Bad 60 foot and poor ET with a 80 compared to Th400 - LS1TECH - Camaro and Firebird Forum Discussion



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Bad 60 foot and poor ET with a 80 compared to Th400

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Old 08-15-2017, 10:04 AM   #1
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Default Bad 60 foot and poor ET with a 80 compared to Th400

Searching the web for days and not having much negative feedback going to a 4L80 from a Th400. But me, several local buddies and strangers have all had a **** 60 and bad ET from a 4L80 swap from a 400. Anyone else have this issue?

So far I have run 2 different converters, 4 different chassis, 3 different 4L80s and they all 60 like **** with a 4200 converter or 4400 converter. Triple and single disc.

I'm just going to give up and go 400 at this point. 4-500 hp levels just don't work with them. I'm talking 3100 pounds with driver and 500+ Hp making a 1.68 60 foot time with a 4.10 and 26" tall tire. Just pathetic. Guys saying it is the converter but the MPH is suffering as well.
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Old 08-15-2017, 08:33 PM   #2
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The only major difference between a TH400 & a 4L80E when running down the track is the 4th Clutch Frictions are "Overruning" & you have the extra mass of the Overrun Hub & O/D Carrier. I have never seen these components affect 60 ft., ET's, Or MPH very much.

Can you tell me a bit more about the transmissions? What/Who's converters have you been running?
I had a guy come in a while back that swapped a 4L80E in place of a 4L60E with a similar compliant making around 500hp.......His Converter was supposedly a 4,200 stall. The converter was a 10 1/2" in diameter that flashed to about 2,900. The Directs were distressed & set to about .020" clearance from the builder trying to stuff 6 frictions in the drum, No High Rate return springs, No bleed hole in the drum, Rear Band set to tight & dragging. Along with a very heavy PR Spring.

Rebuilt it with the Directs set to .050" with 5 frictions, High Rate springs, .055 bleed hole, Rollerized Forward Hub & Output, A new Borg Warner rear band, Sonnax PR spring & Boost Valve Along with a 9 1/2" 4200 stall converter.......Night & Day difference.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:39 PM   #3
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3 different stock 4L80 transmissions. With and without HD2 shift kits. A circle D triple disc 245mm 5c rated at "4400". A revmax single disc "4000". Had both cut open and restalled but no difference since the **** sucker clearly didn't do a ****** thing but cut and clean.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:40 PM   #4
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Both will hit 4200 in third gear while sitting still and laying on the throttle. Would this effect a car that should trap 103+ and make it trap 98? That's the really confusing part.
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Old 08-15-2017, 09:49 PM   #5
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I'm not as much help as clinebarger but when switching converters you really need to document what each converter is doing. Especially when cutting for a restall that way you know which way they went with their changes if anything. I have my converters efficiency mapped every 2-300 rpm's from their flash point up to redline. I know it don't help you now but something to keep track of.
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Old 08-15-2017, 11:45 PM   #6
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3 different stock 4L80 transmissions. With and without HD2 shift kits. A circle D triple disc 245mm 5c rated at "4400". A revmax single disc "4000". Had both cut open and restalled but no difference since the **** sucker clearly didn't do a ****** thing but cut and clean.
The HD2 springs & snap ring got installed??
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Old 08-16-2017, 08:29 AM   #7
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Following because I was afraid of bad 60' times when swapping to a 4L80
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:22 AM   #8
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I will be going back to the track with the 80E in the fall.
It "feels" like the t350 with the 5C/6f triple.
It will boil my MT ET Pro's from a stop and blow them off on the 2/1 downshift.
This is with nothing special done to the trans.
I went a 1.45 60 with the 8" treemaster and t 350.
Did you try locking the converters on the passes?
I know that doesn't help the 60's tho
What's the engine combo?
Maybe my lil 406 is making a few more ft lbs down low that it "doesn't" seem that different to me.
Track don't lie tho..
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:45 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tug686spd View Post
I'm not as much help as clinebarger but when switching converters you really need to document what each converter is doing. Especially when cutting for a restall that way you know which way they went with their changes if anything. I have my converters efficiency mapped every 2-300 rpm's from their flash point up to redline. I know it don't help you now but something to keep track of.
Data log shows 1700 RPM drops in shifts. It is tighter than I want but I have not had this issue with a Th400 and a converter that did the same.

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Originally Posted by clinebarger View Post
The HD2 springs & snap ring got installed??
All of it.

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Originally Posted by hfthe3rd View Post
Following because I was afraid of bad 60' times when swapping to a 4L80
It's crazy that searching the web shows no issues with slowing a car, but everyone and their mother I talk to in person has the same problem at this power level. Evidently they are fine with power adders but that's a given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wht/73 View Post
I will be going back to the track with the 80E in the fall.
It "feels" like the t350 with the 5C/6f triple.
It will boil my MT ET Pro's from a stop and blow them off on the 2/1 downshift.
This is with nothing special done to the trans.
I went a 1.45 60 with the 8" treemaster and t 350.
Did you try locking the converters on the passes?
I know that doesn't help the 60's tho
What's the engine combo?
Maybe my lil 406 is making a few more ft lbs down low that it "doesn't" seem that different to me.
Track don't lie tho..
I have run this setup behind a LQ4, and 5.3 liter engines. Locking the converter netted 1 more MPH in the 1/8th. No ET change.
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Old 08-16-2017, 09:55 AM   #10
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I was planning on locking mine at the 1/8 where it was at 100 and ride it out to the 1/4.
What was it 60'ing with the 400?
When were you locking it?
103 that's a 6.50 in the 1/8?
I was a 6.75 at 3600 lbs
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Old 08-16-2017, 11:26 AM   #11
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may i ask why you dont just contact a sponsor proformabuilt and have them build you a stage 3 4l60e good to 1000hp?
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:16 PM   #12
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That would be the BLACK version of the 60E. $4800 + converter
The level 3 doesn't give a HP rating. It says unbelievable HP.

Either one he/me would probably be safe.
I didn't want to spend 6k with a converter for an OD trans.
That and 85%+ of the posts on here are 60e's with problems.
I probably didn't need the 80E either....but I also don't need the 3.06 gear as I have 4.30's
That would make a bad situation worse. With the 8" converter it would spin regular radials at 50 or below. The kickdown cable was never connected.
Yes my 80e is a big girl, yes it "might" cost me a few .1'ths but I drive my car much more with the 80 then the 350. I now can keep up with traffic on RT 80 at 80mph if I want instead of having to stay in the slow lane.
My t350 took 14yrs of me beating the **** out of it and all it had was a shift kit in it.
Same guy rebuilt the 80, so I'm pretty sure it can take my lil 406 as long as I don't beat it in OD.
It's supposed to be the same as a 400 essentially. That's why he probably went for the 80E over the 60E.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:16 PM   #13
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Lonnie at Extreme Automatics tells me that the 4L80s generate a lot more "charge pressure" to the converter. This increased charge pressure will make the torque converter act much tighter than it would with lower charge pressure. This was very notable when I changed from a TH200-4R to my current 4L80. I had to have circle D loosen my stall and it is still tighter than the old stall was in the TH200-4R. I have wondered if some type of pressure bleed might help the 4L80 launch better.
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Old 08-16-2017, 01:24 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedtigger View Post
Lonnie at Extreme Automatics tells me that the 4L80s generate a lot more "charge pressure" to the converter. This increased charge pressure will make the torque converter act much tighter than it would with lower charge pressure. This was very notable when I changed from a TH200-4R to my current 4L80. I had to have circle D loosen my stall and it is still tighter than the old stall was in the TH200-4R. I have wondered if some type of pressure bleed might help the 4L80 launch better.
I haven't ran mine yet..but had my 5c loosened up to a 6F.
What you said makes total sense especially if a engine has a big cam that needs it loose to idle.

Last edited by wht/73; 08-16-2017 at 01:47 PM.
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:18 PM   #15
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The converter charge pressure will have a bearing on converter stall speed as well as efficiency. Higher pressures tend to "tighten" the converter feel and lower pressures will help to "loosen" the converter a bit.

Think of the dump valves that guys run. They dump converter charge pressure to the pan, when on the t-brake, thus increasing the stall speed and getting into boost easier. On the release of the brake, the charge pressure will be going back to normal. This allows the converter to come back to the appropriate pressure when down track so that you have your efficiency and are not blowing through.
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Old 08-16-2017, 03:54 PM   #16
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Sold the 4L80 triple disc converter for 750. Buying a Th400 with converter for 800. I'll use the 80 in another car. I don't have time or money to "hope it works" and be pissed off that it doesn't.
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Old 08-16-2017, 10:25 PM   #17
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What were the 60's with the 400?
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Old 08-17-2017, 07:48 AM   #18
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1.55 with a 3.73 gear in the old 6 liter car. Dropped to a 1.7 in that car with the 80 I think.
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:42 PM   #19
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The 4l80 is efin heavy. lt was made for slow speeds, trucks, motor homes not performance cars, sorry
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Old 08-29-2017, 06:45 AM   #20
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The 4l80 is efin heavy. lt was made for slow speeds, trucks, motor homes not performance cars, sorry
While you are correct, they are heavy, no doubt, I would ask you to look at Speedtigger's signature and the (track video) 5.95 @ 116 mph run.
Just going off his sig that has the 80E in it.

A good friend of mine drove his 4000lb 71 GS Buick with a 460 BB Buick went mid 11's (spinning) at 117/118 and drove the 50 miles home.
3.42's and 28" DR's
Put the power windows down to get the time slips.
I'll reach out to him to see if it slowed up with the 80 vs the 400 it replaced.

This is with a stock rebuild 80E. No special stuff and a 3000 converter.
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