is launched, the torque converter actually multiplies the input torque. That multiplication is called the Stall Torque Ratio or STR. If you raise the STR, the amount of torque you have on launch also becomes greater. With a sticky tire, launches with a high STR can be down right brutal. STR
3. Shift Extension: Most automatic cars experience a dead spot immediately after the 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. It will feel really strong all through first gear (with LS1's particularly at the top RPM because that is where LS1's like to be, high RPM's). Notice immediately after the 1-2 shift (and 2-3, if you get that high) that it seems to fall flat on its face for a couple of seconds. That is the dead spot and can feel like more than a couple seconds at the track. It feels weak until the RPM's get to where they should be, and the power feels like it comes back. With a stall converter, the RPM's do not fall like they do with a stock converter. Expect the RPM's to stay considerably higher after the shifts with a stall converter, completely getting rid of the dead zone.
4. Reduced Weight: (Does not apply to stock style converters)
A stock converter on an LS1 Camaro weighs 53 lbs. Our basic 245mm conversion weighs 30 lbs. While 23 lbs. of weight reduction does not sound like much, it is entirely rotational weight. The engine is now required to spin 23 less lbs. It now revs faster and considerably more freely.
Example- Take a short pole with a 53 lb. weight at its end and one with a 30 lb. weight. Try turning the one with the 53 lbs. and turn it by hand. Now try the same thing with the other pole. The lighter pole is considerably easier to spin. The same is true for the engine. The lighter one is easier not only to spin faster but to start spinning.
Last edited by rybern; 07-20-2016 at 01:03 PM.
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staff23 (10-08-2020)
07-20-2016, 04:10 PM
#2
Fuddle 
I tried a TCI. I talked to a sponsor on here. Both gave me what I didn't want.
I talked to Greg at FTI, got exactly what I wanted.
I tried a TCI. I talked to a sponsor on here. Both gave me what I didn't want.
I talked to Greg at FTI, got exactly what I wanted.
Last edited by Jays_SSZ28; 11-23-2016 at 12:03 PM.
07-21-2016, 12:18 AM
#4
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16+ years ago I almost made the mistake of assuming a ~3500-ish stall speed would feel too "mushy" as well. I was certain that 2800-3000 would be better for my street car LS1. I talked to Mike (owner)@Yank and explained my goals at the time: mostly street use, perhaps a mild cam in the future, etc. (similar to you.) I told him that I thought something in the 3k range would be ideal, he told me that I would regret this and to go with a 3500 minimum, even for a stock LS1. He said that after a week or two of driving, the 3500 would feel like stock and that I might even wish I'd gone higher.
I'm so glad I took his advice and didn't bother with the sub-3500 stall speeds in the first place. Stall speeds above 4k are an acquired taste IMO, and some people will find them too loose without very high (numeric) gear ratios. But for the average user looking for great street performance from their LS1, a good quality 35-3600 stall speed with a 3.23 gear is just perfect.
I'm so glad I took his advice and didn't bother with the sub-3500 stall speeds in the first place. Stall speeds above 4k are an acquired taste IMO, and some people will find them too loose without very high (numeric) gear ratios. But for the average user looking for great street performance from their LS1, a good quality 35-3600 stall speed with a 3.23 gear is just perfect.
07-21-2016, 08:43 AM
#5
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i rode in a car with 3600 & 3:73's and it was a very good combo , normal driving was around 2k rpm vs my 3000 stall & 2:73's about 2500 rpm normal driving (not very pleasant imo) while you wont be unhappy with a 3k i think you'd be happier with the 3600. just my one cent. and yes my "dead spot" is gone , around 50 mph with stock stall. i plan on adding 3:42's to try and get rid of my mushy or loose feeling. the positive is when you hit the gas it will feel like an extra 75 hp or more!
Last edited by DANOZ28; 07-21-2016 at 08:51 AM.
07-21-2016, 11:59 AM
#7
^^^ Yank SS3600(or CircleD equivalent) with 3.73s' is considered the ideal combo. With my 3.23s',the Yank SS3600 has NO 'mushiness'. At a stop in neutral at idle and dropping it into drive,car will start to creep forward just like the OEM 1800 convertor. Driving normally around town,acts just like a stock convertor,but when you open it up,the 'beast' appears. Lately the trend and recommendations appear to be going to the Yank SS4000.
When necessary(high throttle/go pedal) puts you immediately into the higher good part of the rpm range instead of having to climb to it thru the lower horsepower range.
As I've stated in previous posts,don't make a mistake in your decision and have to do it twice.
When I was running 4.56s'(and the rear with 4.56s',as it's crying to be put back in,will be going back in soon),1st and 2nd acceleration was something to behold.
When necessary(high throttle/go pedal) puts you immediately into the higher good part of the rpm range instead of having to climb to it thru the lower horsepower range.
As I've stated in previous posts,don't make a mistake in your decision and have to do it twice.
When I was running 4.56s'(and the rear with 4.56s',as it's crying to be put back in,will be going back in soon),1st and 2nd acceleration was something to behold.
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07-21-2016, 01:56 PM
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Even a 2.73-3.73 swap is only worth about 0.10-0.15 seconds of ET reduction with a 3500+ stall already in place. But the 2.73s will feel a bit looser, so for those who are bothered by this and planning a gear swap to tighten things up anyway, there's obviously no reason to stop at 3.23. A nice upgrade for those folks would be a complete 3.42 rear, factory assembled, out of an M6 car that's upgrading to an 8.8/8.875/9", etc.
07-21-2016, 03:47 PM
#9
^^^ agree,my ideal was based upon what ratio is often,here on LS1tech,gone to. Always stall FIRST,ratio change 2nd IF desired. Gains with a stall are HUGE compared to gains with ratio change. I work on rears,have been since the 60s',building/setting up a rear is 'child's play' to me compared to for the average enthusiast.
07-21-2016, 06:52 PM
#10
I personally would run a 4000 stall. My first stall was a vigilante 3200. Than i switched to a circle D 5c (4000). Huge difference!! The bigger stall pulled like a monster and drove just as good and civil as the 3200.
I wouldnt be scared to drive a big stall. Its not bad. My current setup is LS6 heads, 233/239 cam, 4000 stall, 3.23. Easily drivable.
Again, dont be intimidated by going bigger on the stall.
I wouldnt be scared to drive a big stall. Its not bad. My current setup is LS6 heads, 233/239 cam, 4000 stall, 3.23. Easily drivable.
Again, dont be intimidated by going bigger on the stall.
07-21-2016, 09:43 PM
#11
I really appreciate all the input guys. This has been a tough decision. Spending $800 on something based entirely on other folks perceptions is hard for me. I'm a 44 year old picky tight wad and hard to please.... which makes it even worse.
Will the PTC 3600 feel the similar to a Yank SS3600? The PTC I'm looking at is the 10" single disk lock up. I've heard such great things about the SS3600 and the PTC. I'd like it to be tight until I stomp it.
PTC is local and I'd like to support them since they have a good rep.
Will the PTC 3600 feel the similar to a Yank SS3600? The PTC I'm looking at is the 10" single disk lock up. I've heard such great things about the SS3600 and the PTC. I'd like it to be tight until I stomp it.
PTC is local and I'd like to support them since they have a good rep.
07-21-2016, 10:59 PM
#12
No one can comment on 'Will the PTC 3600 feel the similar to a Yank SS3600?' someone would have to try both in the same car. So what's gonna happen if you get a PTC and it's 'mushy'? Some vendors offer a free 're-stall',but that means having to pull it out and re-install after it's re-stalled.
07-22-2016, 08:48 AM
#14
A recommendation,find some stalled LS1s'ask to get a ride in normal stop'n'go city driving. a long ride isn't necessary just normal 'granny' driving. make note of the tach,what stall is in it,what's the rear ratio,engine stock or higher power level than stock.
If I was down there,I'd give you a ride,even let you drive it.
If I was down there,I'd give you a ride,even let you drive it.
07-22-2016, 11:07 AM
#15
16+ years ago I almost made the mistake of assuming a ~3500-ish stall speed would feel too "mushy" as well. I was certain that 2800-3000 would be better for my street car LS1. I talked to Mike (owner)@Yank and explained my goals at the time: mostly street use, perhaps a mild cam in the future, etc. (similar to you.) I told him that I thought something in the 3k range would be ideal, he told me that I would regret this and to go with a 3500 minimum, even for a stock LS1. He said that after a week or two of driving, the 3500 would feel like stock and that I might even wish I'd gone higher.
I'm so glad I took his advice and didn't bother with the sub-3500 stall speeds in the first place. Stall speeds above 4k are an acquired taste IMO, and some people will find them too loose without very high (numeric) gear ratios. But for the average user looking for great street performance from their LS1, a good quality 35-3600 stall speed with a 3.23 gear is just perfect.
I'm so glad I took his advice and didn't bother with the sub-3500 stall speeds in the first place. Stall speeds above 4k are an acquired taste IMO, and some people will find them too loose without very high (numeric) gear ratios. But for the average user looking for great street performance from their LS1, a good quality 35-3600 stall speed with a 3.23 gear is just perfect.
07-22-2016, 11:10 AM
#16
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I have had a few different converters in cars over the years. Yank SS3600 on a bolt on car, Ptc 4500 on a bolt on car and now a Fti 3800 on my h/c car. Every companies converters will act differently even if they are advertised as having an equal stall speed. I will say and this is my personal observation after driving my own car and a few others, the Fti converters drive around town very tight at part throttle but flash quick and hard when the pedal goes down.
While I cant compare my Ptc to the Yank I had because there is to much difference in stall speed, I feel the Fti 3800 and Yank SS3600 were a very good comparison. They both drove nice and tight around town but really hit hard when flashing or stalling the converter up. The Yank had a little more shift extension between the 2, on my bolt on car I would shift it at 6200 and it would drop down to 5k rpm, with the Fti I had in my Cam only car at the time i would shift it at 6800 and it would drop down to 5k rpm. Once I added the heads to my car it now makes the Fti drop from 6800 to 5500 rpm.
On a final note just my opinion if I were in your shoes i would do a Fti 4000 and call it a day.
While I cant compare my Ptc to the Yank I had because there is to much difference in stall speed, I feel the Fti 3800 and Yank SS3600 were a very good comparison. They both drove nice and tight around town but really hit hard when flashing or stalling the converter up. The Yank had a little more shift extension between the 2, on my bolt on car I would shift it at 6200 and it would drop down to 5k rpm, with the Fti I had in my Cam only car at the time i would shift it at 6800 and it would drop down to 5k rpm. Once I added the heads to my car it now makes the Fti drop from 6800 to 5500 rpm.
On a final note just my opinion if I were in your shoes i would do a Fti 4000 and call it a day.
07-22-2016, 01:47 PM
#17
Running a Yank SS3600 w my 323's, Bolt on's, G5X2 cam....My car is perfect in every way ( for me)... The car accelerates quick, never gets out of the power band, .. Getting ready to add some ported 243's and a port matched FAST 92 in the coming months. Ran this same combo in my 00 Firehawk only diff was hand ported 241's... Made 430/403 to the tire... I expect to be around 440-450 w the set up for my SS vert...
Back to OP.... The Yank 3600 is a great torque converter however you use it.
JMO....
Back to OP.... The Yank 3600 is a great torque converter however you use it.
JMO....
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Rickys2003svt.cobra (09-10-2019)
07-22-2016, 03:35 PM
#18
Op, I was in the same situation as you last year during my m6 to 80e swap. Never had a stalled car before until now. I read thru thread after thread. I ended up going with a ptc 4000, and honestly I wish I would have went higher to around 4400/4500 area. To me, it drives perfectly fine. I have played with my lock up speeds and shift points to fine tune it. I have bolt on car like you as well, 3.70's in the rear. I would go bare minimum of a 3600 as other have said. Good luck.
07-22-2016, 07:36 PM
#20
You guys are awesome with your responses. I'm starting to think I need to look at a Yank for FTI to get tighter on the low end. I've heard great things about PTC and the $500 price for the 10" lock up 3500 is VERY appealing, but I've talked to 3 Lane and Tim and both of them steer me toward their 10" Street converter (3000-3200). Both have been very helpful and patient with me.
Since PTC is steering me toward a 3000-3200 and 90% of the folks on here are steering me toward at least a 3500(Yank, Circle & FTI heavily recommended) then I'm starting to think there may be a drivability difference between the PTC and these others. Maybe a SS3600 should be in my future.
Since PTC is steering me toward a 3000-3200 and 90% of the folks on here are steering me toward at least a 3500(Yank, Circle & FTI heavily recommended) then I'm starting to think there may be a drivability difference between the PTC and these others. Maybe a SS3600 should be in my future.